mja
Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Don't stop there. He also spent 14th overall and a 2nd round pick swap to "upgrade" from Robert Hagg to Rasmus Ristolainen, and tie up an additional 5.5 in cap space.
2022/23 Roster Thread XIX: 19th Nervous Breakdown
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Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
deadhead
Registered User
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In a year Risto will have 3 years left, if he continues his improved play, he will have real value, especially if you retain a million or two - GMs love big RHDs.
Carolina was interested in TDA at the TDL, next year, as a UFA, if he merely gets his defense back to his mediocre play on the Rangers, he'll have real value at the TDL.
FatTugboatFlahr
Registered User
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
“In their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way, I know your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?”
“Chuck Fletcher.”
“ Oh. Uh, yes, actually.”
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
my god that lineup is sooo talented..
surely we are SC bound.
its almost unfair to the rest of the league..
hahaaaa...
surely we are SC bound.
its almost unfair to the rest of the league..
hahaaaa...
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Hollywood Cannon
I'm Away From My Desk
deadhead
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It's da facts. Zito pushed all his chips in the middle of the table and lost, and has nothing to show for it.
Fletcher dribbled out his assets, and the next GM can recoup some of them.
Which is why I'm so glad Fletcher never went all out trying to win, he could have done what the Ranger GM did before they collapsed, trade 4 1st rd picks trying to get over the top.
The difference between TB and the others who tried it, TB had already been to the SC finals, so they were a SC contender, which meant gambling to take the next step made sense. Too many teams (and that includes Fletcher in Minn) are marginal top 8 teams that can't be made into SC contenders with one or two TDL acquisitions.
Hollywood Cannon
I'm Away From My Desk
It’s unbelievably dishonest and lacking so much context. That’s what it is.
Zito pushed “all of his chips” in for a team that won the Presidents’ trophy and had been competing and building for several years up to that point.
Chuck Fletcher? Did all this and has missed the playoffs three straight years.
They’re not comparable and to attempt to do so just reeks of bias and agenda.
The only difference between Tampa doing it and other teams doing it is that Tampa won. It’s confirmation bias.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
It's dishonest because of all the moves you left out on Fletcher's side, on top of deliberately deleting the vital context of both teams situations. You don't need to debase yourself by lying for him. He doesn't even know you exist.
JojoTheWhale
"You should keep it." -- Striiker
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Tampa takes a completely different approach to their buys than everyone else and you give me Kendrick Perkins On Ice.
deadhead
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Florida had been on a similar regular season pace the year before and lost in the first round to TB 4-2.
They shot their wad and lost in the 2nd rd and lost 4-0 to TB.
Maybe the problem was they were built for the regular season? And a couple TDL acquisitions didn't change that.
I mean have you checked out Bob's playoff history?
And for all the slobbering over offense, note that they had 17 goals in 6 games, then 23 goals in 10 games in the playoffs.
Now they're cap strapped, out (4) 1st rd picks, a 3rd, 4th, Levi, Tippett, Marchment, Weegar and Huberdeau and only Tkachuck and Reinhart to show for it. Next year they'll have $11M cap room but need to rebuild the defense.
Lundell is on the Panthers, but Deniskenko is meh in the AHL. 38g 8-5 13 -14 (ES). Sourdif has also failed to impress in the AHL 43g 4-11 14 (ES). Samoskevich on Michigan is probably their best prospect.
The gutsy thing would have been to do what Sakic did in Colorado, realize it's not sustainable, take a step back, hoard your assets, find a way to dump Bob and his $10M cap hit, and reload for next season.
Meanwhile, as Bob and Knight struggle, the 7th rd goalie they threw in the Reinhart trade put up a .964 Sv% in WJC-20 two years ago, .952% in college last year, and .932% this year.
Hollywood Cannon
I'm Away From My Desk
None of this long post matters. Who are you even talking to or arguing against?
You’re once again attempting to get away from the original point that Fletcher and Zito are not remotely comparable unless you’re biased or have an agenda.
But just for the sake of responding your post… your big point against them is that the Panthers had two consecutive seasons of the top team in the NHL pace and them losing to the Lightning in playoff series’ is somehow supposed to erase all of that?
@JojoTheWhale it’s happening again.
JojoTheWhale
"You should keep it." -- Striiker
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“Built for the regular season” is code for “Doesn’t confirm my priors” and you can’t convince me otherwise.
Now Sakic is good, actually.
Now Sakic is good, actually.
deadhead
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My point is that GMs will gamble on going deep into the playoffs and make foolish short-term decisions.
Fletcher did that in Minn, the Ranger GM did that and Zito just did that.
So for all of Fletcher's fault, be thankful he didn't go overboard here and strip the cupboard bare trying to save his job.
He kept the high 2023 1st, and (2) 1st rd picks in 2024.
A new GM might get something for Hayes with money retained and a big haul for Provorov before the draft.
Maybe move some more bodies at the next TDL (TDA, Laughton, Allison) and next summer (Risto, Atkinson).
Fletcher did that in Minn, the Ranger GM did that and Zito just did that.
So for all of Fletcher's fault, be thankful he didn't go overboard here and strip the cupboard bare trying to save his job.
He kept the high 2023 1st, and (2) 1st rd picks in 2024.
A new GM might get something for Hayes with money retained and a big haul for Provorov before the draft.
Maybe move some more bodies at the next TDL (TDA, Laughton, Allison) and next summer (Risto, Atkinson).
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
You can’t make deadline additions as one of the worst teams in the league. Fletcher not adding the last 2 years at the deadline is the lowest bar he can clear. He sure as shit gambled assets every summer though (except 2020) because he foolishly believed this was a playoff team entering each year.
No, he didn’t trade prospects. But otherwise? He ate nearly everything else in the pantry and didn’t once go to the supermarket to restock. His value additions are nearly zero. Like most things, focusing on assets out, which you’re still minimizing, isn’t the whole story: it’s about net gains.
No, he didn’t trade prospects. But otherwise? He ate nearly everything else in the pantry and didn’t once go to the supermarket to restock. His value additions are nearly zero. Like most things, focusing on assets out, which you’re still minimizing, isn’t the whole story: it’s about net gains.
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Hollywood Cannon
I'm Away From My Desk
Your point was this:
Which was called out as being incredibly dishonest.
Chuck made foolish decisions to be one of the worst teams in the league for multiple years. Zito made ”foolish” decisions to try and put a team that “paced for two years as the top team in the NHL” over the top.
Basically the same.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
"Built for the regular season" is always a pile of shit. All that means, usually, is a coaching issue.
Crapping on Zito while he has a team and situation vastly better than ours doesn't serve as a defense of Fletcher. You should stop debasing yourself like this.
freakydallas13
Registered User
I don't know if you know this, but what other teams do doesn't make what Fletcher does any better.
In fact, it doesn't change anything. Fletcher's moves are still awful, no matter how many times you compare them to other moves.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
He did strip the cupboard bare. There's nothing. Their future has never been this bleak.
You do not need to defend everything he does. He's never gonna call you up to thank you.
freakydallas13
Registered User
What a stupid way of writing he has 4 years left.
JojoTheWhale
"You should keep it." -- Striiker
- May 22, 2008
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You can often understand angles of approach even if you disagree with them. The idea that they're not significantly worse off than they were when Fletcher took over is so detached from reality that it's not worth your time to discuss. Time makes your assets worse. That's how it works for everyone and a large part of why it's so hard to build an org out fully.
The Hextall era assets are all older and you got basically zero significant jumps from them outside of the Goalies. The prospect depth was ritually disemboweled. If you love Gauthier and think he can be young Scheifele, that's your call. But that doesn't make up for everything else.
What they do have is more middling prime age NHL talent. Hooray.
The Hextall era assets are all older and you got basically zero significant jumps from them outside of the Goalies. The prospect depth was ritually disemboweled. If you love Gauthier and think he can be young Scheifele, that's your call. But that doesn't make up for everything else.
What they do have is more middling prime age NHL talent. Hooray.
deadhead
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Playoffs are different in all sports. Some is luck, but a lot is how a team is constructed.“Built for the regular season” is code for “Doesn’t confirm my priors” and you can’t convince me otherwise.
Now Sakic is good, actually.
Regular seasons tend to be a marathon, in baseball you need a deep starting staff, in NHL, offensive teams fare better b/c opponents don't bear down every game and they can quickly put games out of reach.
NHL playoffs tend to be more physical as refs swallow their whistles and teams check at a higher level of intensity (smaller windows). It's harder to outscore your mistakes, and weakness in goal is magnified.
Both the Pens and Lightning won when they built a team capable of tight checking as well as scoring.
Note when Rutherford promoted Sullivan, they also brought up a half dozen of his AHL players and shipped some veterans out of town. In TB, they brought in Goodrow and Coleman and gave Guorde a bigger role, as well as more size on defense.
And they had top goalie play as well.
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