2022/23 Roster Thread XIX: 19th Nervous Breakdown

[Rebels57]

Couturier admittedly trained lightly all summer, after his first surgery in February '22, and got re-injured before camp even started. I don't know what's right or wrong for his health (shoutout not seeing the medical records), playing or not playing. Worth mention: skating with the team isn't necessarily playing in games.

I do know that there's absolutely no reason for this team to re-add Couturier and Konecny to have a dead cat bounce in the last 16 games. There's no positives. Even if Couturier got in 5-7 games in April, that doesn't mean shit for being prepared next October.

I love the "they cant have him fully rusty next season" excuse. Why not? They are going to suck next season too.

 

[Starat327]

He made a mistake overestimating Hextall because he listened too much to the draft “experts” on this forum.

...the ones who said Sanheim would be our best sefensemen of the crop and were...right?

The ones who said NAK would be a good bottom 6er but lacked the high end finish to be a top 6er and were.....right?

I'm so glad I don't have to read this verbal diarrhea.

 

[Lindberg]

...the ones who said Sanheim would be our best sefensemen of the crop and were...right?

The ones who said NAK would be a good bottom 6er but lacked the high end finish to be a top 6er and were.....right?

I'm so glad I don't have to read this verbal diarrhea.

Saying Sanheim would be the best is a bit of deflecting and ignoring how much Provorov and Sanheim didn't hit their supposed potentials around here.

Myers was hyped up as well and where is he now? I know HF is "hockey's future" but there definitely tends to be a bias towards the quality of prospects on this board.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Saying Sanheim would be the best is a bit of deflecting and ignoring how much Provorov and Sanheim didn't hit their supposed potentials around here.

Myers was hyped up as well and where is he now? I know HF is "hockey's future" but there definitely tends to be a bias towards the quality of prospects on this board.

Yes but the idea that it was the other people on this board that overhyped the Hextall prospects is so far from being genuine. The number one guilty party of overhyping the prospects is the one that is making that statement.

 

[Lindberg]

Yes but the idea that it was the other people on this board that overhyped the Hextall prospects is so far from being genuine. The number one guilty party of overhyping the prospects is the one that is making that statement.

Well the guilty party has a habit of changing his words every time it doesn't suit his narrative. Master class in politics if you ask me. I'm surprised he doesn't log all his posts in a database, searches key words, and then changes his post history to hide whatever incorrect ramblings he has.

People on this board take any criticism of certain prospects too seriously. They can't rationally come to the idea that their analysis wasn't that good. Provorov and Sanheim were both surefire #1's by some people on this board and speaking ill of it was like some quasi wacky death sentence. The best posters on this board (in my opinion) realize the importance of draft capital / cap space. Lotto tickets are just lotto tickets until they hit.

Both of them are good valuable players but neither of them hit their potential.

 

[Starat327]

Saying Sanheim would be the best is a bit of deflecting and ignoring how much Provorov and Sanheim didn't hit their supposed potentials around here.

Myers was hyped up as well and where is he now? I know HF is "hockey's future" but there definitely tends to be a bias towards the quality of prospects on this board.

Most of us always maintained that Sanheim had the highest ceiling by a fair margin. If the team couldnt develop either to reach that - despite clearly putting one of them in every poaition to succeed and limiting the other - than yeah, that certainly plays into the equation. But the fact that one is clearly better than the other despite the organization handicapping him, comparatively to the other, speaks volumes in itself.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I think if people knew he wouldn't get regular PP time in the NHL, something unfathomable to think of at the time given his reputation, expectations would have been lower. That was a bigger part of the appeal. At ES, he's been what he was supposed to be.

 

[deadhead]

Notice the excuses when a touted prospect fails to develop "it's the organization's fault" never the player, unless the hive decides they don't like a player (Provorov).

Sanheim is now playing for a HC who encourages his D-men to attack the O-zone (Torts has been pushing York to be MORE aggressive on offense). This should be the perfect scheme for Sanheim to wrack up points. He's always going to struggle in the D-zone b/c of lack of functional strength (high center of gravity, poor leverage), but should be compensating by being the team's best offensive defenseman.

Myers is a head case, big, strong fast, puts up good metrics (so much for metrics), but leaks goals. When Nashville gives up on you, and TB can't find PT for you despite your cap hit, it's the player.

Guys like Twarynski, Vorobyev, Bunnaman, NAK should have been solid 4th line guys if they lived up to their prospect rankings. NAK is on his 4th team, the others are buried in the AHL or KHL. I mean you don't need to be coached up that much to be a 4th line winger.

At some point you stop making excuses and admit these players just weren't very good.
Remember when people here whined they didn't sign Kalynuk, because he was fast and skilled?
You can go down the list, all those players who leave here to disappear.
No Sharpe or Seidenberg or Justin Williams in this group of prospects.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Yay context.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Notice the excuses when a touted prospect fails to develop "it's the organization's fault" never the player, unless the hive decides they don't like a player (Provorov).

Sanheim is now playing for a HC who encourages his D-men to attack the O-zone (Torts has been pushing York to be MORE aggressive on offense). This should be the perfect scheme for Sanheim to wrack up points. He's always going to struggle in the D-zone b/c of lack of functional strength (high center of gravity, poor leverage), but should be compensating by being the team's best offensive defenseman.

Myers is a head case, big, strong fast, puts up good metrics (so much for metrics), but leaks goals. When Nashville gives up on you, and TB can't find PT for you despite your cap hit, it's the player.

Guys like Twarynski, Vorobyev, Bunnaman, NAK should have been solid 4th line guys if they lived up to their prospect rankings. NAK is on his 4th team, the others are buried in the AHL or KHL. I mean you don't need to be coached up that much to be a 4th line winger.

At some point you stop making excuses and admit these players just weren't very good.
Remember when people here whined they didn't sign Kalynuk, because he was fast and skilled?
You can go down the list, all those players who leave here to disappear.
No Sharpe or Seidenberg or Justin Williams in this group of prospects.

Again, not actually reading what's being said.

The sum total of how many prospects cratered (almost all) and how many exceeded expectations (1) points to a developmental issue at both the AHL and NHL levels. But you know this.

Hell, I've argued many times that Robert Hagg was set up to fail. Because he was.

 

[deadhead]

Again, not actually reading what's being said.

The sum total of how many prospects cratered (almost all) and how many exceeded expectations (1) points to a developmental issue at both the AHL and NHL levels. But you know this.

Hell, I've argued many times that Robert Hagg was set up to fail. Because he was.

I think that was true in the past, but give Chuck this much credit, he did get the PTB to spend a lot more money on development, from additional coaches to expanding analytics, nutrition, the new facilities, etc. Some may have pre-dated him but he definitely upped the budgets and staff.

Now whether they hired the right people remains to be seen. But as with the Phillies, once the organization accepts the financial commitment, it's no longer a fight to set priorities, but a process to use those new found resources more effectively.

The other aspect of development, changing the focus, may require getting rid of the advisors and some of the "lifers" they've protected over the years.

I'd also point out that most prospects on most teams crater, we're just more aware of Flyer prospects failing to live up to expectations. Good teams have pro scouts that can identify other team's prospects whose failure is due to a bad fit, lack of patience, etc. That, as much as drafting, is how teams find surplus value.

 

[freakydallas13]

Again, not actually reading what's being said.

The sum total of how many prospects cratered (almost all) and how many exceeded expectations (1) points to a developmental issue at both the AHL and NHL levels. But you know this.

Hell, I've argued many times that Robert Hagg was set up to fail. Because he was.

He really is trying to use the fact that we don't like prospects who end up disappointing and that most of them end up disappointing as proof that the process is actually good.

It's incredibly ass backwards.

 

[deadhead]

No, you don't like prospects who don't fit the offense first prototype.

So excuses are made for Frost but Cates is a bottom six guy who shouldn't be playing center.

Sanheim gets a free ride despite a terrible season in a scheme that fits his skill set but Provorov gets trashed even though he's turned around his season since paired with York instead of TDA.

Gauthier is a horrible pick despite living up to expectations b/c he isn't Cooley, even though the only option that has played as well in his D+1 season is a big defenseman.

I'd blame development if the Flyers actually draft a top rated skill player and ruin him, but Frost was #27 for a reason, and we've seen it - he struggles to translate his combine speed to the ice - he's like the WR who runs a 4.3 but rounds off his cuts and struggles to high point balls.

TK has exceeded expectations, so did Farabee until his injury.

Provorov has been a bit of a disappointment, but he may simply be a kid who was physically mature at 18 and there was no upside to reach (which is what I'd worry about with Jiricek).

Sanheim is more of a disappointment b/c he did physical mature, he's improved defensively, but there's something missing, maybe his high center of gravity limits his agility, A smooth skater in open ice, he doesn't seem to make a lot of plays in the O-zone.

IF there is one thing this team lacks, it's the shifty, agile playmaker with great vision. Like G.
Get a couple guys like that, and I think the other offensive players would look much better.
Brink might be one. But they need more.

 

[Tripod]

Dead is right.

The Flyers had a top 3 prospect group by EVERY credible grading website/group/publication for MULTIPLE YEARS.

Everyone was wrong. Has nothing to do with the Flyers development of those top prospects groups. So what if they were rated great before the Flyers got their grubby hands on them. Everyone was wrong. The Flyers developed them just great.

Get a couple of Giroux's and others will look better. What a concept.

 

[deadhead]

If you look at those prospects, list all the ones who outperformed their draft slot in their D+1 and D+2 seasons, then went on to fail.

Myers (hard not to outperform UFA status). Same holds for Zamula and now Avon.
Frost, top CHL year, though he's finally performing up to draft status #27.
Patrick, but that was due to circumstances outside of team control.

That's about it. Most of these players were hyped b/c of their draft position, not their post-draft performance before the Flyers even got their hands on them.

 

[Tripod]

If you look at those prospects, list all the ones who outperformed their draft slot in their D+1 and D+2 seasons, then went on to fail.

Myers (hard not to outperform UFA status). Same holds for Zamula and now Avon.
Frost, top CHL year, though he's finally performing up to draft status #27.
Patrick, but that was due to circumstances outside of team control.

That's about it. Most of these players were hyped b/c of their draft position, not their post-draft performance before the Flyers even got their hands on them.

So you want to ignore how the Flyers even depth prospects were doing well enough in those seasons to be on WJC teams....or even play great at the WJC against age level peers, but we could not develop them even into even useful NHLers?

Cool.

You are right. Every publication was wrong. We developed them all to the best of the players ability.

 

[deadhead]

So you want to ignore how the Flyers even depth prospects were doing well enough in those seasons to be on WJC teams....or even play great at the WJC against age level peers, but we could not develop them even into even useful NHLers?

Cool.

You are right. Every publication was wrong. We developed them all to the best of the players ability.

Like whom?

WJC performances should be taken with a grain of salt, who did he play pad his stats against, what role did he have, what "team" did he make (Zanetti played for Switzerland, is he a top prospect?).

 

[freakydallas13]

No, you don't like prospects who don't fit the offense first prototype.

So excuses are made for Frost but Cates is a bottom six guy who shouldn't be playing center.

Sanheim gets a free ride despite a terrible season in a scheme that fits his skill set but Provorov gets trashed even though he's turned around his season since paired with York instead of TDA.

Gauthier is a horrible pick despite living up to expectations b/c he isn't Cooley, even though the only option that has played as well in his D+1 season is a big defenseman.

I'd blame development if the Flyers actually draft a top rated skill player and ruin him, but Frost was #27 for a reason, and we've seen it - he struggles to translate his combine speed to the ice - he's like the WR who runs a 4.3 but rounds off his cuts and struggles to high point balls.

TK has exceeded expectations, so did Farabee until his injury.

Provorov has been a bit of a disappointment, but he may simply be a kid who was physically mature at 18 and there was no upside to reach (which is what I'd worry about with Jiricek).

Sanheim is more of a disappointment b/c he did physical mature, he's improved defensively, but there's something missing, maybe his high center of gravity limits his agility, A smooth skater in open ice, he doesn't seem to make a lot of plays in the O-zone.

IF there is one thing this team lacks, it's the shifty, agile playmaker with great vision. Like G.
Get a couple guys like that, and I think the other offensive players would look much better.
Brink might be one. But they need more.

Why should we listen to you? You have no idea what this team is trying to accomplish, you said so yourself.

Nice straw man arguments btw. Please provide quotes of the majority of this board saying the things you claim they are saying, or stop spewing trash.

 

[deadhead]

Why should we listen to you? You have no idea what this team is trying to accomplish, you said so yourself.

Nice straw man arguments btw. Please provide quotes of the majority of this board saying the things you claim they are saying, or stop spewing trash.

Go look at the prospects polls on this board.
Then see how the prospects turned out.

 

[kudymen]

Please dont forget the Youtube comment sections.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Notice the excuses when a touted prospect fails to develop "it's the organization's fault" never the player, unless the hive decides they don't like a player (Provorov).

Sanheim is now playing for a HC who encourages his D-men to attack the O-zone (Torts has been pushing York to be MORE aggressive on offense). This should be the perfect scheme for Sanheim to wrack up points. He's always going to struggle in the D-zone b/c of lack of functional strength (high center of gravity, poor leverage), but should be compensating by being the team's best offensive defenseman.

Myers is a head case, big, strong fast, puts up good metrics (so much for metrics), but leaks goals. When Nashville gives up on you, and TB can't find PT for you despite your cap hit, it's the player.

Guys like Twarynski, Vorobyev, Bunnaman, NAK should have been solid 4th line guys if they lived up to their prospect rankings. NAK is on his 4th team, the others are buried in the AHL or KHL. I mean you don't need to be coached up that much to be a 4th line winger.

At some point you stop making excuses and admit these players just weren't very good.
Remember when people here whined they didn't sign Kalynuk, because he was fast and skilled?
You can go down the list, all those players who leave here to disappear.
No Sharpe or Seidenberg or Justin Williams in this group of prospects.

Do you enjoy being wrong? Is that it? Do you enjoy lying via strawman?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone take as many Ls as you have lately, or with such rapidity.

No, you don't like prospects who don't fit the offense first prototype.

So excuses are made for Frost but Cates is a bottom six guy who shouldn't be playing center.

Sanheim gets a free ride despite a terrible season in a scheme that fits his skill set but Provorov gets trashed even though he's turned around his season since paired with York instead of TDA.

Gauthier is a horrible pick despite living up to expectations b/c he isn't Cooley, even though the only option that has played as well in his D+1 season is a big defenseman.

I'd blame development if the Flyers actually draft a top rated skill player and ruin him, but Frost was #27 for a reason, and we've seen it - he struggles to translate his combine speed to the ice - he's like the WR who runs a 4.3 but rounds off his cuts and struggles to high point balls.

TK has exceeded expectations, so did Farabee until his injury.

Provorov has been a bit of a disappointment, but he may simply be a kid who was physically mature at 18 and there was no upside to reach (which is what I'd worry about with Jiricek).

Sanheim is more of a disappointment b/c he did physical mature, he's improved defensively, but there's something missing, maybe his high center of gravity limits his agility, A smooth skater in open ice, he doesn't seem to make a lot of plays in the O-zone.

IF there is one thing this team lacks, it's the shifty, agile playmaker with great vision. Like G.
Get a couple guys like that, and I think the other offensive players would look much better.
Brink might be one. But they need more.

Liar.

 

[Lindberg]

No, you don't like prospects who don't fit the offense first prototype.

Just out of curiosity. How many players ever develop offensive skills after being drafted?

It's much easier to get a player to learn the defensive side of the game. If you're going to the casino you don't gamble at the slot machine if you want to win.

 

[freakydallas13]

Go look at the prospects polls on this board.
Then see how the prospects turned out.

I'm not doing the leg work for you, they're your claims: prove them.

 

[deadhead]

Just out of curiosity. How many players ever develop offensive skills after being drafted?

It's much easier to get a player to learn the defensive side of the game. If you're going to the casino you don't gamble at the slot machine if you want to win.

To what extent? I mean you're not going to turn Cates into G.
But he came out of a very conservative Minn-Duluth system, so his skills were better than his stats indicated.
So you have to focus on skill more than lower level stats.

I agree with Torts, offense is instinctive, defense is taught.

But to teach defense, you also have to draft for intangibles, a lot of offensively oriented players bristle at being asked to play defense ("defense, I don't need no defense, I don't play no stinkin' defense . . ."). So you want players with work ethics and high compete levels (I'd rather win than pad my stats).

 

[deadhead]

I'm not doing the leg work for you, they're your claims: prove them.

2017 poll

1. Patrick, Nolan ~ C - 98% - injuries
2. Sanheim, Travis ~ LHD - 74%
3. Lindblom, Oskar ~ LW/RW - 64% - cancer
4. Myers, Phil ~ RHD - 80%
5. Rubtsov, German ~ C/W - 53%
6. Morin, Sam ~ LHD - 78%
7. Frost, Morgan ~ C/LW - 50%
8. Allison, Wade ~ RW - 35%
9. Hagg, Robert ~ LHD - 38%
10. Vorobyev, Mikhail ~ C - 51%
11. Ratcliffe, Isaac ~ LW - 51%
12. Laczynski, Tanner ~ C - 37%
13. Friedman, Mark ~ RHD - 42%
14. Laberge, Pascal ~ C/RW - 69% - injuries
15. Aube-Kubel, Nicolas ~ RW/LW - 38%
16. Bunnaman, Connor ~ C/LW - 41%
17. Hogberg, Linus ~ LHD - 33%
18. Strome, Matthew ~ LW - 44%
19. Kase, David ~ W/C - 33%
20. Vecchione, Mike ~ C - 42%
21. Cates, Noah ~ LW - 48%
22. Bernhardt, David ~ LHD - 52%
23. Leier, Taylor ~ LW - 42%
24. Marody, Cooper ~ C - 30%
25. Lycksell, Olle ~ C - 38%
26. Martel, Danick ~ LW/RW - 32%
27. Sushko, Maxim ~ RW - 52%


Amorosa, Terrance ~ LHD
Bardreau, Cole ~ C
Drake, David ~ LHD
Fazleev, Radel ~ C
Goulbourne, Tyrell ~ LW
Kalynuk, Wyatt ~ LHD
Salinitri, Anthony ~ C
Twarynski, Carson ~ LW
Warren, Brendan ~ LW
Willcox, Reece ~ RHD