2022/23 Roster Thread XVI: Suite 16, Room for Improvement

[Beef Invictus]

I said this the other day, but let's say he doesn't morph into a superstar in the back half of the season (a likely outcome). It's a lot of the same to an unbiased eye: growing offensive confidence, nice inconsistent production, intelligent subtleties, a sense that he's an NHL player.......but not this obvious top 6 stud. Like what are these people setting up as "getting there"?

Tage Thompson had 14 points in 38 games at age 23, after 21 points in 107 games prior. Boy, does Buffalo regret not shipping him for slop. Plenty of guys come into their own at age ~24+. Karlsson, Terry, Marchessault, Bennett, Verhaeghe, Bunting, Gourde, Hagel, Bjorkstrand, Burakovsky, Tatar, Eriksson Ek, Nichushkin. It's an endless list! And Frost missed 1 entire year. He's an RFA; he'd be cheap to re-sign; this team is not going to be remotely competitive so ice time is readily available. Frost is the exact natural talent + statistical intrigue that a 2nd team feasts upon.

Why is Frost the only player on the team and in the league who, after 3 pro years, MUST be arbitrarily "there"? The Flyers traded the equivalent of a top 10 1st for a 27 year old defender they wanted to "develop." You wonder why this team stinks at developing and keeping young talent.

I don't wonder

 

[Striiker]

BECAUSE HES THE WRONG TYPE

SKILL HAS NO PLACE HERE

GOONS, GRINDERS, AND SNIPERS ONLY

 

[Beef Invictus]

BECAUSE HES THE WRONG TYPE

SKILL HAS NO PLACE HERE

GOONS, GRINDERS, AND SNIPERS ONLY

"Snipers"

 

[FLYguy3911]

I never understood the need to break out production vs. higher and lower competition. Is not producing against lesser competition somehow better and not a red flag?

 

[BillDineen]

BECAUSE HES THE WRONG TYPE

SKILL HAS NO PLACE HERE

GOONS, GRINDERS, AND SNIPERS ONLY

Dump it in, d are scared of the goon, grinder causes a loose puck below the circles and the sniper buries it. It's fool proof!

 

[BiggE]

It’s just classic Flyers that now, when the team is garbage, we get 2 quality young goaltenders. God f***ing forbid we could of had them in 2010.

Now all they’ll do is backstop us to the 11th overall pick and we all know how well picking 11OA worked out last time.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

It’s just classic Flyers that now, when the team is garbage, we get 2 quality young goaltenders. God f***ing forbid we could of had them in 2010.

Now all they’ll do is backstop us to the 11th overall pick and we all know how well picking 11OA worked out last time.

The fact that they are stealing games for us right now is legit comedy. Make you cry comedy, but comedy

 

[kudymen]

On the other hand trading for a player with Girard's skillset sounds like polar opposite of what Fletcher would do.

It’s funny because it’s true

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Also saw some discussion about Frost - since December 1st he has something like 14 pts in 18 games. Obviously you do wish that maybe the points were spread out a little bit more, but he has passed the eye test for me.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Also saw some discussion about Frost - since December 1st he has something like 14 pts in 18 games. Obviously you do wish that maybe the points were spread out a little bit more, but he has passed the eye test for me.

The flyers hands are literally tied to give him a consistent opportunity. Look what he is doing with it…

 

[flyersnorth]

I don't know what will happen the rest of the way, but Chuck Fletcher absolutely cannot be the person leading it.

And now we're facing what may become a worst-case scenario - good enough to stay out of the basement and not have a top 5 draft pick (maybe not even top 10), and bad enough to not even be in anyone's conversation for playoff team.

Except Chuck's. Seven points out of a wildcard spot, baby.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't know what will happen the rest of the way, but Chuck Fletcher absolutely cannot be the person leading it.

And now we're facing what may become a worst-case scenario - good enough to stay out of the basement and not have a top 5 draft pick (maybe not even top 10), and bad enough to not even be in anyone's conversation for playoff team.

Except Chuck's. Seven points out of a wildcard spot, baby.

They were desperately looking for any signs of winning to keep from firing Fletcher, and now the team has given it to them and potentially delayed his firing through another TDL that he will lose like he always has his entire career.

 

[Curufinwe]

It’s just classic Flyers that now, when the team is garbage, we get 2 quality young goaltenders. God f***ing forbid we could of had them in 2010.

Well, we didn't just get them. Hextall drafted a bunch of goalies and these two turned out pretty well so far.

 

[Curufinwe]

Also saw some discussion about Frost - since December 1st he has something like 14 pts in 18 games. Obviously you do wish that maybe the points were spread out a little bit more, but he has passed the eye test for me.

Of course he's piling up the points since he's spent almost half his ES minutes with Travis Konecny.

Noah Cates - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, we didn't just get them. Hextall drafted a bunch of goalies and these two turned out pretty well so far.

Very weird how the failed GM who is supposedly the cause of everything bad happening is behind just about every positive with this team, while all the biggest negatives are the result of poor misunderstood Fletcher who has constructed a team that is somehow secretly good and nobody appreciates.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I must be under valuing York, is there a defender with a low cap that can play the bottom pair at a reasonable level to replace York in this proposal?

It's two things. You're undervaluing York and the main piece in return, Girard, isn't helpful to us when we're rebuilding.

There's a few D you can take from us that don't have long-term viability here.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cherry on top: why does no one want to acknowledge he's been respectable defensively? Because it makes the narrative harder.

A lot of Flyers have had significantly worse goals against metrics than Frost the past two seasons, and somehow got less criticism for their defense than Frost has received. Here's a few interesting examples.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Tippett - 3.82 GA/60

Atkinson - 3.51 GA/60

Laughton - 3.38 GA/60

Farabee - 3.34 GA/60

Risto - 3.14 GA/60

Frost - 2.68 GA/60

 

[deadhead]

I said this the other day, but let's say he doesn't morph into a superstar in the back half of the season (a likely outcome). It's a lot of the same to an unbiased eye: growing offensive confidence, nice inconsistent production, intelligent subtleties, a sense that he's an NHL player.......but not this obvious top 6 stud. Like what are these people setting up as "getting there"?

Tage Thompson had 14 points in 38 games at age 23, after 21 points in 107 games prior. Boy, does Buffalo regret not shipping him for slop. Plenty of guys come into their own at age ~24+. Karlsson, Terry, Marchessault, Bennett, Verhaeghe, Bunting, Gourde, Hagel, Bjorkstrand, Burakovsky, Tatar, Eriksson Ek, Nichushkin. It's an endless list! Many of these players were sold low on, or just needed regular minutes. And Frost missed 1 entire year. He's an RFA; he'd be cheap to re-sign; this team is not going to be remotely competitive so ice time is readily available. Frost is the exact natural talent + statistical intrigue that a 2nd team feasts upon.

Why is Frost the only player on the team and in the league who, after 3 pro years, MUST be arbitrarily "there"? The Flyers traded the equivalent of a top 10 1st for a 27 year old defender they wanted to "develop." You wonder why this team stinks at developing and keeping young talent.

He doesn't have to "be there." He does have to be more consistent.

How come the same people who preach patience with Frost were ready to dump Tippett and think Cates shouldn't get a full season to see if he can handle center? Interesting Venn diagram.

Frost is playing much better on defense, Torts got through to him. And that will buy him time to polish his game, Torts doesn't bench players for mistakes of aggression (or TK would be nailed to the bench) - he benches them for making the same mistakes after being coached not to do that, and for not playing hard off the puck. Frost is playing hard off the puck, so he got a pass for a bad game when he made a couple turnovers that led to goals.

Frost and Cates are in a tough spot, both should be the 3C with easier matchups, but they're asked to play against top lines night after night. While they finally have set lines (at least until JVR is traded), it's still a tough row to hoe. And Torts knows that, and has been patient with the kids.

The only opinion that matters is Torts, and you can tell how he feels about a player by TOI:
Last ten games, 5x5:
Farabee 14:24
TK 14:13
Tippett 13:19
Frost 13:18
JVR 13:07
Cates 12:54
Laughton 12:43
Hayes 11:58
Alllison 11:33

 

[Curufinwe]

Frost is playing much better on defense, Torts got through to him.

His defensive results were actually better last season.

 

[VladDrag]

He doesn't have to "be there." He does have to be more consistent.

How come the same people who preach patience with Frost were ready to dump Tippett and think Cates shouldn't get a full season to see if he can handle center? Interesting Venn diagram.

Frost is playing much better on defense, Torts got through to him. And that will buy him time to polish his game, Torts doesn't bench players for mistakes of aggression (or TK would be nailed to the bench) - he benches them for making the same mistakes after being coached not to do that, and for not playing hard off the puck. Frost is playing hard off the puck, so he got a pass for a bad game when he made a couple turnovers that led to goals.

Frost and Cates are in a tough spot, both should be the 3C with easier matchups, but they're asked to play against top lines night after night. While they finally have set lines (at least until JVR is traded), it's still a tough row to hoe. And Torts knows that, and has been patient with the kids.

The only opinion that matters is Torts, and you can tell how he feels about a player by TOI:
Last ten games, 5x5:
Farabee 14:24
TK 14:13
Tippett 13:19
Frost 13:18
JVR 13:07
Cates 12:54
Laughton 12:43
Hayes 11:58
Alllison 11:33

The difference between Frost and Cates is that Cates' offensive has actually taken a step backwards playing at center, despite playing with the teams best offensive producers. 3 of the 4 most common offensive linemates are Farabee, TK, and Hayes. Those guys lead the team in 5v5 scoring (raw and rates), but Cates is no where to be seen. And it's not just scoring, it's watching him. He looks lost in the offensive zone. The puck rarely touches his stick in high danger zones. He's still fine in the cycle and on the forecheck, but he's not popping. It's a legit concern that he can't produce with the best offensive wingers on the team.

This is starkly different than Frost's growth this year. He's been very good defensively basically since the start of the season, but we've seen his offensive confidence grow. He's trying to do more with the puck, he looks more dangerous with the puck. He looked great on the powerplay last night with York and Hayes. He's been getting better. And I can promise you, that if Frost was playing with TK and Farabee consistently, he'd be scoring at much higher rates. Frost with TK is the best offensive pair this team can put together, and it needs to happen soon.

When it comes to Tippett, I'm still not sold on his brain. I think it's okay, but it's not special. He showed lots of promise in his first 10ish games but the consistency has faded. He's still using his best attribute (his feet), and to gain entries, and to get set up. He's also decent at finding a bit of space. He's a fine complementary player on the 2nd/3rd line depending on linemates, but he's not going to be a consistent creator.

 

[deadhead]

His defensive results were actually better last season.

His matchups were much easier.

 

[deadhead]

The difference between Frost and Cates is that Cates' offensive has actually taken a step backwards playing at center, despite playing with the teams best offensive producers. 3 of the 4 most common offensive linemates are Farabee, TK, and Hayes. Those guys lead the team in 5v5 scoring (raw and rates), but Cates is no where to be seen. And it's not just scoring, it's watching him. He looks lost in the offensive zone. The puck rarely touches his stick in high danger zones. He's still fine in the cycle and on the forecheck, but he's not popping. It's a legit concern that he can't produce with the best offensive wingers on the team.

This is starkly different than Frost's growth this year. He's been very good defensively basically since the start of the season, but we've seen his offensive confidence grow. He's trying to do more with the puck, he looks more dangerous with the puck. He looked great on the powerplay last night with York and Hayes. He's been getting better. And I can promise you, that if Frost was playing with TK and Farabee consistently, he'd be scoring at much higher rates. Frost with TK is the best offensive pair this team can put together, and it needs to happen soon.

When it comes to Tippett, I'm still not sold on his brain. I think it's okay, but it's not special. He showed lots of promise in his first 10ish games but the consistency has faded. He's still using his best attribute (his feet), and to gain entries, and to get set up. He's also decent at finding a bit of space. He's a fine complementary player on the 2nd/3rd line depending on linemates, but he's not going to be a consistent creator.

Tippett creates more than Frost on that line, driving play with his feet and his ability to play fast with the puck. He's erratic, but so is TK. He needs a lot of work, but he'll get the PT to work on his game, but his physical skills are unquestioned, size, speed, a plus wrist shot, good passer. While he'll never be a high IQ player (neither is TK), with experience he should improve his feel. Like TK, he makes things happen instead of waiting for his center.

Frost has improved, and by playing better without the puck he's getting the opportunity to work on his offense. But there's a reason he looks much better against bad teams and on the PP - he's a much better player in space than when he's closely checked - and that may mean a move to wing at some point if he doesn't improve. Frost still lacks functional strength and gets bumped off the puck, and he doesn't have the short area agility and feel to make plays in crowds or to create space and buy time. He's improving, but still limited.

Cates is almost the exact opposite, really good stick in crowds, was forcing turnovers left and right and "almost" making big plays. I think his problem is he lacks great skills (better skater than expected, but still . . . ) and is learning on the job. He's got a high IQ, but simply lacks experience. Right now he's probably thinking too much instead of playing instinctively.

The player I'm looking forward to seeing in a couple months is Brink. You can already see what Hayes does for Laughton in terms of a wing who can handle a lot of the playmaking duties for a center, I think Brink could provide that as well.

 

[wasup]

On the other hand trading for a player with Girard's skillset sounds like polar opposite of what Fletcher would do.

Don't buy into the Girard hype at all . There board wants him out of town cause his defensive play is crap . I've been over to their board a few times and they are not happy with him at all . I'm not sure I would do York for Girard straight up .

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Flyers Charities Auction for their Casino Night...

 

[wasup]

After our next game vs the Caps we play 9 games in 14 days . Who the F$%&k makes up these schedules . If the NHLPA has any brains , the thought of an 84 game schedule should be put to rest .