2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[Beef Invictus]

I would not expect miracles.

I would expect a competent GM who would not make the following moves:

Thompson x2,
Braun x2,
Grant,
Deslauriers for 4 years AND A NO TRADE CLAUSE for a 4th liner
Ristolainen for 5 years ($25M) and Ghost, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, Hagg
DeAngelo for 2 years and 2nd, 3rd, 4th round pick,
Brown
MacEwen

Of the trades that were decent, NONE have worked out -

Niskanen
Ellis
Atkinson

You do not need a miracle worker to outperform Fletcher. You simply need a competent GM.

Fletcher has been Milbury-tier. An incompetent GM would be an upgrade too.

 

[landsbergfan]

Fletcher has been Milbury-tier. An incompetent GM would be an upgrade too.

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes, absolving.

Literally no one believes that firing Fletcher will fix everything. We have explained our stance countless times. WE want everyone gone and have for years but you know this and have to resort to constant strawman arguments.

Oh wait, the no one believes that statement isn’t true. YOU believe that Torts and Briere will fix everything despite Briere being hand picked by the same morons that have the team in this position.

For those keeping track at home, this counts as "Fletcher had no choice" on the bingo card, because "it's not Fletcher's fault, no one else could have done better" are both absolving him of blame.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Must be something funny going on here.

Coaches/management can't be wrong, so it must be the players not listening or something.

ohh noes! we have locker room cancers again ?

 

[Beef Invictus]

And all at a heavy, heavy loss!

 

[deadhead]

It was a simple question dead. I have zero doubt others could and would have done a better job.

I do not believe the advisers call the tune. What I believe and has been reported elsewhere is Chuck involves them, then they offer their opinion. They do not seek him out telling him what to do. This is all on Chuck. He has no backbone. He is a fn lackey in the worst way.


Not utilizing what talent you do have properly. Coaching, schemes, usage. Many reasons.

Who hired Chuck and was adamant that the Flyers are not rebuilding?
Chuck's "power" comes strictly from his willingness to do what the PTB ask him to do.
They wanted a "name" HC, he tried for Q and settled for AV. What other "name" was available?
They wanted to win now, he made win now moves.
And so on.

The league knows the Flyer FO refuses to consider a rebuild, that they're probably flabbergasted that Torts has been so explicit about the need to add talent and that it'll take 4-5 years - because they want to market a quick turnaround.

So what competent GM would take this job under the current management regime?

The only hope is Camilla (sic) has done her homework and will clean house once she is handed the reins.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who hired Chuck and was adamant that the Flyers are not rebuilding?
Chuck's "power" comes strictly from his willingness to do what the PTB ask him to do.
They wanted a "name" HC, he tried for Q and settled for AV. What other "name" was available?
They wanted to win now, he made win now moves.
And so on.

The league knows the Flyer FO refuses to consider a rebuild, that they're probably flabbergasted that Torts has been so explicit about the need to add talent and that it'll take 4-5 years - because they want to market a quick turnaround.

So what competent GM would take this job under the current management regime?

The only hope is Camilla (sic) has done her homework and will clean house once she is handed the reins.

Chuck Fletcher is the entire power structure and could fire any of them to follow his own course. Scott likes him and trusts him to boot. He wouldn't stop it.

Chuck Fletcher keeps them around, listens to them, and empowers them because he likes what they have to say. Don't be surprised when we see Lombardi hired as GM and Briere shifted to AGM until he feels ready with Fletcher and Flahr remaining in their undeserved exec spots.

They'll sell it as a huge change. It'll be embarrassing. You'll defend it. That will be embarrassing.

 

[deadhead]

Like they'd be any better if they retained Ghost, Voracek (damaged goods), Giroux and Simmonds (end of the line) and their cap hits?
At least they got something for G.

Must go deeper than talent. A less talented Coyotes PP is better.

Coaching matters. Tortorella, who doesn't understand offense, rarely oversees good PPs. Rocky's resume isn't jam-packed with success either. The opposite, actually.

Less talented? I thought Ghost was a great player?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So what competent GM would take this job under the current management regime?

The current management regime hasn't changed since Hextall had the job. Welcome aboard the Fletcher is incompetent train, deady! Incompetent ≠ worst in the league. Ken Holland is always there to help you feel better.

(I think someone would tbh. There are still only a few jobs out there. But your pool is more narrow.)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Like they'd be any better if they retained Ghost, Voracek (damaged goods), Giroux and Simmonds (end of the line) and their cap hits?
At least they got something for G.

Less talented? I thought Ghost was a great player?

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't understand how the team got into such a dire situation if Fletcher has only made one, maybe two mistakes in 4 years.

4 years, 1 month and 8 days now. Chucky Ducky now has the 15th longest active tenure in a 32 team league.

List of current NHL general managers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Team	General manager	Tenured since	Pro career	References
Nashville Predators	David Poile	July 9, 1997	1970–1971	[30][31]
St. Louis Blues	Doug Armstrong	July 1, 2010	None	[48][49]
Winnipeg Jets	Kevin Cheveldayoff	June 8, 2011	1990–1994	[60][61]
Columbus Blue Jackets	Jarmo Kekalainen	February 13, 2013	1983–1995	[14][15]
Dallas Stars	Jim Nill	April 29, 2013	1980–1991	[16][17]
Calgary Flames	Brad Treliving	April 28, 2014	1990–1995	[9][10]
Washington Capitals	Brian MacLellan	May 26, 2014	1982–1992	[58][59]
Boston Bruins	Don Sweeney	May 20, 2015	1988–2004	[5][6]
Ottawa Senators	Pierre Dorion	April 10, 2016	None	[38][39]
Los Angeles Kings	Rob Blake	April 10, 2017	1990–2010	[24][25]
Carolina Hurricanes	Don Waddell	May 8, 2018	1980–1988	[11][12]
Toronto Maple Leafs	Kyle Dubas	May 11, 2018	None	[52][53]
New York Islanders	Lou Lamoriello	June 5, 2018	None	[34][35]
Tampa Bay Lightning	Julien BriseBois	September 11, 2018	None	[50][51]
Philadelphia Flyers	Chuck Fletcher	December 3, 2018	None	[40][41]

The only GMs out of those 14 with a worse P% than Fletcher since he became Flyers GM, are Kekalainen and Dorion.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Poile - .575
Armstrong - .631
Chevy - .572
Nill - .589
Treliving - .598
MacLellan - .637
Sweeney - .696
Dorion - .431
Blake - .515
Wadell - .668
Dubas - .645
Lamorello - .584
BriseBrois - .690
Fletcher - .500
Kekalainen - .497

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Somewhere in the Greater Vancouver Metro area, @CanadianFlyer88 is yelling to no one in particular about how much credit Ken Holland gets for doing nothing and how much money's he's made off of it. Sorry for bringing him up.

 

[deadhead]

The current management regime hasn't changed since Hextall had the job. Welcome aboard the Fletcher is incompetent train, deady!

(I think someone would tbh. There are still only a few jobs out there.)

Not someone competent, taking a job where the FO will sabotage you is career suicide - one thing that makes you competent is waiting for a job where you have a chance to succeed.

Has anyone noticed that Berube won a Cup, Hakstol turned around Seattle in his 2nd year without a lot of high draft picks (one, Berniers)? Maybe coaching was never the issue?

The decay has been going on since Holmgren failed to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trade.
Hextall made a half-hearted effort to stanch the bleeding, then gave JVR that big contract and whiffed on too many draft picks.
Fletcher did as Holmgren instructed him. Traded assets to win now - fortunately only 1 first rd pick.

This team has lacked depth since 2013, people criticized Hakstol, but he got as much out of that team as possible - they had one line and no 1st pair D-men and other than Mason in 2015, mediocre goalies. Yet he got them to the playoffs twice, which turned out to be the worst possible outcome - that's when they should have tanked, from 2012-2016.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Chuck Fletcher is the entire power structure and could fire any of them to follow his own course. Scott likes him and trusts him to boot. He wouldn't stop it.

Chuck Fletcher keeps them around, listens to them, and empowers them because he likes what they have to say. Don't be surprised when we see Lombardi hired as GM and Briere shifted to AGM until he feels ready with Fletcher and Flahr remaining in their undeserved exec spots.

They'll sell it as a huge change. It'll be embarrassing. You'll defend it. That will be embarrassing.

and nothing will change..

#oldboisclub4life

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not someone competent, taking a job where the FO will sabotage you is career suicide - one thing that makes you competent is waiting for a job where you have a chance to succeed.

Has anyone noticed that Berube won a Cup, Hakstol turned around Seattle in his 2nd year without a lot of high draft picks (one, Berniers)? Maybe coaching was never the issue?

The decay has been going on since Holmgren failed to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trade.
Hextall made a half-hearted effort to stanch the bleeding, then gave JVR that big contract and whiffed on too many draft picks.
Fletcher did as Holmgren instructed him. Traded assets to win now - fortunately only 1 first rd pick.

This team has lacked depth since 2013, people criticized Hakstol, but he got as much out of that team as possible - they had one line and no 1st pair D-men and other than Mason in 2015, mediocre goalies. Yet he got them to the playoffs twice, which turned out to be the worst possible outcome - that's when they should have tanked, from 2012-2016.

I would argue that average coaching is fine, especially if they're good motivators. You just can't have one of the true incompetents. Some will be better for various stages of player development, of course.

Dave Hakstol was somewhere in that giant swath of 20+ coaches who don't move the needle either way. He just happened to be an asshole, which did bother me. They're on a non-interim string of 3 of those in a row. Seems like a feature at this point.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I am pretty sure you've objected to this before, but it ties to his laziness. Why figure out a problem yourself when you can just solicit solutions from someone else and then pursue those? Far easier. Unfortunately that means he's calling Lombardi and Clarke for ideas. Always taking the easiest paths of least resistance.

Yeah we differ on that. I don't see it as laziness.

To me it is just shear incompetence. The wanting to be liked factor plays a part as well. He is just not good. What other team wouldn't have fired him by now? Less Ottawa when their old owner was alive.

I would not expect miracles.

I would expect a competent GM who would not make the following moves:

Stewart
Thompson x2,
Braun x2,
Grant,
Deslauriers for 4 years AND A NO TRADE CLAUSE for a 4th liner
Ristolainen for 5 years ($25M) and Ghost, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, Hagg
DeAngelo for 2 years and 2nd, 3rd, 4th round pick,
Brown
MacEwen

Of the trades that were decent, NONE have worked out -

Niskanen
Ellis
Atkinson

You do not need a miracle worker to outperform Fletcher. You simply need a competent GM.

nothing wrong with the Braun trade. Tony D just looking at it as a trade is good. Where the Flyers were at and currently not one they should be making.

 

[Rebels57]

I would argue that average coaching is fine, especially if they're good motivators. You just can't have one of the true incompetents. Some will be better for various stages of player development, of course.

Dave Hakstol was somewhere in that giant swath of 20+ coaches who don't move the needle either way. He just happened to be an asshole, which did bother me. They're on a non-interim string of 3 of those in a row. Seems like a feature at this point.

That plus the Hak-shell and his late-game deployment were just not tolerable.

 

[FlyerNutter]

On the topic of leaks, I think it’s pretty clear where that is coming from.

We had basically radio silence during the Hextall era, but as soon as that old guard was once again allowed to have more power/influence at the table we see them spilling everything.

It makes for conversation amongst us, but I can’t disagree with the idea that it’s damaged the team in terms of trades.

The only real viable solution here imo, is a slow one. Father Time.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Like they'd be any better if they retained Ghost, Voracek (damaged goods), Giroux and Simmonds (end of the line) and their cap hits?
At least they got something for G.

Less talented? I thought Ghost was a great player?

Simmonds trade was good. Got a pick and NHL level player. Simmonds was cooked when he was traded. No issue with that trade.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That plus the Hak-shell and his late-game deployment were just not tolerable.

Berube's player usage was also intolerable.

If Hakstol has become a worthwhile coach, it came after wandering the desert for a bit. Likewise for Berube, who was flat-out unready to be a head coach when we made him one.

The idea that what these coaches are now changes what they were while here is a joke.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Not someone competent, taking a job where the FO will sabotage you is career suicide - one thing that makes you competent is waiting for a job where you have a chance to succeed.

Has anyone noticed that Berube won a Cup, Hakstol turned around Seattle in his 2nd year without a lot of high draft picks (one, Berniers)? Maybe coaching was never the issue?

The decay has been going on since Holmgren failed to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trade.
Hextall made a half-hearted effort to stanch the bleeding, then gave JVR that big contract and whiffed on too many draft picks.
Fletcher did as Holmgren instructed him. Traded assets to win now - fortunately only 1 first rd pick.

This team has lacked depth since 2013, people criticized Hakstol, but he got as much out of that team as possible - they had one line and no 1st pair D-men and other than Mason in 2015, mediocre goalies. Yet he got them to the playoffs twice, which turned out to be the worst possible outcome - that's when they should have tanked, from 2012-2016.

Has he failed?

 

[Starat327]

Berube's player usage was also intolerable.

If Hakstol has become a worthwhile coach, it came after wandering the desert for a bit. Likewise for Berube, who was flat-out unready to be a head coach when we made him one.

The idea that what these coaches are now changes what they were while here is a joke.

We just didn't give them enoigh games to do it. What's the magic number again? Somewhere above 341?

 

[flyersnorth]

Yeah we differ on that. I don't see it as laziness.

To me it is just shear incompetence. The wanting to be liked factor plays a part as well. He is just not good. What other team wouldn't have fired him by now? Less Ottawa when their old owner was alive.


nothing wrong with the Braun trade. Tony D just looking at it as a trade is good. Where the Flyers were at and currently not one they should be making.

The Braun trade was fine, but no need to bring him back a second time. Point taken, though. I have no real issue either way. It's when you start compiling the bottom-of-the-lineup detritus that Chuck keeps collecting that it feels like, "another one??"

The DeAngelo trade... meh. I don't think he's a very good defenseman in the grand scheme of things. He can be fine in a place like Carolina or somewhere where there is legitimate talent throughout the lineup, and he provides offense from the blueline, especially on the PP. But current-day-Philly is not that place. Like you say, it is a trade that didn't need to be made.

Ultimately, it just feels like they are two years too late in realizing that this just isn't working.

 

[VladDrag]

The exact ratio and tally will vary based on the source you use, but you can basically ballpark it as somewhere between 2 and 4 teams generate double the threat the Flyers do on the 5v4 PP. DOUBLE.