2022/23 Roster Thread XIX: 19th Nervous Breakdown

[Tripod]

Provorov is one of the main exhibits for this team's inability to develop players.

What about playing multiple D as forwards? Is that good development?

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Talking about Gauthier being a 30 goal guy when he could just as easily be the next Dal Colle.

This is also something I worry about, due to his iq not being that high (based of how he plays) but I'm hoping that's not going to happen, but I also didn't like Dal colle when he was drafted, he had bust written all over him (at least to me)

 

[renberg]

Provorov is one of the main exhibits for this team's inability to develop players.

There is something off with Provorov. His first three seasons gave every indication that he could be a solid first pairing defenseman in the future. Then the bottom fell out of his game.
His play slipped but beyond that an attitude came out that needed adjustment. AV and Fletcher should have nipped that in the bud but they didn’t. I doubt that Tortorella and Briere can remake him.
Provorov has a sense of entitlement to him. He tends to not take responsibility for his mistakes and is willing to shove them off onto others. Unfortunately his act now is known throughout the league because of his refusal to go along with his teammates on the jersey night. He should be moved but the club will have a hard time getting a quality return.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Orange Chimo sticks and a Tom Selleck stash

bullards balcony

 

[blackjackmulligan]

There is something off with Provorov. His first three seasons gave every indication that he could be a solid first pairing defenseman in the future. Then the bottom fell out of his game.
His play slipped but beyond that an attitude came out that needed adjustment. AV and Fletcher should have nipped that in the bud but they didn’t. I doubt that Tortorella and Briere can remake him.
Provorov has a sense of entitlement to him. He tends to not take responsibility for his mistakes and is willing to shove them off onto others. Unfortunately his act now is known throughout the league because of his refusal to go along with his teammates on the jersey night. He should be moved but the club will have a hard time getting a quality return.

What type of return do you think he will get?

 

[CutOnDime97]

Provorov is one of the main exhibits for this team's inability to develop players.

 

[Magua]

More of a general statement. I'm not that eager to call out posters for their previous post history either. It doesn't serve much good.

My point was that group who extolled the virtues of Provorov as a Norris player is an entirely different group than the one who is skeptical on Gauthier's ultimate potential. If anything, the people who sung the praises of Provorov the loudest are the same people calling Gauthier a point/game center and franchise cornerstone.

It seems the origin of this conversation is saying Gauthier is not a "top tier" prospect -- which I'd agree with based on my own arbitrary definition; it might not be someone else's -- with the rebuttal that a Bob McKenzie source had him 3rd overall, but with no personal opinion on the player. Truthfully, I don't know how to have a discussion around that. Striiker would admit he doesn't have a personal opinion either -- he's co-opting the opinion of certain prospect watchers here, which I elaborated on. But it is our opinion. And I don't believe for one second that "the people Bob McKenzie knows [have] a better gauge of his talent level." Hell, it might've been a Flyers scout who had him 3rd overall.

 

[deadhead]

I think the verdict on Gauthier is the jury isn't in.

He wasn't in the top 4 group in that draft, but he did nothing in the WJC-20 or his freshman year at BC that declares he should have gone in the teens, either.

The physical skill is self-evident, how he'll develop over the next 2-3 seasons is still unknown.
We don't always have to rush to conclusions.

 

[renberg]

What type of return do you think he will get?

This will be a test of Briere’s ability to bargain. I suspect that a team would offer a #1 DC in ‘24 for him. There are teams that need minute eating defensemen, which Provorov is.

 

[Striiker]

Striiker would admit he doesn't have a personal opinion either -- he's co-opting the opinion of certain prospect watchers here, which I elaborated on. But it is our opinion. And I don't believe for one second that "the people Bob McKenzie knows [have] a better gauge of his talent level." Hell, it might've been a Flyers scout who had him 3rd overall.

Absolutely. My personal viewing sample size is the WJC and Twitter clips, which is not enough to be worth anything.

However, that small sample of mine, on top of the information from the people whose opinions I trust, plus everything I’ve read about him from other sources on the internet, is certainly enough to at the very least know he’s not a MacKinnon/Hughes/Eichel/Matthews level prospect, which has been my only point this entire time.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We don't always have to rush to conclusions.

Please remember this notion next time you're rushing to conclusions based on a few practices

 

[Magua]

certainly enough to at the very least know he’s not a MacKinnon/Hughes/Eichel/Matthews level prospect

Oh, I’d go plenty further than that.

 

[Striiker]

Oh, I’d go plenty further than that.

Well I’m not as inflammatory as you are.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Serious question. I won’t make fun of you. I won’t argue. If you were one of the people that thought Tippett was their best young NHL piece right now, have you swapped back to Farabee now? If not, are there enough games left in the season for that to happen?

The idea is just so weird to me that I don’t understand the thought process enough to grasp what the conversation is actually about. I’d like to do so.

 

[mize370]

Wonder what the reply would be if we offered a package of Provorov, tippett and whatever to a top 5 drafting team. Whatever being another player or pick or something.

 

[BigToe]

Serious question. I won’t make fun of you. I won’t argue. If you were one of the people that thought Tippett was their best young NHL piece right now, have you swapped back to Farabee now? If not, are there enough games left in the season for that to happen?

what if you think it's frost though

 

[Striiker]

what if you think it's frost though

Then you’re correct.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

This will be a test of Briere’s ability to bargain. I suspect that a team would offer a #1 DC in ‘24 for him. There are teams that need minute eating defensemen, which Provorov is.

I thin he can get a 20-32 range 1st. Good prospect/young nhl player. will also take back a contract to even out some of the money. Not a total slug though is my guess. He has good value imo. Plus only a 2 year commit if it doesnt work out.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

How about Frost and Tippet creeping up on the 40 point total. How Many thought that wasn't possible when the season started? Didn't some even say it wasn't realistic to expect Frost to get to 40.

 

[deadhead]

Serious question. I won’t make fun of you. I won’t argue. If you were one of the people that thought Tippett was their best young NHL piece right now, have you swapped back to Farabee now? If not, are there enough games left in the season for that to happen?

The idea is just so weird to me that I don’t understand the thought process enough to grasp what the conversation is actually about. I’d like to do so.

I always thought Farabee was their best young forward, scoring at a 1st line rate from 19-21.
TK is faster with a better shot, but Farabee is smarter with better hands and vision.

This year I've thought he deserved a mulligan b/c of the neck surgery, and his inability to work out before the season - his style of play requires strength, b/c he spends a lot of time in dirty areas where he has to battle for pucks and anchor.

I would also take Cates over Tippett, Cates isn't nearly as physically talented, but he has the highest hockey IQ on the team after Couts and he has great hands, consistently wins puck battles. Like Farabee, he'll get better as he gets stronger b/c he plays a similar style, look at some of those plays he's made behind the opposing net. He may top out as a good 3C, but I think he could also be a good 2LW. He's the reason Laughton is expendable.

Tippett and Frost are similar in that their overall game hasn't matched their raw physical sklls so far, but that's where experience comes into play, the question with all young players is at what point will they stop developing and flatline? Both have grown appreciably this season, how much can they improve next season? After 2-3 years of starting, and hitting 25-26, usually what you see is what you're gonna get until 30-32 when the age curve turns downward. So the next two seasons are key for both players, are they legitimate 2nd line forwards?

 

[Beef Invictus]

How about Frost and Tippet creeping up on the 40 point total. How Many thought that wasn't possible when the season started? Didn't some even say it wasn't realistic to expect Frost to get to 40.

He's gotten a level of usage that the team never would have allowed him without Couturier injured for the year. That's boosted him. Atkinson out has opened a ton of ice time for Tippett too.

Fate accidentally forced the team to do right things. The reason it was considered impossible was that he wouldn't get the usage required. Circumstances dictated otherwise.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He's gotten a level of usage that the team never would have allowed him without Couturier injured for the year. That's boosted him. Atkinson out has opened a ton of ice time for Tippett too.

Fate accidentally forced the team to do right things. The reason it was considered impossible was that he wouldn't get the usage required. Circumstances dictated otherwise.

So when those 2 are back expect his numbers to drop?

 

[VladDrag]

So when those 2 are back expect his numbers to drop?

As Beef eluded to, it depends on depolyment, imo.

If they keep Frost at a 2C, with offensive wingers (Farabee, TK, Tippett, Atkinson, maybe even Foerster next year), then my bet would is that he increases his points total to something around 50-55 points next season...

But if when Couts comes back (and can remain healthy), if they put Cates as 2C and give Cates those wingers, and usage, then I wouldn't expect much more than 30-40 points from Frost next season. All revolves around deployment imo.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

As Beef eluded to, it depends on depolyment, imo.

If they keep Frost at a 2C, with offensive wingers (Farabee, TK, Tippett, Atkinson, maybe even Foerster next year), then my bet would is that he increases his points total to something around 50-55 points next season...

But if when Couts comes back (and can remain healthy), if they put Cates as 2C and give Cates those wingers, and usage, then I wouldn't expect much more than 30-40 points from Frost next season. All revolves around deployment imo.

We shall see if Frost can elevate the wingers he is given now that he has a full year under his belt.

if Frost is given those wingers wont he also attract more difficult matchups against? Cates while having better wingers all year also sees other teams better players.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

He's gotten a level of usage that the team never would have allowed him without Couturier injured for the year. That's boosted him. Atkinson out has opened a ton of ice time for Tippett too.

Fate accidentally forced the team to do right things. The reason it was considered impossible was that he wouldn't get the usage required. Circumstances dictated otherwise.

Yeah but gotta give Tippett credit, homie has stepped up to the plate and has surprised me, I've been impressed with him, could be a very good middle 6 guy/core depending on his next contract