2022/23 Roster Thread XIX: 19th Nervous Breakdown

[deadhead]

They don't discourage offense, they also don't encourage offense first at the expense of defense.

TK has become a better player the last few years as he's develop a more well rounded game, doesn't seem to have hurt his offense (Couts getting hurt is another matter, TK could use a top center).

The real problem is they didn't draft for offense, so they don't have offensively talented players.

It's much easier to take someone who can skate and has offensive skills and teach them defensive fundamentals (this is where intangibles matter, is he coachable, work ethic, motor, etc.) than take a physical forward with average speed and skill and make him into a top offensive forward.

No amount of development was going to give Bunnaman hands, Vorobyev speed, or Twarynski vision.
Strome had all the tools except he skated like a turtle.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They don't discourage offense, they also don't encourage offense first at the expense of defense.

TK has become a better player the last few years as he's develop a more well rounded game, doesn't seem to have hurt his offense (Couts getting hurt is another matter, TK could use a top center).

The real problem is they didn't draft for offense, so they don't have offensively talented players.

It's much easier to take someone who can skate and has offensive skills and teach them defensive fundamentals (this is where intangibles matter, is he coachable, work ethic, motor, etc.) than take a physical forward with average speed and skill and make him into a top offensive forward.

No amount of development was going to give Bunnaman hands, Vorobyev speed, or Twarynski vision.
Strome had all the tools except he skated like a turtle.

They do discourage offense. You're not paying attention. All their statements prove that. Their actions prove that. The results prove that. Tortorella for 15ish years has seen offense as nothing more than defense played at the other end. That's how obsessed with defense he is.

Remember when they had a good streak where they won a lot of games? Driven by goal scoring. Remember when Tortorella's reaction was "we gotta stop doing that and focus on playing my way, and we are going to get back to that immediately?" and then the scoring promptly died. Have you paid attention to anything Tortorella has said for years, or how he coaches?

The level of denial and delusion you need to maintain to believe things that are the opposite of truth is staggering.

Tortorella is not who you've fantasized he is. That's why all your predictions about him have been wrong. Tortorella is the culmination of a shitty 13 year process that has driven this team down the drain.

 

[deadhead]

Blah, blah, blah.

Torts encourages his D-men to attack in the O-zone, that sound conservative to you:?
But he requires his forwards to be aware of their D-men and not get caught deep, which isn't exactly something new.

He doesn't emphasize defense, he emphasizes fundamentals, like back checking, get off the ice at the end of the shift instead of trying to stat pad (stay in the O-zone when you're too tired to get back), shot blocking, and so forth. He stresses winning board battles to gain or keep puck possession. None of these things stiffle offense. Panarin, St Louis, Atkinson, etc. Offensive players don't see their production decline under him - whereas players like Barzal had a fall off statistically when Trotz took over. Trotz is a defense first coach.

You may want them to play wide open, offense first hockey, but that would guarantee they get blown out night after night. Because they don't have the horses to run that track.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Blah, blah, blah.

Torts encourages his D-men to attack in the O-zone, that sound conservative to you:?
But he requires his forwards to be aware of their D-men and not get caught deep, which isn't exactly something new.

He doesn't emphasize defense, he emphasizes fundamentals, like back checking, get off the ice at the end of the shift instead of trying to stat pad (stay in the O-zone when you're too tired to get back), shot blocking, and so forth. He stresses winning board battles to gain or keep puck possession. None of these things stiffle offense. Panarin, St Louis, Atkinson, etc. Offensive players don't see their production decline under him - whereas players like Barzal had a fall off statistically when Trotz took over. Trotz is a defense first coach.

You may want them to play wide open, offense first hockey, but that would guarantee they get blown out night after night. Because they don't have the horses to run that track.

Blah, blah, blah. This complete lack of understanding of both Tortorella and Trotz is tiresome.

Trotz proved an ability to scheme offensive systems that dissect very good teams on his way to a Cup win. Tortorella hasnt. Tortorella openly told us he has no understanding of offense today, and everything we've seen so far confirms that. It also means he doesn't know how to defend against it. He's shit. He's long behind the times. That's why he's your hero Clarke's favorite.

They already get blown out nightly playing coward hockey. You are defending the acumen and processes of someone convinced that Cates is better than Frost and Barkov is better than McDavid. He is trash. He isn't who you thought he is. He doesn't follow the values you think he does. For someone who worships him, you have zero understanding of him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And while I'm here, Tortorella does not value actual speed. He values the illusion of speed. He wants someone who looks like he's trying hard. Actual results are meaningless. That's why he meshes with this organization so well. The substance is irrelevant.

 

[IronMarshal]

Frost is who he needs to keep an eye on

Not his little pets, Cates and Tippett. The best one of the three is the one they’re unsure about.

f***ing dinosaur.

Reading through the thread here and below, and I have to say I disagree with this. The ”pets” thing is ad hominem. I have always been a Frost fan despite his early aversion to getting after it. His game still lacks bite, but at least he makes some skill plays and has shown less an aversion to getting into the greasy areas. He has had positive growth, but realistically, at this point, has he shown himself to be at least a second line player? That is where he needs to play. Cates on the other hand has a clear role in the NHL as a solid third or fourth line player. A solid checker, penalty killer with solid skills and a high hockey IQ. That is more valuable to a team than a scorer who doesn’t score. Cates is clearly the superior NHL player right now, and probably going forward.
Tippet obviously has been a better fit as a winger who can play second and third line. He looks like a solid player going forward.
I love Allison. Was a big proponent of them drafting him. You can look that up. He needs to stay healthy and show the spark he showed when he first arrived. He needs to be physical, high energy, and smart. It would be nice if he had a center who could feed him with his shot and ability around the goal.
So, of the 4, I absolutely agree that Frost and Allison have more to prove than Cates and Tippet. Take note that Frost and Allison were my “pets” rather than Cates and Tippet.
I know this isn’t popular as it goes against the groupthink here, but I think if we can put away our dinosaur hatred and look at this one comment with clear eyes, maybe, just maybe, some people can be objective on this and break from the herd.

If only one of the cowardly beats would ask him that in a post-game presser.

Great question, and it would be nice if Charlie would ask it. I doubt anyone else would have the gumption to.

 

[Striiker]

Reading through the thread here and below, and I have to say I disagree with this. The ”pets” thing is ad hominem. I have always been a Frost fan despite his early aversion to getting after it. His game still lacks bite, but at least he makes some skill plays and has shown less an aversion to getting into the greasy areas. He has had positive growth, but realistically, at this point, has he shown himself to be at least a second line player? That is where he needs to play. Cates on the other hand has a clear role in the NHL as a solid third or fourth line player. A solid checker, penalty killer with solid skills and a high hockey IQ. That is more valuable to a team than a scorer who doesn’t score. Cates is clearly the superior NHL player right now, and probably going forward.
Tippet obviously has been a better fit as a winger who can play second and third line. He looks like a solid player going forward.
I love Allison. Was a big proponent of them drafting him. You can look that up. He needs to stay healthy and show the spark he showed when he first arrived. He needs to be physical, high energy, and smart. It would be nice if he had a center who could feed him with his shot and ability around the goal.
So, of the 4, I absolutely agree that Frost and Allison have more to prove than Cates and Tippet. Take note that Frost and Allison were my “pets” rather than Cates and Tippet.
I know this isn’t popular as it goes against the groupthink here, but I think if we can put away our dinosaur hatred and look at this one comment with clear eyes, maybe, just maybe, some people can be objective on this and break from the herd.

Ok, John.

 

[Canfly]

Reading through the thread here and below, and I have to say I disagree with this. The ”pets” thing is ad hominem. I have always been a Frost fan despite his early aversion to getting after it. His game still lacks bite, but at least he makes some skill plays and has shown less an aversion to getting into the greasy areas. He has had positive growth, but realistically, at this point, has he shown himself to be at least a second line player? That is where he needs to play. Cates on the other hand has a clear role in the NHL as a solid third or fourth line player. A solid checker, penalty killer with solid skills and a high hockey IQ. That is more valuable to a team than a scorer who doesn’t score. Cates is clearly the superior NHL player right now, and probably going forward.
Tippet obviously has been a better fit as a winger who can play second and third line. He looks like a solid player going forward.
I love Allison. Was a big proponent of them drafting him. You can look that up. He needs to stay healthy and show the spark he showed when he first arrived. He needs to be physical, high energy, and smart. It would be nice if he had a center who could feed him with his shot and ability around the goal.
So, of the 4, I absolutely agree that Frost and Allison have more to prove than Cates and Tippet. Take note that Frost and Allison were my “pets” rather than Cates and Tippet.
I know this isn’t popular as it goes against the groupthink here, but I think if we can put away our dinosaur hatred and look at this one comment with clear eyes, maybe, just maybe, some people can be objective on this and break from the herd.


Great question, and it would be nice if Charlie would ask it. I doubt anyone else would have the gumption to.

Wow. I can understand Allison because he his made of glass and gets hurt more often than playing but you don't give up on Frost who has more upside to his game then Tippet and Cates

 

[wasup]

Yup. Puck possession is what prevents goals, not size or hitting or checking or any other dinosaur-fetish bullshit.

No No No , dump and chase is the way . Get with the program baby .

 

[deadhead]

No No No , dump and chase is the way . Get with the program baby .

Every team dumps and chases. The difference between the best and worst zone entry teams is probably between 50% clean and 40%, and I'll bet that gap is driven by 2 or 3 players who are really good at it.

If you're gonna dump and chase more than half the time, it probably helps to be good at it.

 

[deadhead]

Sample is getting pretty large, since Risto was benched and returned to the lineup on 11/8.
51g: 15:32 (5x5), CF 46.56%, xGF 50.80%, xGFrel +3.94, xGF/60: 2.32, 0.52 pp/60.
That bodes well if he can keep it up, make it much easier to move him in a year or two.

 

[Lindberg]

Sample is getting pretty large, since Risto was benched and returned to the lineup on 11/8.
51g: 15:32 (5x5), CF 46.56%, xGF 50.80%, xGFrel +3.94, xGF/60: 2.32, 0.52 pp/60.
That bodes well if he can keep it up, make it much easier to move him in a year or two.

Oh he's gonna be so valuable. Good thing this club didn't need all those picks to make that trade happen.

 

[wasup]

Every team dumps and chases. The difference between the best and worst zone entry teams is probably between 50% clean and 40%, and I'll bet that gap is driven by 2 or 3 players who are really good at it.

If you're gonna dump and chase more than half the time, it probably helps to be good at it.

You dump and chase if you are cut off on entry and have guys coming behind with speed . Tort's has guys dumping and chasing even when they have a chance to enter with puck . He goes nuts when guys try to east west it , you know the way most of the league try to do .

Tort's also went directly after Rocky frinkin Thompson stating that he is an offensive minded guru . Go take a look at Thompson,s hockey playing resume , its' a joke .
[ Elite prospects Rocky Thompson } go look it up . It's like having Shit truck 44 coaching the offense but shit truck has more offense than Thompson by a mile . You hire guys who actually know how to create offense not some knuckle grinding nut jobs who have no clue .

Thompson , Lappy , Stewie , Samuelsson are the guys they have to teach so no wonder we can't score . We have the worst pp in the league we employ 2 D , 1 F in ot and we dump and chase constantly . Talk about moronic

You can keep defending Tort's all you want and we know you will , but your ability to actually watch the game and see what is going on instead of just defending everything this organization does no matter what is truly mind blowing . You must get exhausted .

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sample is getting pretty large, since Risto was benched and returned to the lineup on 11/8.
51g: 15:32 (5x5), CF 46.56%, xGF 50.80%, xGFrel +3.94, xGF/60: 2.32, 0.52 pp/60.
That bodes well if he can keep it up, make it much easier to move him in a year or two.

He's not getting moved.

You're also cherrypicking again.

 

[IronMarshal]

Wow. I can understand Allison because he his made of glass and gets hurt more often than playing but you don't give up on Frost who has more upside to his game then Tippet and Cates

Nobody is giving up on him yet, but the timeline for that has shrunk. The simple fact is, right now Cates and Tippet are better players who fit roles on the team. Frosty is not there. I know that goes against the “wisdom of the board” but I think objectively what I said is right.

Ok, John.

i know I shouldn’t reply to this, but who is John?

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I can't believe we are going to have another season of these ridiculous discussions

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

You know what sample size is even larger?

His entire career.

 

[deadhead]

Since Dec 7, when both centers were given solid linemates when JVR returned to the line:

Frost CF 49.68%, CFrel +2.56, xGF 49.07%, xGFrel +1.16, xGA/60: 2.70, pp/60: 2.05, O-zone 62.42%
Cates CF 47.14%, CFrel -0.94, xGF 48.51%, xGFrel +0.37, xGA/60: 2.37, pp/60: 1.57, O-Zone 44.57%

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The Flyers can’t even enter the offensive zone consistently when up a man, & people are acting like it’s a tactical issue.

 

[kudymen]

No sample size is larger than the one since Dec 7th.

 

[VladDrag]

Reading through the thread here and below, and I have to say I disagree with this. The ”pets” thing is ad hominem. I have always been a Frost fan despite his early aversion to getting after it. His game still lacks bite, but at least he makes some skill plays and has shown less an aversion to getting into the greasy areas. He has had positive growth, but realistically, at this point, has he shown himself to be at least a second line player? That is where he needs to play. Cates on the other hand has a clear role in the NHL as a solid third or fourth line player. A solid checker, penalty killer with solid skills and a high hockey IQ. That is more valuable to a team than a scorer who doesn’t score. Cates is clearly the superior NHL player right now, and probably going forward.
Tippet obviously has been a better fit as a winger who can play second and third line. He looks like a solid player going forward.
I love Allison. Was a big proponent of them drafting him. You can look that up. He needs to stay healthy and show the spark he showed when he first arrived. He needs to be physical, high energy, and smart. It would be nice if he had a center who could feed him with his shot and ability around the goal.
So, of the 4, I absolutely agree that Frost and Allison have more to prove than Cates and Tippet. Take note that Frost and Allison were my “pets” rather than Cates and Tippet.
I know this isn’t popular as it goes against the groupthink here, but I think if we can put away our dinosaur hatred and look at this one comment with clear eyes, maybe, just maybe, some people can be objective on this and break from the herd.


Great question, and it would be nice if Charlie would ask it. I doubt anyone else would have the gumption to.

You know, when you use terms like group think and herd, you sound like you're trying to sound smarter and better than everyone else. If you want to have a conversation, I would suggest not trying to come off like an asshole. Now, I don't think that's what you were trying to do, but that's exactly how it reads.


At any rate, regarding Cates, Frost, Tippett... They all have proven to be NHL players right, even if none of them get better. The question isn't what are they right now, it's what is it they will grow into....keeping in mind there probably isn't likely a whole lot of growth left in terms of pure hockey play from any of them. The question is more like, is there anything in their skill set where you can extract more positive value. In terms of all three, that's where Frost shines higher than Cates or Tippett. It was pretty clear Frost lacked confidence over the first 20 game of the season. But there's been some very positive signs. His pedigree suggests there is more there, he's been one of the best players of his age group, so you want to see if there is another step there. And he's the most likely of all three to be a top 6 player long term. I am willing to bet Frost puts up a 50-60 point season next year (this is obviously depending on other variables).

Tippett has been good this year. But can you say there is anything to his game that suggests there's more fat on the bone? He generates thru his athletic ability but lacks high end processing. Still a good middle player, but I don't see much growth left and in my eyes he's the most likely of the three to see regression, although I don't think you will see it.

With Cates, I just don't see a whole lot of growth based on his history. He's been a great defender but a black hole offensively. I do wonder if you switched Frost and Cates from the beginning of the year (gave Frost TK and Farabee as most common wingers) what would he look like right now.

 

[Striiker]

i know I shouldn’t reply to this, but who is John?

 

[VladDrag]

Since Dec 7, when both centers were given solid linemates when JVR returned to the line:

Frost CF 49.68%, CFrel +2.56, xGF 49.07%, xGFrel +1.16, xGA/60: 2.70, pp/60: 2.05, O-zone 62.42%
Cates CF 47.14%, CFrel -0.94, xGF 48.51%, xGFrel +0.37, xGA/60: 2.37, pp/60: 1.57, O-Zone 44.57%

But JvR wasn't wanted by other teams because he sucked for the last 13 games or something like that. So what does that say about Frost?

 

[deadhead]

With Cates, I just don't see a whole lot of growth based on his history. He's been a great defender but a black hole offensively. I do wonder if you switched Frost and Cates from the beginning of the year (gave Frost TK and Farabee as most common wingers) what would he look like right now.

Since Cates had a stable line at center, he's scoring at a solid 3C pace.
Given he came out of an ultra-conservative college system, and moved to center as a rookie, why would you think he has no offensive upside left?

Reason I used Dec 7 was both centers had solid linemates (JVR and Tippett for Frost) after that date, so that eliminates that excuse. Before then Cates shifted back and forth from LW and center with multiple linemates including MacEwen for a long stretch.

They are different players in different roles, Frost gets the easier defensive assignments b/c he's the better offensive player, Cates is used as a shutdown center.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Flyers can’t even enter the offensive zone consistently when up a man, & people are acting like it’s a tactical issue.

It often is.