2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[deadhead]

Solid post until the bold. Who cares about Jake as not relevant.

Relevant to the mindset of the Flyers well before Fletcher, giving Jake that contract and then signing JVR negated the point of the B Schenn trade. This nonsense didn't start with Fletcher. The team has never accepted even taking a step back and reloading, much less rebuilding.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Relevant to the mindset of the Flyers well before Fletcher, giving Jake that contract and then signing JVR negated the point of the B Schenn trade. This nonsense didn't start with Fletcher. The team has never accepted even taking a step back and reloading, much less rebuilding.

the post was about Hayes. You put out some solid points. So in terms f that not relevant what the prior GM did.

Your trying to show Chuck isn't that bad by showing what the prior GM did. Chuck is 100x worse.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hayes was signed to play 2C for AV, who had coached him in NY, at age 27.
Three years and a series of injuries later, he is a bad fit at center for Torts, whose teams play a more aggressive style than AV.
Hayes has clearly lost a stride, his offensive skills are fine, but he struggles on defense, partially a lack of inclination, partially a lack of speed.
Don't see what's so complicated about that.

Hayes was overpaid at 7x7, Voracek was overpaid at 8x8.25, both starting at age 27.
Both were contracts you give only if you're a player or two away from competing for a Cup and see a limited window (i.e. you don't care about the out years).

The very second he starts playing C again your tune will change.

 

[VladDrag]

A significant problem in trading Hayes, which has been completely created by the Flyers themselves, is that other teams know the issues between Hayes and Torts. Other teams are not likely to give full value, whatever that ends up being for Hayes.

 

[deadhead]

Hayes won't be playing center herem at least not in a major role.
He may in a scheme that's more conservative where the D-men can cover for him.

Torts has pretty much stuck with Frost and Cates for the past month as his top two centers.
3C is more fluid, with both Hayes and Laughton leaving something to be deserved.

A significant problem in trading Hayes, which has been completely created by the Flyers themselves, is that other teams know the issues between Hayes and Torts. Other teams are not likely to give full value, whatever that ends up being for Hayes.

Meh, CBJ got Jones for Johansen after he ended up in Torts doghouse.
Some teams may conclude that Torts is the problem and gamble on Hayes.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

A significant problem in trading Hayes, which has been completely created by the Flyers themselves, is that other teams know the issues between Hayes and Torts. Other teams are not likely to give full value, whatever that ends up being for Hayes.

I dont think this effects any value at all. Team sknow what they are getting from Hayes.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Torts says it so it’s the be all end all.

And by end all, I mean it ends all of the shit that’s been said for years defending players like Hayes.

It has nothing to do with what the current situation. It’s just the constant defense of the one that is seen as “in power” in the organization.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Teams don't like taking on long-term salary commitments at the TDL, ties their hands come summer.
So I don't see Hayes moving until the summer, I could see $2M retained, 3x5 for a 50+ point forward is reasonable.
Laughton is an exception, $3M won't kill most team's cap going forward, and he has the skill set PO teams like in their bottom six.

If JVR keeps scoring, he'll be a hot commodity at 50% retained, b/c that will fit most budgets.

Braun and Seeler will have value as depth additions (in case of injury, break glass).
MacEwen might have value to a team that a GM sees as soft (same with Seeler).

Generally, teams don’t like taking long-term salary at the deadline, but Hayes may prove an exception.

For a contender gunning for a run, landing a hard-to-find scoring-line center who is only 30 & will only cost $3.5-$4M (w/ Flyers retention) may very well be worth assuming 3 more seasons.

 

[renberg]

Hayes was an ass under AV thinking that he was a club leader with his covey of coach’s pets which split the room. Despite his play on the PK, he was a defensive liability. He can score but he’s always been a puck hog. He has size but not much quickness. Nothing has changed with him under Yeo or Torts. He is what he is and the league knows it. If a team has a breakdown at center heading going into the POs, he’d be as good of a get that they would be able to find if the Flyers retained

 

[FlyerNutter]

Hayes was an ass under AV thinking that he was a club leader with his covey of coach’s pets which split the room. Despite his play on the PK, he was a defensive liability. He can score but he’s always been a puck hog. He has size but not much quickness. Nothing has changed with him under Yeo or Torts. He is what he is and the league knows it. If a team has a breakdown at center heading going into the POs, he’d be as good of a get that they would be able to find if the Flyers retained

I'm not a Hayes fan, but are we really doing the thing again where it's all on the players - and the genius HC knows all?

Torts is an outdated POS, that has no clue how to coach a player that doesn't fit into his exact ideal mold. He gives off the vibe he would put a prime Patrick Kane in his doghouse.

If they magically want to switch the narrative that Hayes has go at any cost so be it, but catering to the whims of John Tortorella in 2022 is going to be a huge mistake. If they wanted him gone so badly, the way to do it would be to continue to feed him minutes - and keep the coaches frustrations private.

Whatever little possible logical trade avenue there was, Torts has managed to kill himself. Guy is a moron.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Generally, teams don’t like taking long-term salary at the deadline, but Hayes may prove an exception.

For a contender gunning for a run, landing a hard-to-find scoring-line center who is only 30 & will only cost $3.5-$4M (w/ Flyers retention) may very well be worth assuming 3 more seasons.

This only works if no other GM has ever seen Hayes play.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'm not a Hayes fan, but are we really doing the thing again where it's all on the players - and the genius HC knows all?

Torts is an outdated POS, that has no clue how to coach a player that doesn't fit into his exact ideal mold. He gives off the vibe he would put a prime Patrick Kane in his doghouse.

If they magically want to switch the narrative that Hayes has go at any cost so be it, but catering to the whims of John Tortorella in 2022 is going to be a huge mistake. If they wanted him gone so badly, the way to do it would be to continue to feed him minutes - and keep the coaches frustrations private.

Whatever little possible logical trade avenue there was, Torts has managed to kill himself. Guy is a moron.

The alleged “outdated” “moron” dino sure has done well with TK & Tippett this season, & numerous young players throughout his long coaching career.

The outdated moron played Werenski as a rover & is trying to get York to be more of an active rover, as well.

The mistake would be putting Hayes ahead of the team. That’s exactly the type of mentality Torts is eliminating. If you don’t buy in, then you’ll hear about it & probably won’t be around to see next season. This is about molding a team, not catering to the disgruntled.

 

[VladDrag]

I dont think this effects any value at all. Team sknow what they are getting from Hayes.

It doesn’t have any value on the player himself, but it does mean they are selling low on him. And teams won’t offer as much as the flyers are asking because they know the position the Flyers are in…

 

[blackjackmulligan]

It doesn’t have any value on the player himself, but it does mean they are selling low on him. And teams won’t offer as much as the flyers are asking because they know the position the Flyers are in…

Disagree. Flyers will have to retain 50% no matter what more than likely. That won't change now or in the future. They were selling low as soon as that contract was signed!!!

 

[mja]

That is not true. Why is so hard to fathom that winning isn't a top priority for Giroux? People act like that is blasphemy.

Because it's a bullshit old man take that encapsulates the bullshit archaic philosophy that got us into this mess. The importance of whether or not a players "wants" it is totally overstated. We haven't been listless for the last decade because the player leadership of the team didn't value winning but because the team has lacked the talent to compete due to the organizational leadership valuing the wrong things in building out the roster.

Giroux values winning, and he values family, and he values stability. Ottawa was and is a perfect situation, and his signing there doesn't say anything at all about how much he does or doesn't value winning.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Because it's a bullshit old man take that encapsulates the bullshit archaic philosophy that got us into this mess. The importance of whether or not a players "wants" it is totally overstated. We haven't been listless for the last decade because the player leadership of the team didn't value winning but because the team has lacked the talent to compete due to the organizational leadership valuing the wrong things in building out the roster.

Giroux values winning, and he values family, and he values stability. Ottawa was and is a perfect situation, and his signing there doesn't say anything at all about how much he does or doesn't value winning.

of course it is.

He values all those other things over winning, as well as other items. Which is his choice. Could have asked out of philly at any time. He choose to stay.

Disagree. Clearly it does to me. Enjoy your evening.

 

[Tripod]

So Hayes and his minions were there culture issue all along.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

of course it is.

He values all those other things over winning, as well as other items. Which is his choice. Could have asked out of philly at any time. He choose to stay.

Disagree. Clearly it does to me. Enjoy your evening.

Does McDavid not value winning for not asking out of Edmonton?

 

[Magua]

So Hayes and his minions were there culture issue all along.

The irony is rich. $50 million rich. As per usual with this franchise in the Fletcher years, every decision they make contradicts the last decision or the last quote. It's a jaw dropping lack of consistency. Hayes was an essential free agent center, a PKing dynamo, the nucleus of the new culture and core (Giroux, Voracek, Ghost = BAD), a leader with an 'A' on his jersey. Now, on pace for 70 points, he's not a center, doesn't PK, and so corrosive to the locker room they need to buy him out urgently.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The alleged “outdated” “moron” dino sure has done well with TK & Tippett this season, & numerous young players throughout his long coaching career.

The outdated moron played Werenski as a rover & is trying to get York to be more of an active rover, as well.

The mistake would be putting Hayes ahead of the team. That’s exactly the type of mentality Torts is eliminating. If you don’t buy in, then you’ll hear about it & probably won’t be around to see next season. This is about molding a team, not catering to the disgruntled.

Konecny is a veteran player.

Tippet I’ll give him. I’m personally in no way impressed with his handling of York, Allison, Frost, Hart, or Zamula.

I understand what the organization is trying to label, and market John Tortorella as. I think it’s BS, and he’s the ultimate double down for the kind of hockey/development the Flyers drool over.

 

[renberg]

You’d think that a Dino coach would appreciate what Hayes has to offer. Evidently Torts doesn’t want Hayes around. So the coach is a semi-dino?

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Teams don't like taking on long-term salary commitments at the TDL, ties their hands come summer.
So I don't see Hayes moving until the summer, I could see $2M retained, 3x5 for a 50+ point forward is reasonable.
Laughton is an exception, $3M won't kill most team's cap going forward, and he has the skill set PO teams like in their bottom six.

If JVR keeps scoring, he'll be a hot commodity at 50% retained, b/c that will fit most budgets.

Braun and Seeler will have value as depth additions (in case of injury, break glass).
MacEwen might have value to a team that a GM sees as soft (same with Seeler).

You've said this b4, but Hayes has only hit 50 points once in his career. So no he's not a 50 point forward

 

[Kelmitchell2]

So Hayes and his minions were there culture issue all along.

We all said that and we weren't even in the room, but God damn it giroux, it was all your fault lol

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Because it's a bullshit old man take that encapsulates the bullshit archaic philosophy that got us into this mess. The importance of whether or not a players "wants" it is totally overstated. We haven't been listless for the last decade because the player leadership of the team didn't value winning but because the team has lacked the talent to compete due to the organizational leadership valuing the wrong things in building out the roster.

You're being far too kind. When it comes to sports, there really aren't that many of these inflection points where we definitively know. The difference between overwhelmingly likely and immutable is a chasm. This is the latter.

It's the easy solution you can compartmentalize. You can take every mistake in the world that adds up over years and gift-wrap it as the bold new solution. Those moves that don't matter never reach an event horizon if you find a new scapegoat every few years.

It's the cowardly, egotistical way out. I can tell because I'm so unbelievably intelligent that I can decipher locker room dynamics from scraps of information like between period interviews. I know whether a player is in shape. I know who works hard. If you set out to find signs of something, there's so much coverage now that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. No scope. No big picture. If it was false, I couldn't make this checklist.

It's unpleasantness by design. The clearest, brightest sign you can possibly have within the sports umbrella to move on with your life. Whatever's on the other end of it will never, ever make your life better. Run screaming and thank whatever higher power you believe in that someone was kind enough to tell you instead of making you do the leg work of discovery.

It's ok to say you don't know and leave it at that. But it takes the tiniest shred of humility.

Eat at Arby's.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

You’d think that a Dino coach would appreciate what Hayes has to offer. Evidently Torts doesn’t want Hayes around. So the coach is a semi-dino?

Why would a dino like Hayes? He's an actual lazy player which is what dinos hates. Except usually they are net positive players and they confuse skill with laziness. Hayes is actually lazy and his skills are limited