2022/23 Roster Thread XVII: The Days are Getting Longer

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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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I know I mentioned it, he had played wing before he moved to center in NY.
I have no idea how to search posts, but I'm sure one of the "gotcha" experts can do so.

Lol....you JUST cherry picked metrics.

Liar and a hypocrite. Quite the combo.
Wait, if it shows what you don't like it's "cherry picking" - but if it shows what you do like, it's just data.
If I had shown the improvement in Frost's offense, I'm sure you'd be applauding, Mr. "Hypocrite."

People used "fake stats" to show he was better defensively, but that wasn't cherry picking?
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
79,245
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Nova Scotia
I know I mentioned it, he had played wing before he moved to center in NY.
I have no idea how to search posts, but I'm sure one of the "gotcha" experts can do so.


Wait, if it shows what you don't like it's "cherry picking" - but if it shows what you do like, it's just data.
If I had shown the improvement in Frost's offense, I'm sure you'd be applauding, Mr. "Hypocrite."

People used "fake stats" to show he was better defensively, but that wasn't cherry picking?
Lol....you are smothering under the avalanche dude.

You said "I don't care about some cherry picked metrics" then proceeded to post dome cherry picked metrics. That makes you a hypocrite. Deal with it.

You have been caught in many lies and never apologize. It's ok to say you were wrong. It really is. You should try it sometime.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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I know I mentioned it, he had played wing before he moved to center in NY.
I have no idea how to search posts, but I'm sure one of the "gotcha" experts can do so.


Wait, if it shows what you don't like it's "cherry picking" - but if it shows what you do like, it's just data.
If I had shown the improvement in Frost's offense, I'm sure you'd be applauding, Mr. "Hypocrite."

People used "fake stats" to show he was better defensively, but that wasn't cherry picking?
You really would be better off on HockeySocial.
 
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wasup

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Mar 21, 2018
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Has anyone heard an update on Laczynski ? I have not heard a peep but am very interested to see what they will do between Brown and him . I know what should happen but that has nothing to do with will happen .
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Has anyone heard an update on Laczynski ? I have not heard a peep but am very interested to see what they will do between Brown and him . I know what should happen but that has nothing to do with will happen .
Nothing peeping since he got hurt.
 

Magua

Entirely Palatable Product
Apr 25, 2016
38,701
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Huron of the Lakes
first ten games, xGA/60: 3.09
Next 16 games, xGA/60: 2.47
Since Dec 7: xGF/60: 2.53

How many times have you said we should throw out the first 10-15 games? Because Tortorella hadn’t worked his magic on the team or some shit. The team was certainly an unmitigated disaster.

So, now, you’re posting non-contextual (on ice) stats that include that very sample of the team getting slaughtered to make an individual point about Frost improving? Vlad already said yesterday his individual defensive metrics were actually highest in the first month+.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Yes, poor Frost, he'd be an allstar if he hadn't been sabotaged by three different HCs and ruined by a couple months in the AHL.
It's nice that he's finally turning it around, but this mantra that he's been smothered and is improving despite coaching is just silly.

Any who watches him can see that he's much stronger than he was at 20, and far more responsible defensively.
That isn't an accident, it's what they've been stressing for him for years.
And he's spending less time on the perimeter and more pushing plays in traffic.

He's not going to make his living in the slot, or as a forechecker or be a Selke candidate.
But being functionally competent in these areas, and putting out more effort on the back check, has made him a better player.
Next step is to improve his faceoffs. 45% isn't good enough for a 2C.
 
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VladDrag

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Feb 6, 2018
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I don't care about some cherry picked metrics!

I watch the games, Frost clearly picked up his game, and was more aggressive on the back check and more physical chasing the puck. And that's when his PT increased.
first ten games, xGA/60: 3.09
Next 16 games, xGA/60: 2.47
Since Dec 7: xGF/60: 2.53
Dead, you do realize these metrics you just posted are cherry picked? xGA is a metric that has zero built in context.
 

freakydallas13

Registered User
Jan 30, 2007
7,570
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Vancouver
I don’t cherry pick. I create irrational, illogical, completely fabricated falsehood to explain my use of cherry picked stats.
DH posting in real time:

70a.png


How many times have you said we should throw out the first 10-15 games? Because Tortorella hadn’t worked his magic on the team or some shit. The team was certainly an unmitigated disaster.

So, now, you’re posting non-contextual (on ice) stats that include that very sample of the team getting slaughtered to make an individual point about Frost improving? Vlad already said yesterday his individual defensive metrics were actually highest in the first month+.
Schrodinger's first 15 games, where how important they are depends on how you can interpret them to push your cherry picked narrative.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,115
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Dead, you do realize these metrics you just posted are cherry picked? xGA is a metric that has zero built in context.
It has more context than GA, which is highly dependent on goalie play.

GA is just half of +/-, which has value only in large samples and relative to teammates (i.e. large enough sample that goalie play averages out, and relative to teammates b/c they're playing in front of the same goalies).
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,115
22,256
Whoop de doo. :laugh:

It still has no context.
Neither does any hockey metric then. They're all somewhat bogus, based on naive extrapolations off biased data.
xGA is better than GA as a predictor, but GA is obviously a better measure of actual production.
 

Hextallent63

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
3,250
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Yes, Torts was responsible for JVR and Allison being injured. And Hayes struggling at center. And Frost playing bad defense (you don't need good wings to back check).
i think alot of it has to do with torts realizing how bad the team was once the season got started. along with hayes not playing torts' game.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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That's not true. You just say this because you don't actually understand the other metrics.
I understand them, I've read the sites and how they're determined.

All these metrics are flawed to some extent, and none of those sites seem to provide diagnostic statistics that might suggest whether they're statistically significant (F-test, T-test, etc.).

And the raw data is often flawed or somewhat subjective. There a high danger chance based on distance, and then there's what you actually see on TV.

Which doesn't mean it's useless, it's just that all these numbers should be treated with healthy skepticism.

"All models are wrong, some models are useful."
 
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Hextallent63

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Oct 13, 2011
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TK's first three years he was lousy when he wasn't on the first line, Voracek also fell off but not nearly as much as TK.
In his fourth year he learned how to play without G and Couts carrying his butt.
That's when he became a true top six forward.
yea but tk thrived early in certain situations very early in his career because of the type of player he is. kind of how cates is, playing with the players he is playing with. two different types of players.

It's not as easy as "just play with Couts and Giroux and you'll produce!" You have to have skill.

You're really diminishing TK. And you're wrong. Back when we were watching him and seeing obvious top 6 talent waiting to be used, you insisted it wasn't there and he belonged on the 4th line. Then he got the usage, and lo and behold, he was a top 6 player after all. All because you had to defend every single decision Hakstol made.

Doing the same thing with Frost to defend different people. Most of us here watch the players for their own sake. It's pretty clear you watch them selectively to try and build a narrative in defense of the chosen idol of the time.
frost could be doing what he is doing right know a couple seasons ago, in my humble opinion. but flyers.
 

VladDrag

Registered User
Feb 6, 2018
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I understand them, I've read the sites and how they're determined.

All these metrics are flawed to some extent, and none of those sites seem to provide diagnostic statistics that might suggest whether they're statistically significant (F-test, T-test, etc.).

And the raw data is often flawed or somewhat subjective. There a high danger chance based on distance, and then there's what you actually see on TV.

Which doesn't mean it's useless, it's just that all these numbers should be treated with healthy skepticism.

"All models are wrong, some models are useful."
You don’t understand them. I have had to correct you twice this season alone in what xGF actually is.

And, yes sites do post their backup information.. This is you just making shit up again. Many of these sites also present data and findings at annual regional hockey statistics conferences.

Here is some light reading for you.




 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,115
22,256
"Additionally, we decided to use an “ensemble” of these algorithms to fit our SPM model (here’s wikipedia’s explanation). Given that we wanted to use our model for both long-term and in-season (read: small sample) analysis and evaluation, we found using a collection of various algorithms blended together allowed us to better fit the long-term RAPM outputs for the ultimate use in our WAR model. After much testing and tuning, we found that using three algorithms for each component was the best approach."

Now any statistician would tell you that the statistical properties for such an amalgamation of models is unknown.

This is data mining, pure and simple:

"Each “tuning” iteration consisted of 300 cross-validation runs where a model was trained on 80% of the data and tested on the 20% of data that was held out. The results of these 300 runs were then averaged. This process was repeated, each time adjusting the features that were included in each algorithm until the best set of features was achieved based on the aggregated root-mean-square error for a given tuning iteration. This was done for all 5 of the algorithms for each of the individual components (EV Offense, SH Defense etc). In total, we allowed five algorithms to be used for the 8 component models, which means 40 total algorithms were trained and tuned using the above process. Of those 40 algorithms, we selected the three best for each component, which means 24 algorithms were used in total to create the eight SPM component models (remember 4 components, split by position)."

"Finally, what we might actually want to look at in this case is something akin to the t-values in a linear regression output"

Which is very generous. "Akin." What they're measuring is how well their ad hoc model fits their data.

The team strength adjustment is also ad hoc "We then determine which multiplication factor results in the player summed values that most closely mirror the 11-year RAPM that the models were trained on."

I could go on and on, but the point is that they are "curve fitting" through applying a set of models and picking the one that gives the best results. Which isn't a statistically valid approach, but they're just creating a descriptive model that basically assumes results aren't stochastic, so it doesn't matter - they're fitting an ad hoc model to results, not an explanatory model to predict outcomes.

Point is that their results are suggestive, but nothing more.
Nothing wrong with that, but using EV numbers as if they're "gospel" is foolish.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
56,996
45,417
Love it when a sad old contrarian who gets everything wrong tries to explain how it’s actually everyone else who is wrong.
 
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