2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[ajgoal]

Flyers Charities Auction for their Casino Night...

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I saw the name and immediately went to Nick.

 

[VladDrag]

Tippett creates more than Frost on that line, driving play with his feet and his ability to play fast with the puck. He's erratic, but so is TK. He needs a lot of work, but he'll get the PT to work on his game, but his physical skills are unquestioned, size, speed, a plus wrist shot, good passer. While he'll never be a high IQ player (neither is TK), with experience he should improve his feel. Like TK, he makes things happen instead of waiting for his center.

Frost has improved, and by playing better without the puck he's getting the opportunity to work on his offense. But there's a reason he looks much better against bad teams and on the PP - he's a much better player in space than when he's closely checked - and that may mean a move to wing at some point if he doesn't improve. Frost still lacks functional strength and gets bumped off the puck, and he doesn't have the short area agility and feel to make plays in crowds or to create space and buy time. He's improving, but still limited.

Cates is almost the exact opposite, really good stick in crowds, was forcing turnovers left and right and "almost" making big plays. I think his problem is he lacks great skills (better skater than expected, but still . . . ) and is learning on the job. He's got a high IQ, but simply lacks experience. Right now he's probably thinking too much instead of playing instinctively.

The player I'm looking forward to seeing in a couple months is Brink. You can already see what Hayes does for Laughton in terms of a wing who can handle a lot of the playmaking duties for a center, I think Brink could provide that as well.

We just can't agree on player evaluations when you say things like Tippett creates more than Frost, it's just not true. That's not a knock on Tippett. He uses his legs to create for himself, but he doesn't create for others on any consistent basis. He makes some decent passes, but I wouldn't call him a plus passer by any means.

Everyone is a better player with time and space vs when they are closely checked. This isn't a real knock on Frost. I also can't fathom how you can say Frost doesn't make plays in tight...I could write paragraphs about him, but I'll just post this video. You watch that and tell me Frost can't make plays in tight. Count how many plays he made on entries that turned into a scoring chance.



When it comes to Cates, he's got a very active stick on the forecheck, and excels in that role. He's good in tight corners. That is not the same as making in-tight surgical passes, like you see in the video from Frost above. You might be right with Cates, he might be trying too hard, or he might be overthinking, or overworked. But one thin is for sure, he's playing lots of minutes with offensive guys and he's not producing. It's like they are forcing him into a position he's not really suited for. I like Cates, and I don't even mind the attempt at making him a center, but they are making the team worse by playing him at 1C when there is a clearly better option in Frost to play with TK and Farabee.

I'm also very excited to see Brink as well. Loved him during his draft year, very excited he was drafted by the Flyers, and I think he's got lots of skill to add to a group that desperately needs it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

His defensive results were actually better last season.

Torts must have been emailing him from the broadcast desk.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tippett creates more than Frost on that line, driving play with his feet and his ability to play fast with the puck. He's erratic, but so is TK. He needs a lot of work, but he'll get the PT to work on his game, but his physical skills are unquestioned, size, speed, a plus wrist shot, good passer. While he'll never be a high IQ player (neither is TK), with experience he should improve his feel. Like TK, he makes things happen instead of waiting for his center.

Frost has improved, and by playing better without the puck he's getting the opportunity to work on his offense. But there's a reason he looks much better against bad teams and on the PP - he's a much better player in space than when he's closely checked - and that may mean a move to wing at some point if he doesn't improve. Frost still lacks functional strength and gets bumped off the puck, and he doesn't have the short area agility and feel to make plays in crowds or to create space and buy time. He's improving, but still limited.

Cates is almost the exact opposite, really good stick in crowds, was forcing turnovers left and right and "almost" making big plays. I think his problem is he lacks great skills (better skater than expected, but still . . . ) and is learning on the job. He's got a high IQ, but simply lacks experience. Right now he's probably thinking too much instead of playing instinctively.

The player I'm looking forward to seeing in a couple months is Brink. You can already see what Hayes does for Laughton in terms of a wing who can handle a lot of the playmaking duties for a center, I think Brink could provide that as well.

I don't know how you dream this stuff up

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Don't buy into the Girard hype at all . There board wants him out of town cause his defensive play is crap . I've been over to their board a few times and they are not happy with him at all . I'm not sure I would do York for Girard straight up .

I meant like smoll boy type, but anyway I digress.

 

[deadhead]

Tippett is constantly making things happen, he's not a playmaker but he makes plays happen through his speed, tenacious forecheck, and general hustle. He is a much better passer than I expected. Now is he going to run a "half court" offense the way I expect from Brink, of course not. But he's better at zone entries than TK, b/c he's hard to knock off the puck, and when he chips and chases, defenseman can't easily block him b/c of his strength and quickness. His biggest problem is he doesn't have the instincts of top offensive players - but he makes life easier for Frost by opening up space and retrieving pucks. Which is why I don't think Frost would be more productive with TK, b/c TK needs a center (Couts, Cates) who does the dirty work and CYA for his risk taking.

Frost can make some nifty plays, but he's also been stripped of the puck or forced into bad turnovers far more than a top playmaking center should allow. I think it's both experience (how much time do I have, what can I get away with) and lack of strength (too easily bumped off the puck or stick checked). At this point, I don't think he can get much stronger, so he's got to process faster. When he has open space, he's more comfortable, which is one reason I can see him moving to LW and playing more of a perimeter game. He's improved defensively, but has to handle the puck better in crowds, b/c at center you're the center of attention.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tippett is constantly making things happen, he's not a playmaker but he makes plays happen through his speed, tenacious forecheck, and general hustle. He is a much better passer than I expected. Now is he going to run a "half court" offense the way I expect from Brink, of course not. But he's better at zone entries than TK, b/c he's hard to knock off the puck, and when he chips and chases, defenseman can't easily block him b/c of his strength and quickness. His biggest problem is he doesn't have the instincts of top offensive players - but he makes life easier for Frost by opening up space and retrieving pucks. Which is why I don't think Frost would be more productive with TK, b/c TK needs a center (Couts, Cates) who does the dirty work and CYA for his risk taking.

Frost can make some nifty plays, but he's also been stripped of the puck or forced into bad turnovers far more than a top playmaking center should allow. I think it's both experience (how much time do I have, what can I get away with) and lack of strength (too easily bumped off the puck or stick checked). At this point, I don't think he can get much stronger, so he's got to process faster. When he has open space, he's more comfortable, which is one reason I can see him moving to LW and playing more of a perimeter game. He's improved defensively, but has to handle the puck better in crowds, b/c at center you're the center of attention.

If you haven't noticed Tippett making plays resulting in loss of possession at a higher rate than Frost while also making setup plays in transition and on the cycle less than Frost, then methinks you are watching these two very selectively. Yes, Tippett has overperformed relative to expectations and what he's shown in the past; but he's not superior to Frost.

Why, it's almost like you're looking to confirm a narrative that would be good for management. Watching subjectively rather than objectively. Like usual. This is the kind of player evaluation process that leads to you proclaiming nonsensical things, like Patrick is better to have than Tavares or Yandle and Hagg are better than Ghost. Or Risto is just fine. Or Backstrom is still very good, bordering elite, but Giroux somehow isn't.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It's hard not to laugh when you think of all the time spent both by professionals and amateurs agonizing over line construction via tiny differences in styles and attributes.

The league as a whole is not nearly optimized enough to have these micro adjustments approach what you can gain by just getting better players.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's hard not to laugh when you think of all the time spent both by professionals and amateurs agonizing over line construction via tiny differences in styles and attributes.

The league as a whole is not nearly optimized enough to have these micro adjustments approach what you can gain by just getting better players.

If Fletcher heard you speaking against building for fit/role like this, he would very angrily crank up "Wonderful Christmastime" (his favorite Beatles song which he plays 24/7) all the way to medium volume to drown you out. Flahr would scowl as he eats another raw deboned pig.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If Fletcher heard you speaking against building for fit/role like this, he would very angrily crank up "Wonderful Christmastime" (his favorite Beatles song which he plays 24/7) all the way to medium volume to drown you out. Flahr would scowl as he eats another raw deboned pig.

I've read thousands and thousands of your thoughts and this is by far the most cursed one you've ever put to paper.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've read thousands and thousands of your thoughts and this is by far the most cursed one you've ever put to paper.

I suspect I know which part of this is cursed.

Last time I heard that song I described it to my wife as "Chuck Fletcher Music" and it was the most scathing critique I think I've managed for both the song and Flumpchunker.

Off topic, I'd like to take a moment to reaffirm my conviction that Sam Howell is The Way Of The Future and will soon be the greatest QB in DC history.

 

[TB87]

The league as a whole is not nearly optimized enough to have these micro adjustments approach what you can gain by just getting better players.

If they just get better players, will those players “pLaY tHe RiGhT wAy?”

 

[deadhead]

It's hard not to laugh when you think of all the time spent both by professionals and amateurs agonizing over line construction via tiny differences in styles and attributes.

The league as a whole is not nearly optimized enough to have these micro adjustments approach what you can gain by just getting better players.

The solution to everything: "get better players." If only it was so easy.

Though I think there is a real aspect of chemistry with lines and pairs, there are complementary skill sets.
And there are players who are "oil and water."

 

[VladDrag]

It's hard not to laugh when you think of all the time spent both by professionals and amateurs agonizing over line construction via tiny differences in styles and attributes.

The league as a whole is not nearly optimized enough to have these micro adjustments approach what you can gain by just getting better players.

It depends on how an organization defines "better players".

 

[Beef Invictus]

The solution to everything: "get better players." If only it was so easy.

Though I think there is a real aspect of chemistry with lines and pairs,there are comlpementary skill sets.
And there are players who are "oil and water."

It's definitely not as hard as Fletcher makes it look. Amateur internet dorks around here routinely identify margin signings that prove to be successful around the league. Fletcher signs for role and fit on the first day of free agency instead, fills up the cap and contract slots, then goes back to watching MeTV for the rest of the summer. Then his signings all fail as predicted and the dork-solutions pan out elsewhere.

Like I've been saying for a while, a major reason this team is so bad is that Fletcher is worse at his job than internet dorks.

You fill the team with as much worthwhile talent (not Fletcherian slobs like Deslauriers) as you can identify, then find fits and chemistry within that group of players. Going for fit first is what the Flyers do and the results really suck.

 

[deadhead]

If you haven't noticed Tippett making plays resulting in loss of possession at a higher rate than Frost while also making setup plays in transition and on the cycle less than Frost, then methinks you are watching these two very selectively. Yes, Tippett has overperformed relative to expectations and what he's shown in the past; but he's not superior to Frost.

Why, it's almost like you're looking to confirm a narrative that would be good for management. Watching subjectively rather than objectively. Like usual. This is the kind of player evaluation process that leads to you proclaiming nonsensical things, like Patrick is better to have than Tavares or Yandle and Hagg are better than Ghost. Or Risto is just fine. Or Backstrom is still very good, bordering elite, but Giroux somehow isn't.

Apples and oranges. They have different roles and styles of play.

Tippett is well suited to Frost (and that was seen last spring) b/c he can skate with Frost but is physical and willing to do the dirty work. Nor does Tippett depend on Frost, he plays as well with other centers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Apples and oranges. They have different roles and styles of play.

Tippett is well suited to Frost (and that was seen last spring) b/c he can skate with Frost but is physical and willing to do the dirty work. Nor does Tippett depend on Frost, he plays as well with other centers.

You also claimed in your post that Frost wouldn't do better with TK. Because Cates is better defensively. This is complete nonsense. Frost is also quite competent defensively. He can play with TK. He'd also score a lot more than Cates.

Role and fit are goofy justifications. They're self-imposed limitations that are often wrong, especially when its the Flyers making the calls. This kind of thinking is a major reason why the team never does what you proclaim is best by playing prospects, because they take issue with perceived role mismatches. It's why they struggle to solve solveable problems. It's why the organization does stuff like failing to realize Couturier can play offense too, or becomes convinced no-way slugs are better on the 4th line than skilled players.

 

[Magua]

We just can't agree on player evaluations when you say things like Tippett creates more than Frost, it's just not true. That's not a knock on Tippett. He uses his legs to create for himself, but he doesn't create for others on any consistent basis. He makes some decent passes, but I wouldn't call him a plus passer by any means.

Everyone is a better player with time and space vs when they are closely checked. This isn't a real knock on Frost. I also can't fathom how you can say Frost doesn't make plays in tight...I could write paragraphs about him, but I'll just post this video. You watch that and tell me Frost can't make plays in tight. Count how many plays he made on entries that turned into a scoring chance.



When it comes to Cates, he's got a very active stick on the forecheck, and excels in that role. He's good in tight corners. That is not the same as making in-tight surgical passes, like you see in the video from Frost above. You might be right with Cates, he might be trying too hard, or he might be overthinking, or overworked. But one thin is for sure, he's playing lots of minutes with offensive guys and he's not producing. It's like they are forcing him into a position he's not really suited for. I like Cates, and I don't even mind the attempt at making him a center, but they are making the team worse by playing him at 1C when there is a clearly better option in Frost to play with TK and Farabee.

I'm also very excited to see Brink as well. Loved him during his draft year, very excited he was drafted by the Flyers, and I think he's got lots of skill to add to a group that desperately needs it.

He called Tippett the best young passer on the team, so that’s the divide trying to be bridged.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The solution to everything: "get better players." If only it was so easy.

Though I think there is a real aspect of chemistry with lines and pairs, there are complementary skill sets.
And there are players who are "oil and water."

Fair, especially in a hard cap environment, but you know what I mean. There are good, solid NHLers out there every year that get undervalued because they don't fit a narrow archetype.

My go-to example has always been Sam Gagner.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He called Tippett the best young passer on the team, so that’s the divide trying to be bridged.

I'm pleasantly surprised at Tippett's in-zone passing taking a step up this year. But..no. No he simply isn't.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

If Fletcher heard you speaking against building for fit/role like this, he would very angrily crank up "Wonderful Christmastime" (his favorite Beatles song which he plays 24/7) all the way to medium volume to drown you out. Flahr would scowl as he eats another raw deboned pig.

Not a Beatles song Biff.

 

[deadhead]

Fair, especially in a hard cap environment, but you know what I mean. There are good, solid NHLers out there every year that get undervalued because they don't fit a narrow archetype.

My go-to example has always been Sam Gagner.

Who had one of his best seasons under Torts. Go figure.

I don't think you have to have a narrow focus on what players do, rather, one way to extract value is to understand who can play for you and how to use them. Torts has a better feel than AV, I think. One problem for the Flyers right now is I don't think Fletcher and Torts are on the same page, and I wouldn't be suprised if Torts was quietly lobbying for Briere, with whom he seems to have more of a rapport.

Look how he's adjusted to Hayes, recognized that Hayes couldn't play his style of center, but has value at wing where his defensive limitations can be sheltered while using his offensive skills to balance a center with limited playmaking skills like Laughton.

The real problem with the 4th line isn't roles but the lack of alternatives, Laczynski is injured, Sedlak retired, Desnoyers is probably a year away. You can't ask Deslauriers, Brown and MacEwen to do much more than grind. Sometimes the players you have dictate the roles in which you use them.

And then there are players that are hard to fit, TDA has great talent and a knack for mistakes, which is more acceptable at forward than on defense where there is no one behind you.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not a Beatles song Biff.

Fletcher thinks it is. Their best.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

Fletcher thinks it is. Their best.

Chuck doesn't know any Beatles songs beyond Hey Jude and Let It Be, and he thinks both are just a little too boisterous for his tastes.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who had one of his best seasons under Torts. Go figure.

I don't think you have to have a narrow focus on what players do, rather, one way to extract value is to understand who can play for you and how to use them. Torts has a better feel than AV, I think. One problem for the Flyers right now is I don't think Fletcher and Torts are on the same page, and I wouldn't be suprised if Torts was quietly lobbying for Briere, with whom he seems to have more of a rapport.

Look how he's adjusted to Hayes, recognized that Hayes couldn't play his style of center, but has value at wing where his defensive limitations can be sheltered while using his offensive skills to balance a center with limited playmaking skills like Laughton.

The real problem with the 4th line isn't roles but the lack of alternatives, Laczynski is injured, Sedlak retired, Desnoyers is probably a year away. You can't ask Deslauriers, Brown and MacEwen to do much more than grind. Sometimes the players you have dictate the roles in which you use them.

And then there are players that are hard to fit, TDA has great talent and a knack for mistakes, which is more acceptable at forward than on defense where there is no one behind you.

You insisted Tortorella would have all the power and that he'd insist someone like Lycksell should be up and playing.

Were you wrong?