2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[kudymen]

Same as Ghost must be a negative value player, since that's the trade Fletcher made.

Fun lesson in asset management. Even if the negative trade value thingy were true, why bother making that trade then - when you know that this player may not help you with assets, but he may help when erm I don't know playing the game of hockey for your hockey team.

@kudymen

Happy anniversary of our divorce

I'm always scared when being tagged in a roster thread haha

 

[blackjackmulligan]

You're pretty obviously arguing for the sake of arguing.

Is Voracek another player you have an irrational dislike for? I mean, we never hear trade rumors for Ovechkin or Crosby, so that must mean nobody wants them right?

Please stop comparing those 2 an others of their ilk to Jake. It is an insult to those players. You are better than that. Talk about arguing for the sake of arguing. Why cant you accept the fact that Jake was not a player in any demand from other teams? Is it really that hard to believe?

Who do I have an irrational dislike for? Cant wait to hear this one. Please do not say Giroux as we already went over this last week.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Please stop comparing those 2 an others of their ilk to Jake. It is an insult to those players. You are better than that. Talk about arguing for the sake of arguing. Why cant you accept the fact that Jake was not a player in any demand from other teams? Is it really that hard to believe?

Who do I have an irrational dislike for? Cant wait to hear this one. Please do not say Giroux as we already went over this last week.

"Please do not say the player I have an irrational dislike for" lol

Pick any good player who has spent near a decade hovering around the top of their position. You won't hear many trade rumors about them. Per your logic that means nobody wants them.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

"Please do not say the player I have an irrational dislike for" lol

Pick any good player who has spent near a decade hovering around the top of their position. You won't hear many trade rumors about them. Per your logic that means nobody wants them.

What part of there is no dislike on my part for Giroux do you struggle with?

So who else to I have an irrational dislike for? You brought it up.

 

[renberg]

OAS, is there any traction to the rumor that the Flyers could retain on Hayes in a potential trade or possible buyout at the end of the season? I heard about these possibilities but don’t want to get my hopes up for the Flyers being a Hayes-less team.

 

[flyersnorth]

OAS, is there any traction to the rumor that the Flyers could retain on Hayes in a potential trade or possible buyout at the end of the season? I heard about these possibilities but don’t want to get my hopes up for the Flyers being a Hayes-less team.

Yes, there is traction. ASF, Carchidi, and I think Charlie O have all mentioned it. ASF got it from a source inside the org. So I’d say there’s traction, and likely leaked on purpose.

But why leak the buyout rumour? Why telegraph your position way ahead of time when there’s no obvious benefit to do so? (it is a rhetorical question - incompetence is the answer). If teams know they can basically get him for free in the offseason, what’s the incentive to trade for him in-season and pay assets?

In any case, a 50% retain and trade - even for nothing in return - is much much better than a buyout IMHO.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Yes, there is traction. ASF, Carchidi, and I think Charlie O have all mentioned it. ASF got it from a source inside the org. So I’d say there’s traction, and likely leaked on purpose.

But why leak the buyout rumour? Why telegraph your position way ahead of time when there’s no obvious benefit to do so? (it is a rhetorical question - incompetence is the answer). If teams know they can basically get him for free in the offseason, what’s the incentive to trade for him in-season and pay assets?

In any case, a 50% retain and trade - even for nothing in return - is much much better than a buyout IMHO.

A trade requires cooperation from another team. A buyout doesn’t. ASF always talks as if that’s the last option but it’s also the path of least resistance that gets Hayes off this roster next year.

I think ASF is just speculating on the methods of getting rid of Hayes by using common sense. I don’t think anybody is actually telling him what their plans are at the moment because I doubt those people even really know.

 

[Curufinwe]

Deslauriers plays every game as a heavily sheltered 4th liner, and still has the worst ES GF% on the team (min 150 minutes). Allison has the best ES GF%.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Deslauriers has the 4th worst ESP/60 on the team. Only Brown, Risto, and Braun are lower.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Deslauriers was signed for 4 years at $1.75m with a 2 year NTC by Chuck Fletcher.

 

[Curufinwe]

Fun lesson in asset management. Even if the negative trade value thingy were true, why bother making that trade then - when you know that this player may not help you with assets, but he may help when erm I don't know playing the game of hockey for your hockey team.

The GM was forced to move Ghost in July by the coach that the GM fired in December.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

OAS, is there any traction to the rumor that the Flyers could retain on Hayes in a potential trade or possible buyout at the end of the season? I heard about these possibilities but don’t want to get my hopes up for the Flyers being a Hayes-less team.

We would loose even this trade. Hayes will be a 3rd line center and we get back a bit cheaper guy with a longer contract who is injured after 2 games. Or who is worse than hayes!

I dont get my hopes up!

 

[AmadiosAmigos]

Kings fan coming in peace, looking to get an idea from the Flyers faithful what the ask would be on a number of players (in general terms, not from Kings)

Provorov
Konecny
Laughton
TDA
JVR

Also - reading the notes, sounds like most would be on board with moving TDA. Given the position they are in, would something around TDA to Ottawa in turn for taking back Zaitsev++ be a move that should be explored. Its said Ottawa is willing to add a high draft pick/prospect, which should add a nice package given they are looking for a RHD and TDA has positive value.

In terms of Hayes, with some level of retention Im sure there would be multiple teams interested, most likely Colorado and Boston. Hayes being a Boston boy would have appeal, maybe taking back Craig Smith (UFA) along with some retention makes the trade offer a return that helps the retool.

Just a couple outsider thoughts - generally interested to hear the values expected. Thanks

 

[DancingPanther]

Kings fan coming in peace, looking to get an idea from the Flyers faithful what the ask would be on a number of players (in general terms, not from Kings)

Provorov
Konecny
Laughton
TDA
JVR

Also - reading the notes, sounds like most would be on board with moving TDA. Given the position they are in, would something around TDA to Ottawa in turn for taking back Zaitsev++ be a move that should be explored. Its said Ottawa is willing to add a high draft pick/prospect, which should add a nice package given they are looking for a RHD and TDA has positive value.

In terms of Hayes, with some level of retention Im sure there would be multiple teams interested, most likely Colorado and Boston. Hayes being a Boston boy would have appeal, maybe taking back Craig Smith (UFA) along with some retention makes the trade offer a return that helps the retool.

Just a couple outsider thoughts - generally interested to hear the values expected. Thanks

TK would net a huge haul. 5.5mil per for 2 more seasons of a first line caliber 25 year old? I'm at work and am not able to find comps, but competitors pay out the ass at the deadline and that just sounds like 3 or 4 high picks to me. Two 1sts territory. Or a 1st, a good prospect, and 2nds and 3rds.

Provorov is exactly who GMs love around the deadline would probably go for less, but still a good haul.

Laughton would fetch something outrageous (compared to his actual value) with competitor teams at the deadline. Wouldn't be surprised if he could net a 1st, but could easily see a combo of 2nds.

JVR is probably good for a step below Laughton.

Fletcher should be chomping at the bit at Zaitsev and a first if that is true.

The issue is Fletcher would be absolutely hosed in all deals and wouldn't be able to extract anything near the actual value of any of his valuable trade assets. It's good to be king baby

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

I've been legit just praying to all that is holy, please let us get Bedard, would be our best draft day selection since the Foppa/Lindros thingy. Guy is a going to be a superstar immediately. At least I'll have a reason to watch the team again..

 

[VladDrag]

Kings fan coming in peace, looking to get an idea from the Flyers faithful what the ask would be on a number of players (in general terms, not from Kings)

Provorov
Konecny
Laughton
TDA
JVR

Also - reading the notes, sounds like most would be on board with moving TDA. Given the position they are in, would something around TDA to Ottawa in turn for taking back Zaitsev++ be a move that should be explored. Its said Ottawa is willing to add a high draft pick/prospect, which should add a nice package given they are looking for a RHD and TDA has positive value.

In terms of Hayes, with some level of retention Im sure there would be multiple teams interested, most likely Colorado and Boston. Hayes being a Boston boy would have appeal, maybe taking back Craig Smith (UFA) along with some retention makes the trade offer a return that helps the retool.

Just a couple outsider thoughts - generally interested to hear the values expected. Thanks

Hard to say.....

Provy - something centered around a 1st round + maybe a C level prospect. Depends on who you trade with. A route I would like is a trade at the draft for the ~10 OA pick.
TK - I am probably in the minority but I am not interested in trading TK at the moment. He's the only bona fide top line forward they have right now. They got him for 2 more years and I think he could be very good for the majority of his next contract. I guess you would get a good prospect, and a 1st. Think like a Toffolli package.
TDA - I dont see him moving this year, but next TDL, I think 2-2nds, something like that.
Laughton - unlikely but you might be able to squeeze a first, more likely the accumulated value of a high 2nd round pick
JvR - I would love to see a 1st return. But I doubt it

 

[mja]

Fun lesson in asset management. Even if the negative trade value thingy were true, why bother making that trade then - when you know that this player may not help you with assets, but he may help when erm I don't know playing the game of hockey for your hockey team.

Chuck and the boys to G, Jake, & Ghost:

 

[mja]

What part of there is no dislike on my part for Giroux do you struggle with?

I'm starting to come around to your point of view. Ottawa has 6 players (including G) flirting with PPG nearing the halfway point of the season. The other 5 are 25 & under, while 25 year old Chabot is pacing for his second 50 point season on the backend. Clearly G saw what was happening in Ottawa and just wanted to pad his stats rather than win.

 

[Tarpongg]

I've been legit just praying to all that is holy, please let us get Bedard, would be our best draft day selection since the Foppa/Lindros thingy. Guy is a going to be a superstar immediately. At least I'll have a reason to watch the team again..

It’s another form of mismanagement to not do all you can to land him. Doesn’t mean tank, it means admit you’re rebuilding and trade vets to acquire youth and assets. Instead, “we only finished 8 pts out of a playoff spot” is the badge of honor Chuck is shooting for.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

TK would net a huge haul. 5.5mil per for 2 more seasons of a first line caliber 25 year old? I'm at work and am not able to find comps, but competitors pay out the ass at the deadline and that just sounds like 3 or 4 high picks to me. Two 1sts territory. Or a 1st, a good prospect, and 2nds and 3rds.

Provorov is exactly who GMs love around the deadline would probably go for less, but still a good haul.

Laughton would fetch something outrageous (compared to his actual value) with competitor teams at the deadline. Wouldn't be surprised if he could net a 1st, but could easily see a combo of 2nds.

JVR is probably good for a step below Laughton.

Fletcher should be chomping at the bit at Zaitsev and a first if that is true.

The issue is Fletcher would be absolutely hosed in all deals and wouldn't be able to extract anything near the actual value of any of his valuable trade assets. It's good to be king baby

The only issue with wanting to move these players is the Flyers don't want to move them , less JVR. They over value every one of them and believe they are part of the solution.

If the sens will give up a 1st t move Zaitsev, yes the GM should be all over it. He wont as we all know.

I'm starting to come around to your point of view. Ottawa has 6 players (including G) flirting with PPG nearing the halfway point of the season. The other 5 are 25 & under, while 25 year old Chabot is pacing for his second 50 point season on the backend. Clearly G saw what was happening in Ottawa and just wanted to pad his stats rather than win.

Is ottawa a cup contending team? Do you think any other team would have offered him a 3 year deal at 6.5 per?

 

[deadhead]

Complete nonsense from a shameless liar.

You spent 3 years touting Hayes as a proper 2C and now you’re pretending he can’t be a C at all simply because you have no actual thoughts of your own, and only exist to invent rationales for whatever Flyers management does, even if those arguments are the exact opposite of arguments you made previously.

Hayes was signed to play 2C for AV, who had coached him in NY, at age 27.
Three years and a series of injuries later, he is a bad fit at center for Torts, whose teams play a more aggressive style than AV.
Hayes has clearly lost a stride, his offensive skills are fine, but he struggles on defense, partially a lack of inclination, partially a lack of speed.
Don't see what's so complicated about that.

Hayes was overpaid at 7x7, Voracek was overpaid at 8x8.25, both starting at age 27.
Both were contracts you give only if you're a player or two away from competing for a Cup and see a limited window (i.e. you don't care about the out years).

 

[mja]

Is ottawa a cup contending team? Do you think any other team would have offered him a 3 year deal at 6.5 per?

Right this minute? No. They sure do have some really nice pieces to work with though, including a deeply talented top 9 that's basically all 25 and under save G. Chabot's a legitimate 1st pair defenseman and they have some nice prospects on their way. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Ottawa starts making some noise sooner rather than later. Hell, they're 11-5-2 since Thanksgiving.

But you seem to think that the only way someone can value winning is if they sign a mercenary contract with one of the contenders du jour without giving a thought to any other considerations, so...

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Right this minute? No. They sure do have some really nice pieces to work with though, including a deeply talented top 9 that's basically all 25 and under save G. Chabot's a legitimate 1st pair defenseman and they have some nice prospects on their way. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Ottawa starts making some noise sooner rather than later. Hell, they're 11-5-2 since Thanksgiving.

But you seem to think that the only way someone can value winning is if they sign a mercenary contract with one of the contenders du jour without giving a thought to any other considerations, so...

That is not true. Why is so hard to fathom that winning isn't a top priority for Giroux? People act like that is blasphemy.

Yes they do have good pieces in place. How soon it comes together (if it does) time will tell.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

With the league-wide dearth of centers, the Flyers won’t have a problem getting something for Hayes.

Just have to retain some salary because so many teams are cap-strapped.

I wouldn’t even be too surprised if it happens this season instead of the summer.

 

[deadhead]

Teams don't like taking on long-term salary commitments at the TDL, ties their hands come summer.
So I don't see Hayes moving until the summer, I could see $2M retained, 3x5 for a 50+ point forward is reasonable.
Laughton is an exception, $3M won't kill most team's cap going forward, and he has the skill set PO teams like in their bottom six.

If JVR keeps scoring, he'll be a hot commodity at 50% retained, b/c that will fit most budgets.

Braun and Seeler will have value as depth additions (in case of injury, break glass).
MacEwen might have value to a team that a GM sees as soft (same with Seeler).

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Hayes was signed to play 2C for AV, who had coached him in NY, at age 27.
Three years and a series of injuries later, he is a bad fit at center for Torts, whose teams play a more aggressive style than AV.
Hayes has clearly lost a stride, his offensive skills are fine, but he struggles on defense, partially a lack of inclination, partially a lack of speed.
Don't see what's so complicated about that.

Hayes was overpaid at 7x7, Voracek was overpaid at 8x8.25, both starting at age 27.
Both were contracts you give only if you're a player or two away from competing for a Cup and see a limited window (i.e. you don't care about the out years).

Solid post until the bold. Who cares about Jake as not relevant.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Teams don't like taking on long-term salary commitments at the TDL, ties their hands come summer.
So I don't see Hayes moving until the summer, I could see $2M retained, 3x5 for a 50+ point forward is reasonable.
Laughton is an exception, $3M won't kill most team's cap going forward, and he has the skill set PO teams like in their bottom six.

If JVR keeps scoring, he'll be a hot commodity at 50% retained, b/c that will fit most budgets.

Braun and Seeler will have value as depth additions (in case of injury, break glass).
MacEwen might have value to a team that a GM sees as soft (same with Seeler).

They need to retain 50% or at a minimum 3 million.

Stop with the a GM may see value with ZM. You also seem to forget that the coach and GM love their ZM.Their will be 50 better players available over him.

Barun is toast and will get a 6th. Which is fine. Also wont be shocked if they have a hand shake deal not to move Braun.

Does Seeler have more value to the Flyers this and next season making 800k vs. getting a 6th rd pick back?

JVR will get a Paveleski deal (little less maybe) from the Flyers.....that would be be some funny shit if that happens.