2022/23 Roster Thread XX: Heading into the Homestretch

[BiggE]

It was 2017, 6 years ago, who gives a f*** anymore?

 

[Tripod]

Patrick was the beddard of his draft year. When the devils let him drop people thought they'd outsmarted themselves. I'd believe scouts liked the top defender over the number 2 center but once Patrick fell it was a done deal.

No he wasn’t.

It was VERY well known that this was a 2 person draft between Patrick and Nico. And that BOTH guys were likely 60ish point guys who could have some seasons higher. Hell, the here were comparisons to Monohan but with better defense.

Bedard is expected to be a superstar. That draft was NEVER supposed to have a superstar. Certainly none were identified on draft day or they would have went #1.

I think MOST people, scouts, etc... thought that it would be a draft where MULTIPLE guys would have the best year from their draft class. Then the next year, it would be someone else. Very similar to 2011 in that way BECAUSE there was no expected superstar. No Matthews. No McDavid. Just a lot of good players.

Some guys have exceeded expectations, others way below. Injuries are always the x factor. If Patrick became a 60+ point guy along with a few higher seasons mixed in, few would have issue. Well that's what he was supposed to be. Injuries changed all that.

But he was never expected to ge what Bedard is expected to be.

 

[Striiker]

 

[freakydallas13]

Yeah but Notorious drafting contrarian McCagg had Patrick at 5th. You take that with Bob Clarke's quote and BOOM. Hextall's fault.

Please ignore literally every other source of pre-draft information when coming to this conclusion.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

As I've said before, I'm honored that people think highly enough of my opinion that they use it as an example that Hextall was correct at the time.

But I was wrong. I was not privy to nearly the amount of information that Hextall was, or should have been, privy to. I did not have a full-time scouting staff I was overruling. And it sure as hell wasn't my highly paid full-time job to invest all my time in getting that pick right.

I can admit I was wrong on Patrick. Hextall was especially wrong to overrule his staff. Some people here still can't come to grips that they were wrong, too.

 

[kudymen]

Lolz

Let’s defend Clarke against the fascist tribal mob!!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Why do sports execs do post-dated interviews about who they actually wanted to draft? Because they work.

Sometimes people are dumb enough to believe anything they hear. Sometimes they're intelligent people who believe there's always a veil to be pierced. Always ends up in the same place, though. And down goes the discourse with it.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

i cant wait for our draftee this year to be a bust..

#naximumpain..

you know its gunna happen.. whoever we select will amount to nothing.

 

[Chinatown88]

Why do sports execs do post-dated interviews about who they actually wanted to draft? Because they work.

Sometimes people are dumb enough to believe anything they hear. Sometimes they're intelligent people who believe there's always a veil to be pierced. Always ends up in the same place, though. And down goes the discourse with it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I am so sick of the coaches always being blamed. I think it is safe to say the Flyers need talent. New scouts need to be brought in and told what skills the Flyers are looking for. Draft off that. Screw the “consensus” and hockey media.

Well the coaches are also part of the problem. Everything is the problem.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The scouts recommended Heiskanen and Makar over Patrick.

Hextall overruled them.

There were questions about Patrick before the draft that I was not privy to, but league circles and scouts were. Which is their job, not mine.

That much is clear from quotes in the McCagg article that was published BEFORE the draft. Patrick was decidedly NOT a consensus #2 among actual NHL teams.

Hextall made a colossal mistake, and for some reason you continue to vigorously defend the pick.

McCagg annually says stupid things for clicks. He was accidentally right once.

It was the right pick at the time. As you agreed with. You're basing this opinion completely on hindsight and lies. That's a faulty process.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Flyers haven't been great at drafting/development, but they haven't been awful either.
Some bad luck, Patrick, Laberge, Morin, Lindblom.
Some bad high choices in thin drafts, Rubtsov, JOB, Ratcliffe.
A lot of solid picks, TK, Sanheim, York, Foerster, Hart, given their draft slots.
Some steals, Cates, Ersson, Lindblom, Zamula.

Problem has been strategy,
Should have rebuilt after the Carter/Richards trade. Waited 2 years.
Should have restarted the rebuild summer of 2019.
Should have rebuilt when they traded G in spring of 2021.
Instead, gradually leaked assets over a decade.

They've been awful.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bob Clarke was at the draft table. Were you?

You don't get to dismiss it just because you don't like him and what he said.

It had been reported in *multiple* places *years* before the Clarke interview that the scouts were split on Heiskanen and Makar, but their consensus was in favor of the two defensemen and against Patrick. But Hextall overruled them.

For example, both San Filippo and Meltzer reported it long before the Clarke interview.

After the Clarke interview, a reporter, I can't remember who, tweeted that he talked to a league source, and that Clarke was right that the scouts didn't want Patrick, but that it was Heiskanen not Makar whom they recommended.

Regardless, there has been enough reporting on this topic for a long time to believe with near certainty that Hextall chose Patrick of his own volition and against his scouts' preferences.

Pretending it's all a conspiracy and that Patrick was the team consensus choice is against the weight of the evidence. Same with acting like no team would have chosen a player other than Patrick at #2. McCagg's pre-draft article makes that clear.

Bob Clarke will tell any lie he needs to in order to smear someone he has a grudge against. He has a grudge against Hextall.

 

[Striiker]

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've stayed away from this board during the past season and I see it hasn't changed everyone from complaining with each other about their personal opinions.
What I mostly saw from the past season is that the Flyers have very few players I'd protect in the off-season. Some of the younger players looked better as the season was ending, but overall they are a bunch of projects waiting to happen.
I like Carter Hart very much, but for his sake I think he should be traded, he is wasting his career on this failing franchise. I'd like to see Hart playing for a competitive team with a chance in the playoffs.
I know I'll be shouted down for that idea, but just saw a very gifted star player play most of his career on this failed franchise, and now that he is on the back end of his career he is on an equally bad team. I don't like seeing good talent wasted on franchises going nowhere.

Oh no you won't be shouted down for that one. That's an uncontroversial opinion these days. Which says a lot about how bad things are

 

[Beef Invictus]

As I've said before, I'm honored that people think highly enough of my opinion that they use it as an example that Hextall was correct at the time.

But I was wrong. I was not privy to nearly the amount of information that Hextall was, or should have been, privy to. I did not have a full-time scouting staff I was overruling. And it sure as hell wasn't my highly paid full-time job to invest all my time in getting that pick right.

I can admit I was wrong on Patrick. Hextall was especially wrong to overrule his staff. Some people here still can't come to grips that they were wrong, too.

He didn't overrule his staff. That's a lie Clarke made up, refuted by other leaks.

 

[Striiker]

They've been awful.

The players have literally seen more success when they’ve ignored the coaches and instead played the way they knew worked.

Multiple players have admitted to being happy to get away from this teams awful coaching/management and their horrible archaic ways.

 

[freakydallas13]

I've posted about the "when" a ton of times.

San Filippo article, Jan. 4, 2021: Nolan Patrick Officially Back with the Flyers, but He Doesn't Really Want to Talk About It

"There’s a reason he was picked No. 2 overall in the 2017 NHL entry draft, even if the consensus in the Flyers draft room was to go with a defenseman like Miro Heiskanen or Cale Makar. Then-GM Ron Hextall went against the grain and took the big center who came into the previous season as the consensus No. 1 prospect available in the draft."

And ASF had mentioned it on Snow the Goalie prior to that.

Meltzer wrote about it in July 2021: HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Free Agency Day 1: Flyers recap and analysis

"In hindsight, was Hexy wrong to overrule his scouts? Probably. While there was no specific consensus between Patrick, Heiskanen and Makar, apparently enough scouts to form a consensus would have advocated for either of the latter two (apparently with Heiskanen being the preference because Makar was a Junior-A player, which entailed more of a leap of faith). Ron felt differently, strongly wanting the big righthanded center who'd been the virtual unanimous No. 1 candidate leaguewide heading into 2016-17."

The Clarke interview was in January 2022.

Ah yes, January 2021. No reason you don't hear about disorder in who to draft in 2017 until this point. None at all.

Very strange coincidence that no one talks about this until years after Patrick is drafted.

Veeeeeerrrrrrry strange.

 

[Magua]

My favorite part about the Patrick pick totally ruining the franchise discourse is they were slated to pick 13th. Yes, it stings, even if they made the chalk pick. But it’s also not as if they went scorched earth for that pick. Fletcher traded the 13th overall pick (+) to rent a 3rd pair defenseman.

It was a stroke of superb luck in the first place. And it’s impossible to separate Patrick’s brain issues — he looked like he was on the path to being at least a useful player in his first 2 seasons. Him “busting” is complicated. And if the Flyers didn’t win the 2nd pick, I also don’t expect them to trade Schenn. Which means this talent deprived team would not have Farabee or Frost.

In the end, it’s an immeasurably boring topic with nothing to learn. It’s a tactful distraction.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Ah yes, January 2021. No reason you don't hear about disorder in who to draft in 2017 until this point. None at all.

Very strange coincidence that no one talks about this until years after Patrick is draft.

Veeeeeerrrrrrry strange.

I’m pretty sure the first time it came up was in September during the SCF where the Stars were playing.

 

[GKJ]

That Clarke podcast with Strickland has had an astounding butterfly effect on the future events of the organization. The guy just couldn’t help himself in burying Hextall and saying Fletcher needed more time (when he was specifically brought in for the opposite despite his resume not being that) and the comments on 32 Thoughts just completely exposed everyone in Voorhees to where the influence of the advisors could no longer be ignored by people who knew not to talk about it.

 

[freakydallas13]

I’m pretty sure the first time it came up was in September during the SCF where the Stars were playing.

Even less suspicious.

 

[deadhead]

My favorite part about the Patrick pick totally ruining the franchise discourse is they were slated to pick 13th. Yes, it stings, even if they made the chalk pick. But it’s also not as if they went scorched earth for that pick. Fletcher traded the 13th overall pick (+) to rent a 3rd pair defenseman.

It was a stroke of superb luck in the first place. And it’s impossible to separate Patrick’s brain issues — he looked like he was on the path to being at least a useful player in his first 2 seasons. Him “busting” is complicated. And if the Flyers didn’t win the 2nd pick, I also don’t expect them to trade Schenn. Which means this talent deprived team would not have Farabee or Frost.

In the end, it’s an immeasurably boring topic with nothing to learn. It’s a tactful distraction.

If they pick 13th, they take Suzuki, so they still might have traded Schenn during the draft.

But at this point, whining about Holmgren, Hextall or Fletcher is pointless. Ancient history.
All that matters is the rebuild going forward.

 

[Striiker]

I remember it being mentioned back when Clarke was initially telling the Patrick/Makar/Hextall lies but another hint that this is all bullshit is that they fired Pryor at the same time they fired Hextall.

If Hextall was just being a stubborn prick and ignoring all the poor powerless scouts (who were apparently doing an amazing job and correctly come to the consensus that Makar was going to be the best of that draft), why would they fire the director of scouting?

Also, if Clarke is perfectly fine with throwing GMs under the bus to innocently point out reasons why the team is where it is, why has he never a single peep about Holmgren or Fletcher? Almost seems like this is all about a grudge against the one specific person.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We really can't look at the board at 13 and say anything with confidence. Just flipping two non-Flyers teams above them could change the rest of the draft. We have no idea and never will.

Something I did forget about that draft that made me laugh was that there was a public non-McCagg board without the consensus top 2. Kournianos had Patrick 1 and Casey Mittlestadt(!!) at 2.