2022/23 Roster Thread XIV: Season's Beatings

[Striiker]

The absolute worst possible thing that could happen would be Fletcher making another trade before he’s gone.

Signing Sanheim didn’t lose us anything of value because he’s not capable of getting value in trades. We’d have just lost him for nothing of value, same as the Giroux trade.

 

[BernieParent]

Is there a single Flyers asset that has increased in value since Fletcher took over?

Gritty

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

The absolute worst possible thing that could happen would be Fletcher making another trade before he’s gone.

Signing Sanheim didn’t lose us anything of value because he’s not capable of getting value in trades. We’d have just lost him for nothing of value, same as the Giroux trade.

Honestly even conceding that it still probably would have been worth it to not have Sanheim’s contract on the books long term given the rest of this roster & where it’s headed.

The Flyers really don’t understand the age curve or how to build an efficient roster with a salary cap. They keep re-signing these players like they’re making another run at the cup opposed to making a run at the #1 overall pick.

Of course this is all the assumption they have someone competent in place going forward which is a hell of an assumption. But having more contract flexibility going forward could honestly be more important than an asset return to a competent person going forward.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

It's a series of events following the ellis deal. That's exacerbated our lack of center depth and created a lack of size on defense. They moved ghost to make room for risto and then with injuries you have assets and money tied up in a celebrated deal that didn't work. The inability to see the flaws in the deals you like is fletchers biggest problem and it's a pretty common one on these boards. We're facing many of the same issues we had three years ago and have lees hope of changing them. People want to bag on the tda move but the biggest screw up this year was renewing sanheim. So if you aren't going to start there maybe a little less sarcasm

No that just excuses for his failures!

 

[deadhead]

Thanks for proving my point. Use a statement that I didn't make and then celebrate hanging on to the one expiring contract that would have garnered value at the deadline. Please continue to complain about why the flyers don't have any high end talent

What are the odds Sanheim would bring us a player (draft picks) close to his value over the next 8 years? He'd probably have garnered a 1st (in the 20s), 2nd and "B" prospect, slightly more than Giroux b/c of his age and the potential to resign him.

He's still developing as a player and has top offensive D-man potential (will always struggle in the D-zone to some extent b/c he has a high center of gravity and struggles along the boards). Those guys aren't easy to find.

I can't see how anyone reasonable can complain about the TK, Farabee or Sanheim contracts.

Provorov was pre-COVID and is probably a $1M above his value, similar to most pre-COVID deals. It was inflated by eating 3 FA seasons, where at the time the expectation was probably $8+M a year with a rising cap.

If they let TDA walk, Flyers are projected with $27M in 2024-25 with few expensive extensions on the horizon.
So they can take a veteran contract/eat a little money if they want to move Provorov, wouldn't take much with 2yr/$6.75M.
But that cushion means they can eat money on Hayes and Atkinson if they want to move on.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What are the odds Sanheim would bring us a player (draft picks) close to his value over the next 8 years? He'd probably have garnered a 1st (in the 20s), 2nd and "B" prospect, slightly more than Giroux b/c of his age and the potential to resign him.

He's still developing as a player and has top offensive D-man potential (will always struggle in the D-zone to some extent b/c he has a high center of gravity and struggles along the boards). Those guys aren't easy to find.

I can't see how anyone reasonable can complain about the TK, Farabee or Sanheim contracts.

Provorov was pre-COVID and is probably a $1M above his value, similar to most pre-COVID deals. It was inflated by eating 3 FA seasons, where at the time the expectation was probably $8+M a year with a rising cap.

If they let TDA walk, Flyers are projected with $27M in 2024-25 with few expensive extensions on the horizon.
So they can take a veteran contract/eat a little money if they want to move Provorov, wouldn't take much with 2yr/$6.75M.
But that cushion means they can eat money on Hayes and Atkinson if they want to move on.

A good GM could have leveraged Sanheim into significant value. We don't have one of those, though. Guy couldn't even sell Giroux successfully.

 

[flyers0909]

If there's anything I'm confident in, it's Chuck Fletcher having a cap cushion.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

If there's anything I'm confident in, it's Chuck Fletcher having a cap cushion.

Me neither. I assume he’s gone though soon. But unfortunately I have no faith in his replacement at this rate either. But I was just saying in theory not having another long term UFA deal on the books could prove to be more useful than whatever trade return long term to someone that actually knows what they’re doing. Obviously the hiring someone competent is a huge if with this organization at this rate.

I like Sanheim & think/thought he’s better than some around the team give him credit for. But in reality even with all that said given this current roster & the likely time frame it would require to get talent in here going forward. What are the odds Sanheim’s level of play at that point makes his contract unnecessary at best which is often the case with big long term UFA deals?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Desnoyers was used in junior, similar to N Cates in college, as a jack of all trades player who worked his way into a 1st line role. And back in that defense first role at the WJC.
He may end up as a 1C in the AHL, but let him work his way there, same way Wisdom is working his way up the ladder.

Anisimov has shown he's an offensive player at the AHL level, same way Sedlak was a 1C in the KHL - doesn't mean the could fill those roles at the NHL level, but for Foerster and Lycksell, it helps to have a veteran center while they learn on the job.

A problem for most prospects has been lost time the last two seasons, Desnoyers only played 37 games in 2020-21, Wisdom 28 AHL and 54 OHL games over two seasons, Foerster 33 AHL, 19 OHL and 7 WJC games over two seasons.

Given this is a lost season at the NHL level, good reason NOT to rush younger prospects to the NHL. We have a bunch of older prospects who need to get cameos to judge whether they're worth keeping as depth. Allison and Laczynski will return at some point, Lycksell needs to see NHL time, York, Zamula and Attard, and even Ginning (250 SHL games means he doesn't need a lot of AHL seasoning).

And yet those older prospects had vets signed in front of them too. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. There’s never enough room because they never create it.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

“I don’t absolve Chuck Fletcher of blame, now watch as I absolve Chuck Fletcher of blame.”

X2

 

[Beef Invictus]

And yet those older prospects had vets signed in front of them too. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. There’s never enough room because they never create it.

It's almost like these trends have been in place for a very long time, hence the annoyance with them

 

[FLYguy3911]

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Laughton, a bit piece, for a ~1st round pick and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Ristolainen, a historically bad defenseman, for a ~1st round pick after giving up a slew of valuable picks, and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher gave Provorov a 6 year deal off of an awful season, firmly entrenching him as the 1D for years to come.

Fletcher gave Farabee a 5 year deal two years into his ELC because he had a high SH%.

Fletcher gave Carter Hart a 3 year deal coming off of an awful season so he had little leverage at the end of it.

Other poor or foolish moves made by the GM shouldn't influence your thought process towards keeping the actively good players on the roster. Whether you are rebuilding or not, you should be trying to acquire and keep good players, because if you make other smart moves along the way (Fletcher has not and will not) it really doesn't take much to be competitive again in a league where more than half of the teams make the playoffs and weird shit happens in them. You should want to re-sign a 1C in Couturier because they are hard to find. You should want to re-sign an athletic 6'4 defenseman with smarts and skill who stays healthy and consistently drives play and scores at ES (with a chance for more!) because they are hard to find.

The thing about criticizing the Sanheim extension because it happened to come when the team is terrible (who could have seen that coming with some of the moves above) is Sanheim wouldn't have even been an expiring contract if Fletcher didn't completely botch his RFA years.

With a Sanheim trade you were looking at probably a first round pick. The team openly admitted to giving up a collections of picks for TDA that amounted up to a pick in the 30s. It would have essentially been a wash in value if you trade Sanheim and bring in TDA. And that assumes Fletcher doesn't completely fumble the trade! And I know which one I'd rather have now and in the future.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Laughton, a bit piece, for a ~1st round pick and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Ristolainen, a historically bad defenseman, for a ~1st round pick after giving up a slew of valuable picks, and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher gave Provorov a 6 year deal off of an awful season, firmly entrenching him as the 1D for years to come.

Fletcher gave Farabee a 5 year deal two years into his ELC because he had a high SH%.

Fletcher gave Carter Hart a 3 year deal coming off of an awful season so he had little leverage at the end of it.

Other poor or foolish moves made by the GM shouldn't influence your thought process towards keeping the actively good players on the roster. Whether you are rebuilding or not, you should be trying to acquire and keep good players, because if you make other smart moves along the way (Fletcher has not and will not) it really doesn't take much to be competitive again in a league where more than half of the teams make the playoffs and weird shit happens in them. You should want to re-sign a 1C in Couturier because they are hard to find. You should want to re-sign an athletic 6'4 defenseman with smarts and skill who stays healthy and consistently drives play and scores at ES (with a chance for more!) because they are hard to find.

The thing about criticizing the Sanheim extension because it happened to come when the team is terrible (who could have seen that coming with some of the moves above) is Sanheim wouldn't have even been an expiring contract if Fletcher didn't completely botch his RFA years.

With a Sanheim trade you were looking at probably a first round pick. The team openly admitted to giving up a collections of picks for TDA that amounted up to a pick in the 30s. It would have essentially been a wash in value if you trade Sanheim and bring in TDA. And that assumes Fletcher doesn't completely fumble the trade!

Don’t forget Phil Myers. The man that “nobody wanted because he was bleeding goals in the playoffs” got a $2.55M AAV deal right after from Chuck.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Don’t forget Phil Myers. The man that “nobody wanted because he was bleeding goals in the playoffs” got a $2.55M AAV deal right after from Chuck.

Lindblom too. Another 3 year RFA deal coming off of his ELC where he ended up buying out the last year. I was actually OK with this one because he was playing at a high level prior to the cancer diagnosis and it seemed like a good gesture, but this man gave out 3 year RFA deals like candy because he has no clue how to get value out of anything.

 

[Starat327]

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Laughton, a bit piece, for a ~1st round pick and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Ristolainen, a historically bad defenseman, for a ~1st round pick after giving up a slew of valuable picks, and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher gave Provorov a 6 year deal off of an awful season, firmly entrenching him as the 1D for years to come.

Fletcher gave Farabee a 5 year deal two years into his ELC because he had a high SH%.

Fletcher gave Carter Hart a 3 year deal coming off of an awful season so he had little leverage at the end of it.

Other poor or foolish moves made by the GM shouldn't influence your thought process towards keeping the actively good players on the roster. Whether you are rebuilding or not, you should be trying to acquire and keep good players, because if you make other smart moves along the way (Fletcher has not and will not) it really doesn't take much to be competitive again in a league where more than half of the teams make the playoffs and weird shit happens in them. You should want to re-sign a 1C in Couturier because they are hard to find. You should want to re-sign an athletic 6'4 defenseman with smarts and skill who stays healthy and consistently drives play and scores at ES (with a chance for more!) because they are hard to find.

The thing about criticizing the Sanheim extension because it happened to come when the team is terrible (who could have seen that coming with some of the moves above) is Sanheim wouldn't have even been an expiring contract if Fletcher didn't completely botch his RFA years.

With a Sanheim trade you were looking at probably a first round pick. The team openly admitted to giving up a collections of picks for TDA that amounted up to a pick in the 30s. It would have essentially been a wash in value if you trade Sanheim and bring in TDA. And that assumes Fletcher doesn't completely fumble the trade! And I know which one I'd rather have now and in the future.

Oh great here comes thr NHL2K24 Be A GM mode criticizing an ACTUAL NHL GM with a Harvard degree to boot. Forgive me but if I need a dentist...

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Gritty

Gritty

Great minds!

 

[FLYguy3911]

Oh great here comes thr NHL2K24 Be A GM mode criticizing an ACTUAL NHL GM with a Harvard degree to boot. Forgive me but if I need a dentist...

Shouldn't you be busy being a dad or something?

 

[Starat327]

Shouldn't you be busy being a dad or something?

Multi-tasking, bruv.

Also, for whoever suggested it, my FIL brought be a Lawsons Super Session last night to have with dinner. I think that's craft beer, but not entirely sure.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Multi-tasking, bruv.View attachment 619970

Also, for whoever suggested it, my FIL brought be a Lawsons Super Session last night to have with dinner. I think that's craft beer, but not entirely sure.

Have you ever seen the sun?

 

[Starat327]

Have you ever seen the sun?

You act like this is shocking to you.

You know it tells me how many times you play the OnlyHands video, right?

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Multi-tasking, bruv.View attachment 619970

Also, for whoever suggested it, my FIL brought be a Lawsons Super Session last night to have with dinner. I think that's craft beer, but not entirely sure.

Aww little peanut! As for the craft beer thing, there is a guy here who can help clear that up for you. Just make some ghost posts, and he will come.

 

[Striiker]

Multi-tasking, bruv.View attachment 619970

Also, for whoever suggested it, my FIL brought be a Lawsons Super Session last night to have with dinner. I think that's craft beer, but not entirely sure.

I can see your social security card in the reflection of the window

 

[deadhead]

A good GM could have leveraged Sanheim into significant value. We don't have one of those, though. Guy couldn't even sell Giroux successfully.

You live in fantasy land. There's general parameters that govern trades (comparables).

Sanheim would not garner you anything close to Seth Jones, for example, he's been a second pair D-man, never among the league leaders in scoring, some obvious defensive limitations.

He would get you value, but nothing close to the upside of a 26 year old on a $6M contract for a rebuilding team - since D-men tend to retain close to full value until 32, he's a good anchor player.

Lindholm got a 2022 1st, 2023 2nd, 2024 2nd and Vaakanainen (#18 2017 but pretty much a flop when he was traded).
Skjei got a 1st rd pick.
So 2023 1st, 2024 2nd and one other asset would probably be the best you could have gotten for Sanheim at the TDL.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Open the blinds ^^^

 

[deadhead]

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Laughton, a bit piece, for a ~1st round pick and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher had a chance to cash out Ristolainen, a historically bad defenseman, for a ~1st round pick after giving up a slew of valuable picks, and possibly re-sign him in the offseason. He gave him a 5 year deal.

Fletcher gave Provorov a 6 year deal off of an awful season, firmly entrenching him as the 1D for years to come.

Fletcher gave Farabee a 5 year deal two years into his ELC because he had a high SH%.

Fletcher gave Carter Hart a 3 year deal coming off of an awful season so he had little leverage at the end of it.

Other poor or foolish moves made by the GM shouldn't influence your thought process towards keeping the actively good players on the roster. Whether you are rebuilding or not, you should be trying to acquire and keep good players, because if you make other smart moves along the way (Fletcher has not and will not) it really doesn't take much to be competitive again in a league where more than half of the teams make the playoffs and weird shit happens in them. You should want to re-sign a 1C in Couturier because they are hard to find. You should want to re-sign an athletic 6'4 defenseman with smarts and skill who stays healthy and consistently drives play and scores at ES (with a chance for more!) because they are hard to find.

The thing about criticizing the Sanheim extension because it happened to come when the team is terrible (who could have seen that coming with some of the moves above) is Sanheim wouldn't have even been an expiring contract if Fletcher didn't completely botch his RFA years.

With a Sanheim trade you were looking at probably a first round pick. The team openly admitted to giving up a collections of picks for TDA that amounted up to a pick in the 30s. It would have essentially been a wash in value if you trade Sanheim and bring in TDA. And that assumes Fletcher doesn't completely fumble the trade! And I know which one I'd rather have now and in the future.

As long as the Flyers thought they were competing, why would they trade Laughton, the contract was a great deal.
And he can still be traded for about the same or more value, b/c his contract is below market value.

Risto was the lost opportunity, but that meant they were rebuilding and we know that's a curse word to the FO.

A pick in the 30s is not equivalent to a pick in the 20s, which is still far less value than a pick in the teens.
Value falls very quickly in the draft between #20 and #30+, then at a much slower rate.
The TDA 2024 2nd will probably end up in the 40s.