2022/23 Roster Thread XIX: 19th Nervous Breakdown

[Striiker]

@JojoTheWhale this god damn quote

Braun:

"[Fletcher] said, 'I don't want you to be a mentor, I want you to be a player,' so that's important. I'm there to play, not just take care of guys.

Meanwhile, with Niskanen

Having played heavy minutes in all situations throughout his career, Matt will be a steadying influence to our talented and young group of defensemen."

"I think they have two or three young studs that are offensively talented, gifted, have good instincts, can move the puck well, assist in the offense," Niskanen said. "At this point in my career, in talking with [Fletcher], my job is going to be a good partner for someone.

 

[mja]

I just don't pile on like the rest of you, b/c I don't need your approval, so I don't suck up to the prevailing opinion.

In other words, you're nothing more than a contrarian who's deluding himself thinking he's the smartest guy in the room. But then, we already knew that.

I didn't think Fletcher did a good job, but people exaggerate the quality of the team he inherited b/c here it's all about 'heroes and villains', much like American politics these days. He was put in a tough spot, Holmgren mandated a "win now" approach, Fletcher did a good job that first off-season building a playoff team without giving up significant resources. Then the wheels fell off starting in the summer of 2021.

Fletcher made a bad situation worse, but he didn't create the mess. That took a decade.

You've been arguing for 4+ years now that Chuck did a good job. Before that you argued that Hextall was doing a good job. And Hakstol was a good coach, and then AV was a good coach, and now Torts is our lord and savior.

Heroes and villains? No, you just haven't figured out that people can indeed be bad at their jobs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Is this good?

Shayne Gostisbehere saga shows how Flyers make talent disappear

How the Flyers got nothing for one of Carolina’s top 4 defensemen.

www.broadstreethockey.com

Weird I'm told this doesn't happen, it's not a trend they repeat over and over, and it's all the players' fault. Despite it not happening.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Weird I'm told this doesn't happen, it's not a trend they repeat over and over, and it's all the players' fault. Despite it not happening.

weird i heard Ghost was a nothing burger and not even NHL level..

hahaaa... imagine having said that...

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

In other words, you're nothing more than a contrarian who's deluding himself thinking he's the smartest guy in the room. But then, we already knew that.

You've been arguing for 4+ years now that Chuck did a good job. Before that you argued that Hextall was doing a good job. And Hakstol was a good coach, and then AV was a good coach, and now Torts is our lord and savior.

Heroes and villains? No, you just haven't figured out that people can indeed be bad at their jobs.

 

[Striiker]

You've been arguing for 4+ years now that Chuck did a good job. Before that you argued that Hextall was doing a good job. And Hakstol was a good coach, and then AV was a good coach, and now Torts is our lord and savior.

Heroes and villains? No, you just haven't figured out that people can indeed be bad at their jobs.

It's crazy how bad this orgs luck must be to have three straight elite head coaches and a flawless GM but still be a disaster.

 

[deadhead]

Hayes was overpaid, so were Ghost, JVR and Voracek.
Pre-COVID contracts predicated on a rising cap.
The fact that none of these contracts were claimed in the ED (if they had positive value, they'd be claimed and flipped for assets) or on waivers says they were all bad contracts.

Braun was fine for a year, that's what he was brought in for, and got a 3rd back. Cheap "win now" move.
Niskanen was fine, then retired, best D-man we've had since Kimmo.

What Fletcher did in 2019 was what he was hired to do, by Holmgren, with specific instructions, signed off by the PTB - so if you didn't like those moves - the problem was the FO and their desire to "be competitive" and end the rebuild (which had been half-hearted in the first place).

Summer of 2021 and spring of 2022, that's on Fletcher.

In other words, you're nothing more than a contrarian who's deluding himself thinking he's the smartest guy in the room. But then, we already knew that.

You've been arguing for 4+ years now that Chuck did a good job. Before that you argued that Hextall was doing a good job. And Hakstol was a good coach, and then AV was a good coach, and now Torts is our lord and savior.

Heroes and villains? No, you just haven't figured out that people can indeed be bad at their jobs.

I overestimated Hextall b/c I listened to the "experts" on prospects on this board. Obvious mistake.

AV was a good coach for a season, then mailed it in when he saw the team wasn't good enough to go deep into the playoffs.
(funny thing, people obsess over Ghost, but AV's failure with Gustaffson was more costly, Wash turned him into a top 4 D-man and then flipped him for a 1st and Sandin, Ghost got a distant 3rd)

Hakstol was a good coach getting an 85-90 point team to the playoffs twice in four years, now he's turned around a mediocre expansion team and may get them into the playoffs. May not like his style, but he did more with less.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Voracek was paid coming off of a year in which he lead the scoring race until late in the season and was an excellent player in other seasons

Gostisbehere was signed to a perfectly reasonable 6 year deal at 24

JVR was paid more in AAV to drive the term down.

Kevin Hayes was acquired by giving a draft pick for the right to give him the world in both AAV and term after the one year in which he was anything more than a fine Middle 6 piece, justified by positional premium, and moved off of that position a few years later.

You can't put lipstick on this pig. It only makes you look foolish.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Hayes was overpaid, so were Ghost, JVR and Voracek.
Pre-COVID contracts predicated on a rising cap.
The fact that none of these contracts were claimed in the ED (if they had positive value, they'd be claimed and flipped for assets) or on waivers says they were all bad contracts.

Braun was fine for a year, that's what he was brought in for, and got a 3rd back. Cheap "win now" move.
Niskanen was fine, then retired, best D-man we've had since Kimmo.

What Fletcher did in 2019 was what he was hired to do, by Holmgren, with specific instructions, signed off by the PTB - so if you didn't like those moves - the problem was the FO and their desire to "be competitive" and end the rebuild (which had been half-hearted in the first place).

Summer of 2021 and spring of 2022, that's on Fletcher.


I overestimated Hextall b/c I listened to the "experts" on prospects on this board. Obvious mistake.

AV was a good coach for a season, then mailed it in when he saw the team wasn't good enough to go deep into the playoffs.
(funny thing, people obsess over Ghost, but AV's failure with Gustaffson was more costly, Wash turned him into a top 4 D-man and then flipped him for a 1st and Sandin, Ghost got a distant 3rd)

Hakstol was a good coach getting an 85-90 point team to the playoffs twice in four years, now he's turned around a mediocre expansion team and may get them into the playoffs. May not like his style, but he did more with less.

I must say I do enjoy when you try and act like the others on the board are the ones that overrated prospects. We're not the ones that insert prospects into the lineup EVERY single year while being told "not going to happen."

 

[deadhead]

Voracek was paid coming off of a year in which he lead the scoring race until late in the season and was an excellent player in other seasons

Gostisbehere was signed to a perfectly reasonable 6 year deal at 24

JVR was paid more in AAV to drive the term down.

Kevin Hayes was acquired by giving a draft pick for the right to give him the world in both AAV and term after the one year in which he was anything more than a fine Middle 6 piece, justified by positional premium, and moved off of that position a few years later.

You can't put lipstick on this pig. It only makes you look foolish.

Voracek was signed to a 8yr/$8.25M in the summer of 2015, with the extension starting in 2016-17, Contract ran from age 27-34. The two years before signing his extension he scored 1.93 and 2.13 pp/60 at 5x5. His peak season was at 22 years old. Bounced back for two years when he was paired with G and Couts at age 29-30, scoring 2.38 and 2.36 pp/60.

Hayes scored 1.96 and 2.28 pp/60 at 5x5 the two seasons before the Flyers signed him from age 27-33.

Voracek was strictly a RW, top PP1 performer, but didn't PK.
Hayes was a center, top PK performer, PP2, but PP1 the year before he signed.

You can't claim the Voracek contract, starting 3 years before Hayes, with a significantly lower cap ($73 M v $81.5M, 11.3% of cap v 8.7%), was a good deal while Hayes was an awful mistake.

 

[TB87]

Therien said on the latest snow the goalie podcast (I’m paraphrasing mind you): “If Giroux was such a good player why didn’t the team make more deep playoff runs with him as their star player? Other teams stars willed their teams to playoff success!”


It’s wild how often former NHLers have no understanding of the importance of roster depth and roster construction. This isn’t some high level concept to understand lol.

 

[Magua]

Therien said on the latest snow the goalie podcast (I’m paraphrasing mind you): “If Giroux was such a good player why didn’t the team make more deep playoff runs with him as their star player? Other teams stars willed their teams to playoff success!”


It’s wild how often former NHLers have no understanding of the importance of roster depth and roster construction. This isn’t some high level concept to understand lol.

I listened to 15 minutes. Therien got upset that Homer laughed at him, saying he had no qualifications, after Therien seriously suggested he be considered for the last GM search.

He was also going on a HockeyGuy rant, complaining about the organization needing guys who played the game. That’s when I shut it off.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Voracek was signed to a 8yr/$8.25M in the summer of 2015, with the extension starting in 2016-17, Contract ran from age 27-34. The two years before signing his extension he scored 1.93 and 2.13 pp/60 at 5x5. His peak season was at 22 years old. Bounced back for two years when he was paired with G and Couts at age 29-30, scoring 2.38 and 2.36 pp/60.

Hayes scored 1.96 and 2.28 pp/60 at 5x5 the two seasons before the Flyers signed him from age 27-33.

Voracek was strictly a RW, top PP1 performer, but didn't PK.
Hayes was a center, top PK performer, PP2, but PP1 the year before he signed.

You can't claim the Voracek contract, starting 3 years before Hayes, with a significantly lower cap ($73 M v $81.5M, 11.3% of cap v 8.7%), was a good deal while Hayes was an awful mistake.

I can and I will because I care about what actually happened, not dividing it up to make it fit. You do this thing where you throw out PP numbers or Secondary Assists for top Forwards whenever it suits your needs.

Like I said, Voracek signed his deal on July 30th, 2015. He had just damn near lead the NHL in Scoring. We can argue about whether they should have considered trying to move on rather than give him the mega deal, but what we absolutely cannot do is comp that year to Kevin f***ing Hayes putting up 55 Points in a career year for two other teams and then falling on his face in the playoffs and expect to be taken seriously. How many Primary Assists he had on Tuesdays when the wind was blowing directly up my ass will not convince me of anything.

Tell me you had a problem with them both and I won't argue. But the degree of difficulty involved in walking away from a Voracek who looked like one of the premier playmaker in hockey for a season on your own team versus Kevin Hayes' career year that fell apart once he left the Rangers cannot be treated the same or you will be laughed at. And deserve it.

If you go back to the time of the signing, I said Hayes was probably a top 20 Forward the previous season. The chasm between Hayes' career year and being one of the actual premier players in a league is the single hardest spans to jump in the sport. Almost no one gets there.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I listened to 15 minutes. Therien got upset that Homer laughed at him, saying he had no qualifications, after Therien seriously suggested he be considered for the last GM search.

He was also going on a HockeyGuy rant, complaining about the organization needing guys who played the game. That’s when I shut it off.

He’s been going rants the last two weeks about how you can’t play JvR on your third or fourth line. I’m sure in Therien’s era coaches were regularly matching those lines up against other team’s top lines unbeknownst to them not knowing how counterintuitive it was. But that’s the not the case anymore. Even the worst coaches in the league know they cannot go to the well too many times without seriously getting burned. Your third & fourth lines primarily are playing the other teams third & fourth lines. So the goal is to build a line with that mindset. The organizations that abandoned these type of mindsets are usually the best in the league, the others are the Flyers.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

I listened to 15 minutes. Therien got upset that Homer laughed at him, saying he had no qualifications, after Therien seriously suggested he be considered for the last GM search.

He was also going on a HockeyGuy rant, complaining about the organization needing guys who played the game. That’s when I shut it off.

I like STG, but man that was a rough episode.

 

[deadhead]

It's both, you need roster depth, but your top players have to produce in the playoffs.
2017-18 and 2019-20 (minus the 3 "practice" games):

Couts 17g 7-9 16
G 19g 2-9 12
Voracek 19g 4-7 11
TK 19g 1-5 6
Laughton 18g 3-2 5
Raffl 14g 3-1 4

Just 2019-20:
Hayes 13g 4-5 9
Farabee 10g 2-1 3
JVR 10g 2-0 2
Myers 13g 2-1 3
Braun 13 g 0-2 2
Niskanen 12g 1-1 2

Provorov 19g 3-7 10
Sanheim 17g 1-5 6
Hagg 12g 0-3 3
Ghost 10g 1-0 1

 

[Lindberg]

Therien said on the latest snow the goalie podcast (I’m paraphrasing mind you): “If Giroux was such a good player why didn’t the team make more deep playoff runs with him as their star player? Other teams stars willed their teams to playoff success!”


It’s wild how often former NHLers have no understanding of the importance of roster depth and roster construction. This isn’t some high level concept to understand lol.

That's some strange cognitive dissonance.

Gretzky didn't even take the Kings on a deep cup run but once.

 

[Magua]

Voracek was strictly a RW, top PP1 performer, but didn't PK.

That's not fair -- Voracek had 3 minutes on the PK in his contract year. Which is only 7 minutes less on the PK than Hayes this season.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Also for people getting mad at the trade app thing referenced by Chuck last week - they've been using this thing

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

That's some strange cognitive dissonance.

Gretzky didn't even take the Kings on a deep cup run but once.

Michael Jordan never took the Wizards on a deep playoff run.

Come to think of it, neither did Bobby Clarke take another team on a deep playoff run.

Maybe they are the same.

 

[Lindberg]

Michael Jordan never took the Wizards on a deep playoff run.

Come to think of it, neither did Bobby Clarke take another team on a deep playoff run.

Maybe they are the same.

Are former players this brainwashed to assume that the key to winning is a star player?

Step 1: Pass Puck to Giroux
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit

 

[deadhead]

I can and I will because I care about what actually happened, not dividing it up to make it fit. You do this thing where you throw out PP numbers or Secondary Assists for top Forwards whenever it suits your needs.

Like I said, Voracek signed his deal on July 30th, 2015. He had just damn near lead the NHL in Scoring. We can argue about whether they should have considered trying to move on rather than give him the mega deal, but what we absolutely cannot do is comp that year to Kevin f***ing Hayes putting up 55 Points in a career year for two other teams and then falling on his face in the playoffs and expect to be taken seriously. How many Primary Assists he had on Tuesdays when the wind was blowing directly up my ass will not convince me of anything.

Tell me you had a problem with them both and I won't argue. But the degree of difficulty involved in walking away from a Voracek who looked like one of the premier playmaker in hockey for a season on your own team versus Kevin Hayes' career year that fell apart once he left the Rangers cannot be treated the same or you will be laughed at. And deserve it.

If you go back to the time of the signing, I said Hayes was probably a top 20 Forward the previous season. The chasm between betting on that career year and being one of the actual premier players in a league is the single hardest spans to jump in the sport. Almost no one gets there.

I had problems with both, the contracts are significantly different when you account for % of cap, 11.3% v 8.7% . Voracek's contract was 30% higher as a % of the cap - so if Hayes is $7.1M, Voracek was effectively $9.2M. Relative to their talent, that's a fair gap.

Both were overpriced relative to skill, both contracts were predicated on the cap rising $4M a year or so, both were also driven by the desire to be competitive. So instead of trading Voracek at his peak as part of a rebuild, he was overpaid as part of the core. Hayes was overpaid b/c Patrick was damaged goods and Holmgren insisted on a "win now" strategy (Flyers had few real assets other than 1st rd picks to trade, those vaunted prospects had either failed to perform post-draft, Rubtsov et al., or were already key players on the team by summer of 2018).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

1a. Well, maybe he might be merely very good instead one of the best players in the whole league again.

1b. Nolan Patrick busted. Please take my money even if you're likely to get back to being a solid middle 6 piece.

Nope. Not even entertaining this in the same breath.

 

[deadhead]

Also for people getting mad at the trade app thing referenced by Chuck last week - they've been using this thing

Well, nothing wrong with the calculation, just the valuation of TDA.
This is about what Hextall paid to move up to #35 to take Ratcliffe.

 

[Striiker]

Comcast is shitting their pants right now. Hope things don’t get too crazy with all those people or we could see a riot.