2022/23 Roster Thread XIV: Season's Beatings

[freakydallas13]

Why is Torts lobbying for a rebuild, hasn't the narrative been that they have been rebuilding since the offseason already?

Pretty odd he's publicly pushing for something that is already happening.

 

[FlyRoutine]

What would be a sign mid-season? Force feeding prospects? Benching high salaried veterans and ruining any prospect of dumping them without giving away assets?

Actions that promote rebuilding should be long-term in nature, contributing to the team 3-5 years from now, not placating fans' desire to "do something, anything." There is no evidence that the AHL hurts player development, many top prospects on other teams have spend a year or so in the AHL without harm.

And there is a critical mass of "inexperience" beyond which playing more young players may hurt development as the "blind leading the blind" results in numerous mistakes and player frustration. It is smarter to build structure with veterans, then gradually work in prospects over a couple years, sheltering them until they're ready for a heavier workload.

I agree with that to keep some veterans to lead the younger unexperienced players. Giroux would have been that type of veteran, but they let him leave to be signed for 6,5x3 in Ottawa. Instead we got dead weight like Ristolainen and Deslaurier.
Thats just bad asset management and the Flyers management is to blame for that.

 

[flyers0909]

You still ascribe to the myth that rebuilds start by stripping a team of every veteran and starting a bunch of kids.
Except no one actually does that.

Anaheim: Henrique (32), Strome (29), Fowler (31), Kulikov (32), Klingberg (30), Shattenkirk (34), Silfverberg (32), Grant (32), Beaulieu (30), Carrick (30)

Chicago: Kane (34), Toews (34), McCabe (29), T Johnson (32), J Johnson (36), Murphy (29), Blackwell (29), Mrazek (30)

Even Arizona, where the youth movement is more a matter of frugality than rebuilding:
Ghost (29), Bjugstad (30), Boyd (29), Brown (29), Nemeth (30), Kassain (32)

Lmao look at the cap situations and picks the next 3 years of those 3 teams vs. us.

This might be off by a pick or so just bc I'm too lazy to look up all the conditions but Anaheim has 13 picks in the first 3 rounds the next 3 seasons, Chicago has 15, Arizona has 18, we have 9. They're all also bottom 4 in cap spent while we are right up against the cap.

 

[deadhead]

Lmao look at the cap situations and picks the next 3 years of those 3 teams vs. us.

This might be off by a pick or so just bc I'm too lazy to look up all the conditions but Anaheim has 13 picks in the first 3 rounds the next 3 seasons, Chicago has 15, Arizona has 18, we have 9. They're all also bottom 4 in cap spent while we are right up against the cap.

They've also been rebuilding for a while.

Chicago, 1 PO in 5 years
Arizona, 1 PO in 10 years
Ottawa, 0 PO last 5 years
Anaheim, 0 PO last 4 years
San Jose, 0 PO last 3 years
Vancouver, 1 PO last 7 years

 

[DancingPanther]

Can we not argue with deadhead on Little Richard's birthday

 

[Striiker]

What does "balance winning now" even mean?

It means he thinks playing well and playing skilled youth are mutually exclusive.

 

[freakydallas13]

Have the Flyers been rebuilding for a while? 1 PO in 4 years.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

What if I told you that the Flyers are heading towards 1 PO in 5 years?

What happened before that time period you chose for the Blackhawks? Three Stanley Cups, two Conference Finals, and four first round exits.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Coyotes? A Conference Final.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Senators? A Conference Final.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Ducks? Two Conference Finals and two first round exits (and others).
What happened before that time period you chose for the Sharks? A SCF, a Conference Final, a second round appearance, and a first round exit.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Canucks? Meh.

So what i'm trying to say is... nice cherry picking. They all had much more success than the Flyers have had and yet they're ahead of the Flyers in rebuilding.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

What does "balance winning now" even mean?

wouldnt you actualy have to be winning for that to be a factor ?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nothing says "rebuilding" like planning on winning now.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

They're all also bottom 4 in cap spent while we are right up against the cap.

that is great management i hear..

GG Flutch

 

[FlyRoutine]

Have the Flyers been rebuilding for a while? 1 PO in 4 years.

The Flyers are in some kind of retool since the Richards and Schenn trade and they failed with that. Thats the reason why we are still a non factor in this league. To good to draft some impact player and to bad to be a serious threat at the playoffs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What if I told you that the Flyers are heading towards 1 PO in 5 years?

What happened before that time period you chose for the Blackhawks? Three Stanley Cups, two Conference Finals, and four first round exits.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Coyotes? A Conference Final.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Senators? A Conference Final.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Ducks? Two Conference Finals and two first round exits (and others).
What happened before that time period you chose for the Sharks? A SCF, a Conference Final, a second round appearance, and a first round exit.
What happened before that time period you chose for the Canucks? Meh.

So what i'm trying to say is... nice cherry picking. They all had much more success than the Flyers have had and yet they're ahead of the Flyers in rebuilding.

Can you remind me of what Fletcher's teams did in that span? How about going back to 2009?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Can you remind me of what Fletcher's teams did in that span? How about going back to 2009?

Do I have to?

 

[BernieParent]

"Captain Smith said he wants to get all of the Titanic's passengers safely into lifeboats, but also wants to balance preparing the ballroom for tomorrow evening's gala."

 

[Striiker]

Hextall made the playoffs every other year while rebuilding.

Fletchers only made the playoffs once while desperately trying to compete and they got horribly embarrassed.

 

[deadhead]

That was why Hextall screwed up the rebuild. Should have built on his 2014 trades.
They missed three opportunities, after the Carter/Richards trades, after the Coburn/Kimmo trades and 2018.
Now who insisted they never rebuild, Holmgren/Clarke.

Fletcher is a symptom, not the disease.

 

[flyersnorth]

That was why Hextall screwed up the rebuild. Should have built on his 2014 trades.
They missed three opportunities, after the Carter/Richards trades, after the Coburn/Kimmo trades and 2018.
Now who insisted they never rebuild, Holmgren/Clarke.

Fletcher is a symptom, not the disease.

Do you believe Fletcher is a great GM hindered only by those above him? That in the absence of those voices, he would be very well capable of building a contender?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

That was why Hextall screwed up the rebuild. Should have built on his 2014 trades.
They missed three opportunities, after the Carter/Richards trades, after the Coburn/Kimmo trades and 2018.
Now who insisted they never rebuild, Holmgren/Clarke.

Fletcher is a symptom, not the disease.

Yeah, we know, we just don’t write paragraphs absolving him of any and all blame at every turn.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That was why Hextall screwed up the rebuild. Should have built on his 2014 trades.
They missed three opportunities, after the Carter/Richards trades, after the Coburn/Kimmo trades and 2018.
Now who insisted they never rebuild, Holmgren/Clarke.

Fletcher is a symptom, not the disease.

Fletcher is very much the disease. Remove the advisors, and he's still wretched. That's all he has ever been. The problem is that there are other diseases who will see to it that they hire someone else as bad as him.

 

[deadhead]

I don't absolve him of blame, I just don't think he was the prime mover for the collapse of this franchise.
Nor do I think another GM would have made much of a difference as long as he was expected to win now with this talent base (starting in 2018).

He could have done a better job, but he still wasn't going to turn Bunnaman into a 2C or trade Voracek for anything more than another bad contract. Nor would anyone get much more for Giroux, because no one has (34 year old rental forward who was good, not elite).

To me, Hayes is about the same value as JVR, both can score, both are limited, both are overpaid, except when Hayes was signed the cap was expected to be a big higher (pre-COVID). Both reflected the delusion that this team was on the cusp of the top 8.

The Risto/Ghost sequence was his one bad mistake, the other moves were just shuffling pieces around.

So to me Fletcher is less important than Scott and the advisors, because replace him with Briere or an outside GM and tell them you want an aggressive reload and you'll have a new set of mistakes driven by attempting the impossible.

And that's why I'm so thankful they hired Torts, b/c by making it clear this team isn't close to being competitive, it makes it hard to sell an "aggressive reload" to the media, and hopefully the Comcast brass as well.

 

[ajgoal]

Fletcher is very much the disease. Remove the advisors, and he's still wretched. That's all he has ever been. The problem is that there are other diseases who will see to it that they hire someone else as bad as him.

Also, even if the disease is incurable, you still try to eliminate the symptoms.

 

[freakydallas13]

The Ghost/Fisto situation was three seperate mistakes (paying to get rid of ghost, paying that much for Fisto, and resigning Fisto), but sure. Keep hand waving that as the lone mistake Fletcher has made.

Edit: weren't we told for years that trading Ghost and bringing in Risto were not related to each other?

Interesting you are able to lump them together for the sake of "Fletcher's lone mistake" though.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I don't absolve him of blame, I just don't think he was the prime mover for the collapse of this franchise.
Nor do I think another GM would have made much of a difference as long as he was expected to win now with this talent base (starting in 2018).

He could have done a better job, but he still wasn't going to turn Bunnaman into a 2C or trade Voracek for anything more than another bad contract. Nor would anyone get much more for Giroux, because no one has (34 year old rental forward who was good, not elite).

To me, Hayes is about the same value as JVR, both can score, both are limited, both are overpaid, except when Hayes was signed the cap was expected to be a big higher (pre-COVID). Both reflected the delusion that this team was on the cusp of the top 8.

The Risto/Ghost sequence was his one bad mistake, the other moves were just shuffling pieces around.

So to me Fletcher is less important than Scott and the advisors, because replace him with Briere or an outside GM and tell them you want an aggressive reload and you'll have a new set of mistakes driven by attempting the impossible.

And that's why I'm so thankful they hired Torts, b/c by making it clear this team isn't close to being competitive, it makes it hard to sell an "aggressive reload" to the media, and hopefully the Comcast brass as well.

That's a total lie right there. It is well documented Giroux would've gone anywhere had Fletcher just promised him he'd bring him back this year. That means Giroux's value when traded is even higher. And there was no good reason to not give him that promise, or actually bring him back just to make fans happy during this miserable next 2 years.

And just to be clear: Fletcher traded Jake for what *he* could trade him for, not what a good GM likely could trade him for. Fletch traded assets out the butt to get Risto, who is a bad defenseman. Do you think every GM would've done that and Fletch was in a no-win situation?

I can't believe you admitted to Ghost/Risto being a bad mistake. A month ago, you said it wasn't a big deal at all.

Fletcher is very much a problem. He's doing exactly what he did in Minnesota, so I'm not just going to blame Scott or his advisors.

 

[Magua]

The Ghost/Fisto situation was three seperate mistakes (paying to get rid of ghost, paying that much for Fisto, and resigning Fisto), but sure. Keep hand waving that as the lone mistake Fletcher has made.

Edit: weren't we told for years that trading Ghost and bringing in Risto were not related to each other?

Interesting you are able to lump them together for the sake of "Fletcher's lone mistake" though.

4, if you want to add in the Chiarelli-like needing to add an offensive defenseman for picks because you have a hole after trading away your former offensive defenseman to get a better “fit.”

Someone should compile every f*** up so we can just copy and paste.