Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 1

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LadyStanley

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Back to historical hindsight....

The Kane trade was fine. The extension was not. Too much term.

The Vlasic long term deal was a mistake, especially with a NMC. 3 years would have been better.

Hanging on to Marleau, Thornton a bit too long? Letting Pavs go to free agency?

EK65 max deal too much. $7m/year max would have been better. I don't know that he'll ever get back to Norris caliber to be worth actual deal.
 

TheBeard

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I completely agreed with trading Brent Burns, it was the logical move and should have happened a couple years ago when it was clear we weren't winning anything but he still had a lot of value

What I don't agree with is wasting the capspace we gained in the trade on depth players that will only serve to make it harder to tank AND GIVING THOSE PLAYERS TERM

That's the real failure, locking up players that were bought out or not qualified by better teams to multi-year deals isn't a tank move, it's a move by someone with no plan or understanding of what they're doing

Looking at the moves as a whole it's impossible to tell if Grier is tanking but wasting assets and doing it inefficiently or if he's trying to compete but just has no idea how, either way it isn't good


He would still count against our contract total

Try as you might to justify it, Benning's presence in the organization limits our flexibility in a very literal way
He’s looking for experienced hard-working players while not forcing the younger guys into roles they may or may not be ready for. What’s the point of doing it for one year and then having to do it again next year? At least this way there’s some continuity at the worst and at the best we found some pretty solid younger pieces for reasonable dollars that can either be part of the team’s future or valuable commodities at the deadline next year. Everyone knows who a guy like Nino is and based on the contract he got, he’s hit his ceiling.
 

WTFetus

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Back to historical hindsight....

The Kane trade was fine. The extension was not. Too much term.

The Vlasic long term deal was a mistake, especially with a NMC. 3 years would have been better.

Hanging on to Marleau, Thornton a bit too long? Letting Pavs go to free agency?

EK65 max deal too much. $7m/year max would have been better. I don't know that he'll ever get back to Norris caliber to be worth actual deal.

Don’t need hindsight to know the Vlasic and Kane contracts were bad. They were bad at the time of the signing.
 

spintops

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Couture and EK65 seem content to stay for now (MG's comments) - But hopefully they change their tune after another really bad season. Really want to move Logan's contract before it becomes another really bad deal (even if you argue it's a negative contract right now, it's moveable IMO)
 

Alaskanice

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He’s looking for experienced hard-working players while not forcing the younger guys into roles they may or may not be ready for. What’s the point of doing it for one year and then having to do it again next year? At least this way there’s some continuity at the worst and at the best we found some pretty solid younger pieces for reasonable dollars that can either be part of the team’s future or valuable commodities at the deadline next year. Everyone knows who a guy like Nino is and based on the contract he got, he’s hit his ceiling.
This is logical. I agree. Yahtzee.
 

TheBeard

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Couture and EK65 seem content to stay for now (MG's comments) - But hopefully they change their tune after another really bad season. Really want to move Logan's contract before it becomes another really bad deal (even if you argue it's a negative contract right now, it's moveable IMO)
EK would never ask for a trade because his ego wouldn’t accept that none of the other teams would touch him and his stupid contract.
 
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weastern bias

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He’s looking for experienced hard-working players while not forcing the younger guys into roles they may or may not be ready for. What’s the point of doing it for one year and then having to do it again next year? At least this way there’s some continuity at the worst and at the best we found some pretty solid younger pieces for reasonable dollars that can either be part of the team’s future or valuable commodities at the deadline next year. Everyone knows who a guy like Nino is and based on the contract he got, he’s hit his ceiling.
Continuity is great to maintain when the team is good

We've had a lot of roster continuity over the last 3 years and we sucked ass the entire time, I don't know how valuable it has been maintaining the same old stale roster

The point of "do(ing) it again (the) next year" is that you really want to jettison the fluff off of a bad team

The one thing I do like about the Grier moves is that the bottom of our roster is CERTAINLY going to look very different next year, and that's going to be a very refreshing change, a lot of guys needed to go and they will, but that can be done without committing to an unproven roster for multiple years

One thing that I think really aided Toronto in their rebuild is that after their big tank year they cut ties with almost an entire roster worth of dead weight, outside of their graduated prospects they basically had 4 or 5 core roster players that they held on to to supplement their new core

You don't want guys who have been stewing through multiple years of losing seasons to spoil the incoming young talent, and I fear that locking depth players in to long deals on a terrible team basically guarantees some of them will still be here when our best young prospects are graduating and ready to contribute
 

Hodge

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I completely agreed with trading Brent Burns, it was the logical move and should have happened a couple years ago when it was clear we weren't winning anything but he still had a lot of value

What I don't agree with is wasting the capspace we gained in the trade on depth players that will only serve to make it harder to tank AND GIVING THOSE PLAYERS TERM

That's the real failure, locking up players that were bought out or not qualified by better teams to multi-year deals isn't a tank move, it's a move by someone with no plan or understanding of what they're doing

Looking at the moves as a whole it's impossible to tell if Grier is tanking but wasting assets and doing it inefficiently or if he's trying to compete but just has no idea how, either way it isn't good


He would still count against our contract total

Try as you might to justify it, Benning's presence in the organization limits our flexibility in a very literal way
You're not making any sense dude. How does bringing in players you consider to be bad make it harder for the Sharks to tank? Who cares about handing 2-3 years of term out to depth players when the team will not be competitive during those years?

We're not where Arizona was last offseason with unlimited cap space to take on cap dumps for picks. This is what a tank looks like when the previous regime has saddled you with a slew of terrible long term contracts for over the hill veterans. Move the ones you can and fill out the roster with NHL depth so our prospects can continue to develop and hopefully show that they're worthy of being called up.

Complaining about Benning taking up 1/50 contract slots is just whining for the sake of it.
 
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TheBeard

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Continuity is great to maintain when the team is good

We've had a lot of roster continuity over the last 3 years and we sucked ass the entire time, I don't know how valuable it has been maintaining the same old stale roster

The point of "do(ing) it again (the) next year" is that you really want to jettison the fluff off of a bad team

The one thing I do like about the Grier moves is that the bottom of our roster is CERTAINLY going to look very different next year, and that's going to be a very refreshing change, a lot of guys needed to go and they will, but that can be done without committing to an unproven roster for multiple years

One thing that I think really aided Toronto in their rebuild is that after their big tank year they cut ties with almost an entire roster worth of dead weight, outside of their graduated prospects they basically had 4 or 5 core roster players that they held on to to supplement their new core

You don't want guys who have been stewing through multiple years of losing seasons to spoil the incoming young talent, and I fear that locking depth players in to long deals on a terrible team basically guarantees some of them will still be here when our best young prospects are graduating and ready to contribute
There’s been NO continuity the last few seasons! Players shuffling up and down from the Barracuda. Constant line changes. It’s been a complete shit show. I also don’t know if bringing in guys from Colorado, Nashville and Carolina are guys that have dealt with a losing culture.
 

Juxtaposer

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Because the Luke Kunin contract is the reason the Sharks are in cap hell not the abysmal Vlasic, Karlsson, Labanc, Couture, Burns, Jones and Simek contracts.
You have such a black and white outlook on everything. No one is saying that DW didn’t sign some real bad contracts. But arguing that Grier has effectively used our cap space since he was named is just plain ridiculous. If you didn’t sign Nuutivaara and Kunin, you have the space to sign Niederreiter.
 

Hodge

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You have such a black and white outlook on everything. No one is saying that DW didn’t sign some real bad contracts. But arguing that Grier has effectively used our cap space since he was named is just plain ridiculous. If you didn’t sign Nuutivaara and Kunin, you have the space to sign Niederreiter.
For what purpose? Why does this team need Nino Niederreiter? So they can draft 12th overall instead of 9th overall? Why would Niederreiter sign for a discount with a non playoff team in a non hockey market with the highest state tax rate and worst travel schedule in the league?

Grier has used his limited cap space to fill out an actual NHL roster so we don't go into a fourth straight season with the likes of Weatherby, Leonard, Meloche or Lean Bergmann in the lineup. He is more concerned with revamping the Sharks' culture and style of play than chasing some delusional playoff dream.
 

Juxtaposer

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For what purpose? Why does this team need Nino Niederreiter? So they can draft 12th overall instead of 9th overall? Why would Niederreiter sign for a discount with a non playoff team in a non hockey market with the highest state tax rate and worst travel schedule in the league?

Grier has used his limited cap space to fill out an actual NHL roster so we don't go into a fourth straight season with the likes of Weatherby, Leonard, Meloche or Lean Bergmann in the lineup. He is more concerned with revamping the Sharks' culture and style of play than chasing some delusional playoff dream.
By that logic, why sign Benning? Wouldn’t it be better to have Meloche, since Benning is a good player and Meloche isn’t?

You keep saying the Kunin trade and signing is good because Kunin is bad, but the Benning signing is good because Benning is good. You can’t have it both ways.

I’m not saying we could have or should have signed Nino, although on a two year deal he definitely could have recouped us some picks at next year’s deadline. I’m just saying that there was space. And again, I’d rather spend the cap space we are using on Kunin on absolutely nothing.

Nino isn't signing that deal with San Jose. That is the same black and white thought you accused him of.
I didn’t say we should or would be able to sign him. I’m saying we would have had space. Don’t put words in my mouth.
 

Hodge

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By that logic, why sign Benning? Wouldn’t it be better to have Meloche, since Benning is a good player and Meloche isn’t?

You keep saying the Kunin trade and signing is good because Kunin is bad, but the Benning signing is good because Benning is good. You can’t have it both ways.

I’m not saying we could have or should have signed Nino, although on a two year deal he definitely could have recouped us some picks at next year’s deadline. I’m just saying that there was space. And again, I’d rather spend the cap space we are using on Kunin on absolutely nothing.


I didn’t say we should or would be able to sign him. I’m saying we would have had space. Don’t put words in my mouth.
Kunin, Benning, Sturm, Lorentz and Nutivaara all have varying levels of skill and roles but they are all established NHL players which forces young players from Eklund and Bordeleau on down to actually steal a job on the big club rather than have one gifted to them right out of the gate as the Sharks have been doing with their prospects for three years.

Personally I like four of those players and think they will provide a lot of what the Sharks have been lacking in their depth players for years, on and off the ice. Kunin seems pretty bad but he's also the youngest of the group by a fair margin with some pedigree and demonstrated scoring ability so for the price of a 3rd round pick I don't mind the gamble on untapped upside. I like locking him in for two years because it gives Grier control over the asset in case he does pot 20 goals in increased minutes.

Crucially, none of these guys will move the needle to the extent that the Sharks are no longer in lottery territory, which would be a legitimate concern of adding someone like Niederreiter. They all fill roles on the NHL club for now and can be easily moved on from down the road if younger players emerge.
 

hohosaregood

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I really don't think any of Grier's depth signings are going to block the kids in the next couple of years. They're generally only here for 2-3 years which is a pretty reasonable transition timeline for the 2019-2021 classes. Benning being around for 4 years is probably not going to be a detriment to our extremely shallow defense pool.

I would assume that the 2022-2023 season is going to be a season used to get the kids acclimated to the pro level while the big club is tanking. Some of the kids will probably get cup of coffee call ups this year and Nieto, Bonino, and Viel will come off the books next year.

Then 2023-2024 is probably when the 2019 and 2020 classes will start to establish themselves as NHLers. We'll still probably end up being tank bad. Then by the end of that season, Kunin and Lindblom and Barabanov are done.

I don't exactly see clear cut obstacles for the kids and if things go well. The only real forward pieces that are hard lock obstacles are Couture, Hertl, and Meier. The other 9 spots are generally going to open up as the prospect classes matriculate.

On defense, Ferraro and Karlsson are the only two of a high enough quality to block off prospects and even they're not guaranteed. On top of that, we only really have Merkley threatening to take a spot on defense. Hatakka and Knyazev are still pretty early in their development.

If DW Jr's drafting proves to be good, and McCarthy's development proves to be good, and we end up being tank bad and get an Adam Fantilli next year and a Macklin Celebrini the year after, you could have a young, skilled, talented forward core by the 2024-2025 season.
 
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weastern bias

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Then what is the point of your statement? Keep an empty $4 mil in cap space to sign no one?
Doing literally nothing would have been better, yes, not to mention the assets we wouldn't have spent trading for his negotiating rights in the first place
 

weastern bias

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Wasting all our capspace on unnecessary depth players also prevents us from taking on salary dumps in exchange for draft picks/prospects at the trade deadline

We wasted capspace in a flat cap environment on players that won't make a difference and committed to doing so for multiple seasons, these moves are bad
 

TheBeard

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Doing literally nothing would have been better, yes, not to mention the assets we wouldn't have spent trading for his negotiating rights in the first place
I don’t think that’s true. If we stood pat then we’re forcing some of the younger kids to play when they may not be ready. It’s clear there’s a long term plan for MG that involves not rushing anyone that doesn’t need to be rushed. It’s also probably why the team is stockpiling so many young goalies.
 

Hodge

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Wasting all our capspace on unnecessary depth players also prevents us from taking on salary dumps in exchange for draft picks/prospects at the trade deadline

We wasted capspace in a flat cap environment on players that won't make a difference and committed to doing so for multiple seasons, these moves are bad
How many of these trades even happened last deadline? IIRC the only one was Florida getting a 6th round pick for eating part of Max Domi’s salary. Oh no, what a missed opportunity.
 

Cas

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I don’t think that’s true. If we stood pat then we’re forcing some of the younger kids to play when they may not be ready. It’s clear there’s a long term plan for MG that involves not rushing anyone that doesn’t need to be rushed. It’s also probably why the team is stockpiling so many young goalies.
Play the slightly older guys with limited but still potential futures (like Chmelevski, Weatherby, Reedy, Verrenou), and don't buy out Balcers to sign equivalent or lesser players for more money.

You don't need to rush Gushchin or Robins because you don't have Sturm or Kunin. There is plenty of insulating talent that is probably not much worse (if at all) and is also cheaper.
 

Hodge

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Literally right now, half the league wants to move salary out to take runs at players.
So why aren’t these trades happening? There are plenty of teams with cap space and a demonstrated willingness to take on salary dumps like Arizona, Chicago and Buffalo.

When push comes to shove other teams just aren’t willing to lose 1st or in most cases even 2nd round picks just to shed salary.
 

TheBeard

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Play the slightly older guys with limited but still potential futures (like Chmelevski, Weatherby, Reedy, Verrenou), and don't buy out Balcers to sign equivalent or lesser players for more money.

You don't need to rush Gushchin or Robins because you don't have Sturm or Kunin. There is plenty of insulating talent that is probably not much worse (if at all) and is also cheaper.
I never really saw the appeal with Balcers and personally felt he wasn’t going to be better than he was. There’s a reason the offensively-starved Sens cut him and a reason florida basically signed him to a minimum contract. All of the guys you mentioned may see time up but only if they prove they belong. Reedy and Sasha showed flashes but for the most part our impression of them is genuinely influenced by how bad a majority of the other call-ups looked.
 
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