2022/23 Roster Thread XX: Heading into the Homestretch

[renberg]

That’s why they drafted York. And Andrae.

In a way, yes. Provorov was lauded for being able to lug the puck up the ice. That was all well and good but opponents learned to cut him off and he was screwed. He’s not a great passer in that he is slow with making and accepting passes. It’s one reason why making him the QB on the PP was a failure.
On another team he may adjust his game but I doubt it. His failures here are a shame. Some of it is on him-his attitude; unrealistic view of his own skill set. However the Flyers contributed to his mediocre play in that they tried to make him into something that he just is not,

 

[Beef Invictus]

Actually, we have no idea what Torts will push, other than youth and speed.

He's been clear that age is one factor b/c the rebuild is going to take multiple seasons.
He's also said that contracts may dictate some moves the next couple years (eat a year or two off to make a player easier to move)

So Laughton and Hayes are clear candidates to be moved.
Provorov wants out, and Torts isn't in love with him (expresses both respect and frustration).
Seeler can be moved if they get a decent offer, but more valuable as depth than a 6th rd pick.

Risto might be a candidate, but 4x5 makes him hard to move, ditto with Sanheim.
TDA is in the doghouse, you don't get sat down for 5 games coming off your best stretch of the season unless you did something serious to piss Torts off.
Atkinson is impossible to move and a veteran Torts will like to retain on a young team.

TK has two years left, they could wait until next summer or move him now - but unless things turn around very quickly, I don't see a big money extension during a rebuild starting at 28.

Hart probably isn't available, Ersson has struggled a bit in the AHL, Kolosov is years away, and they don't know if Fedotov can make it over.

I doubt Farabee, Frost, Cates, Tippett, Foerster, York, Andrae, Zamula or Attard are available unless someone makes "an offer you can't refuse." All will be 28 or younger in 5 years (except Attard 29), that is, in their peak years when hopefully this team is a contender.

He had every chance to play more youth like you claim he wants and only did so when forced to by injuries.

His words don't actually back up this claim, and his actions outright refute it

 

[TB87]

ASF voted for Provorov. Essentially minutes/role as justification

His reporting seems to be fact-based but he’s somehow, still, a hockey novice. Minutes played means f*** all in the grand scheme of things. Playing well consistently is the only thing that actually matters lol. This isn’t hard.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We were wrong. More importantly Hextall was wrong. The scouting staff was right.

The scouting staff didn't believe what Clarke claimed in his lies. I don't know how many ways and times this needs to be debunked for you. You just refuse to believe the truth.

It's also nutty to act like that pick is what sank the team, when Fletcher had years to fix it and didn't, and made a series of worse moves and destroyed the team in ways Hextall never did.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

His reporting seems to be fact-based but he’s somehow, still, a hockey novice. Minutes played means f*** all in the grand scheme of things. Playing well consistently is the only thing that actually matters lol. This isn’t hard.

He has a very archaic way of thinking when it actually comes to hockey opinions. It’s kind of funny when he does try to spout off some analytics as he doesn’t even have a basic level understanding of them.

He thought Fletcher was doing a good up until he didn’t sign Gaudreau this past summer. That was his ejection point. He’d argue with that Russ guy about it a lot prior to that where the Russ would trash Fletcher & he defend Fletcher.

 

[Beef Invictus]

As stated above, what is needed now days in defensemen is not what it was twenty years ago. In 2000 teams looked for size and strength-ex. Luke Schenn types. Now it's skill and speed. Passing ability matters, both making and receiving, as much or more than being able to carry the puck. Gretzky said it years ago: No one can outskate the puck. This has led to the Flyers defense becoming as poor as it is. They're looking for Hatchers in an age where Timonens are required.

Luke Schenn has made himself more relevant by working with Oates in the offseason to learn those skills. Player development is a never-ending thing that happens at all ages and stages.

Can you imagine the Flyers ever suggesting their dmen work with a forward to learn those skills? Their input is all "longer sticks! Lift heavy things!"

 

[Beef Invictus]

So I’m a little embarrassed to ask after years of being into hockey, but is a number 2 defenseman the leader of the second pair? Or a partner to the first? Is it like 1-3 and 2-4 together or 1-2 and 3-4 together?

It's usually what Starat said, but a notable exception was the Pronger/Timonen years where it was understood that Pronger was 1, Carle was 3/4, Timonen was 2, and Coburn was 3/4.

So really I guess the answer is "it depends"

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I can’t listen right now but anybody else wants to they do a rundown on all the teams that missed the playoffs & what their offseason outlook is. The Flyers are at the 34:00 mark.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think the problem with Provorov was development, scouts got fooled by his great conditioning, not realizing it also meant limited upside b/c he already had a NHL body and wasn't going to be developed physically.

Mentally, I think his biggest problem is he's fairly good at everything but not very good at anything. Which is why he plays a lot of minutes, he's passable in every role (even the PP), just doesn't stand out in any role. So his upside is probably a #2 paired with a #1 RHD, second pair if he's asked to do too much.

Development is absolutely a major problem with him. His skills have steadily eroded. He is no longer good at the things that made him a standout in his rookie year. He has had a series of coaches who had discouraged those things. Patrick is another player who had better skills when he hit the league and then he steadily regressed. Ghost was regressing until he made the decision to ignore the coaching staff and go his own way, doing what he knows is better.

We've been telling you for years the team destroys skill and refuses to develop or maintain it. The team tells you that. Their actions and hirings tell you that. Former players have told you that. The results tell you that.

Why do you refuse to accept it?

 

[renberg]

Shaw seems to be the go to guy for improving the play of defensemen. There seems to be some evidence that he dropped the knuckle dragging philosophy of the past for d-men. He was able to find a way to get decent minutes out of Seeler and improved play from Risto by moving away from relying predominantly on strength and size alone. Hopefully he’ll keep that up with other prospects

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In a way, yes. Provorov was lauded for being able to lug the puck up the ice. That was all well and good but opponents learned to cut him off and he was screwed. He’s not a great passer in that he is slow with making and accepting passes. It’s one reason why making him the QB on the PP was a failure.
On another team he may adjust his game but I doubt it. His failures here are a shame. Some of it is on him-his attitude; unrealistic view of his own skill set. However the Flyers contributed to his mediocre play in that they tried to make him into something that he just is not,

Provorov unfortunately was a bad pick.

If they were hell-bent on D, Werenski would have been much better & went next. And of course Meier & Rantanen followed Werenski, & Barzal & Connor, were available, too.

These numerous blown opportunities add up over time.

 

[Tripod]

The scouting staff didn't believe what Clarke claimed in his lies. I don't know how many ways and times this needs to be debunked for you. You just refuse to believe the truth.

It's also nutty to act like that pick is what sank the team, when Fletcher had years to fix it and didn't, and made a series of worse moves and destroyed the team in ways Hextall never did.

Fun fact.

Patrick played more games with Fletch as GM than Hextall. Crazy how when Fletch took over, all those smart scouts and Clarke did not tell Fletch to trade Patrick ASAP while his value was still high.

 

[Danko]

I don't think the problem with Provorov was development

Provorov unfortunately was a bad pick.

If they were hell-bent on D, Werenski would have been much better & went next. And of course Meier & Rantanen followed Werenski, & Barzal & Connor, were available, too.

These numerous blown opportunities add up over time.

Go back and watch his highlights when he was with the Wheat Kings. Most people listed him as can't miss and best defenseman in the draft.

He was incredible for his age, so the flyers played him young and often. he was putting up huge minutes when if the flyers actually had a decent defense he could have developed without so much pressure.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Go back and watch his highlights when he was with the Wheat Kings. Most people listed him as can't miss and best defenseman in the draft.

He was incredible for his age, so the flyers played him young and often. he was putting up huge minutes when if the flyers actually had a decent defense he could have developed without so much pressure.

 

[deadhead]

Shaw seems to be the go to guy for improving the play of defensemen. There seems to be some evidence that he dropped the knuckle dragging philosophy of the past for d-men. He was able to find a way to get decent minutes out of Seeler and improved play from Risto by moving away from relying predominantly on strength and size alone. Hopefully he’ll keep that up with other prospects

York progressed nicely, Risto learned to use his stick and improve his positioning, Seeler went from AHL plus to solid 6th D-man.

Sanheim is really the only one who stagnated, though more on offense (he's improved defensively but will always struggle to win puck battles). Sanheim should thrive in this scheme, but it may be a matter of learning "less is more," he tends to skate too much and hold the puck in the O-zone instead of making quick decisions.

The Friedman podcast suggested they want to work with TDA, I think for three reasons:
1) he's probably unmoveable right now, so what's to lose?
2) there's a lot of potential if you can teach him to be more disciplined, he doesn't have to be great on defense, just progress from terrible to mediocre
3) if they turned him around, he's probably give them a substantial hometown discount for two reasons, one good season won't create a hot market for him and he wants to be a Flyer.

Right now Flyers don't have anyone like him in the organization in terms of offensive skill.

Same in the AHL, Ginning, Zamula and Attard made solid progress this season. Ginning/Attard could be an above average 3rd pair and Zamula has a shot at the top four if he keeps improving. Attard, if he continues to improve his defensive fundamentals, could be 2nd pair with the right partner. On a team that struggles to score goals, he brings a big shot.

 

[deadhead]

Go back and watch his highlights when he was with the Wheat Kings. Most people listed him as can't miss and best defenseman in the draft.

He was incredible for his age, so the flyers played him young and often. he was putting up huge minutes when if the flyers actually had a decent defense he could have developed without so much pressure.

Problem has always been he's pretty much the same player he was at 19, almost zero physical development and the skill set is the same, does everything well but nothing special.

You see this in all sports, some players mature early and scouts make the mistake of thinking if a player is above his peers at 18-19, he'll be the same distance above his peers at 25.

 

[Danko]

Problem has always been he's pretty much the same player he was at 19, almost zero physical development and the skill set is the same, does everything well but nothing special.

You see this in all sports, some players mature early and scouts make the mistake of thinking if a player is above his peers at 18-19, he'll be the same distance above his peers at 25.

 

[chadateit]

A random thought on provorov

Remember his first season when many saw this "promise" that he could grow into a legit#1 dman. Remember he was using a shorter stick that session, and the flyers braintrust insisted on him changing to a longer stick after that. I don't think his puck skills have ever been as good as that first season.

I could be remembering wrong, or maybe just another prime example of the team's back asswards approach to development.

 

[3mFlyers]

Fun fact.

Patrick played more games with Fletch as GM than Hextall. Crazy how when Fletch took over, all those smart scouts and Clarke did not tell Fletch to trade Patrick ASAP while his value was still high.

Interesting point.

 

[Danko]

Other D-Men on the team with Provorov during his first 4 years...years where Development is criticial:


Year 1:

1. Mark Streit
2. Shayne Gostisbehere
3. Andrew MacDonald
4. Radko Gudas
5. Michael Del Zotto
6. Brandon Manning
7. Nick Schultz

Year 2:

1. Shayne Gostisbehere
2. Radko Gudas
3. Andrew MacDonald
4. Robert Hagg
5. Brandon Manning
6. Travis Sanheim
7. Johnny Oduya
8. Christian Folin

Year 3:

1. Shayne Gostisbehere
2. Radko Gudas
3. Andrew MacDonald
4. Robert Hagg
5. Travis Sanheim
6. Philippe Myers
7. Christian Folin
8. Samuel Morin

Year 4:

1. Matt Niskanen
2. Travis Sanheim
3. Philippe Myers
4. Robert Hagg
5. Shayne Gostisbehere
6. Justin Braun
7. Mark Friedman

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Go back and watch his highlights when he was with the Wheat Kings. Most people listed him as can't miss and best defenseman in the draft.

He was incredible for his age, so the flyers played him young and often. he was putting up huge minutes when if the flyers actually had a decent defense he could have developed without so much pressure.

Go back and watch Werenski his draft year. Watch Barzal (who was my favorite). Watch Rantanen and Connor.

They all had great film.

There was a huge debate regarding Provorov vs. Werenski as best defenseman.

Turns out the Flyers picked the wrong one. They've done that a lot over the years, and it adds up.

It's the front office's job to evaluate and project. They don't get excused if a message board liked a pick at the time but it was the wrong one.

 

[renberg]

This may be something and then again maybe not. Taking on early physical maturers is tricky. They are bigger and stronger than their peers at 16-18. Then there is that last burst of growth for men ages 18-21. Not all men get that last step. The key for players is what are they going to be at 22 and beyond? Often the game that the early maturers have is set for them and they don’t try to improve on it since it is what has made them successful up to that point. The later growers are works in progress and are more willing to grow their game. Unfortunately the Flyers seem to fall too often for the early maturers.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Not the stick talk.

 

[tucson83]

This may be something and then again maybe not. Taking on early physical maturers is tricky. They are bigger and stronger than their peers at 16-18. Then there is that last burst of growth for men ages 18-21. Not all men get that last step. The key for players is what are they going to be at 22 and beyond? Often the game that the early maturers have is set for them and they don’t try to improve on it since it is what has made them successful up to that point. The later growers are works in progress and are more willing to grow their game. Unfortunately the Flyers seem to fall too often for the early maturers.

it's all mental, with provy since his rookie year, he always making the same mistakes over and over again, for some reason he doesnt want to change his ways. i mean you can make the right picks at the draft but mentally they have to be willing to be competitive which is something scouts cant predict.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This may be something and then again maybe not. Taking on early physical maturers is tricky. They are bigger and stronger than their peers at 16-18. Then there is that last burst of growth for men ages 18-21. Not all men get that last step. The key for players is what are they going to be at 22 and beyond? Often the game that the early maturers have is set for them and they don’t try to improve on it since it is what has made them successful up to that point. The later growers are works in progress and are more willing to grow their game. Unfortunately the Flyers seem to fall too often for the early maturers.

Always need to be wary of the prospects who hit physical maturity earlier than their peers.

Provorov was physically mature in junior. It’s an advantage at the time compared to others his age, but you have to take that into consideration.

Others will catch up & perhaps keep improving, whereas those who hit puberty early may have already hit their peaks & plateau.