2022/23 Roster Thread XIV: Season's Beatings

[landsbergfan]

The funniest part is Ghost is a PP1 defenseman on the majority of teams, with scoring usage at ES. Him being a ~50 point guy isn’t really tied into usage on a bad team. It’s just what he is in spite of a bad team.

But Hayes is finally “the player they thought they were getting.” Did they also think they were getting a bottom 5 team? It glosses over he’s a train wreck in the details, wouldn’t be on a PP1, and wouldn’t be on a top line of any team but the worst offensive one in the league. It’s the very definition of padded usage on a bottom feeder that isn’t sustainable on a good team. Huzzah. Not to mention it’s based around 20ish games of high on-ice %s.

he's a somehow uglier ryan dzingel right now

 

[flyersnorth]

It was interesting to hear Charlie on BSH come as close as I've heard a Philly writer come to blaming development.

He essentially said he believes Provorov may have been affected by all of the instability in the organization since he's been here, and that it ultimately stunted his development.

So, not blaming "development" or any person or section of the organization specifically - but more of a general mish mash of multiple GMs, coaches, assistant coaches, defensive partners, expectations (heralded and treated as #1 for lack of better options), constant roster churn, etc.

Said he believes Provorov would be more realistically suited as a #3. Same for Sanheim.

Which begs the question - if we have no #1, and no #2 defensemen in the organization (either on the team or in the pipeline), what is the benefit in trading Provorov? How do you address what would be an even weaker defensive corps? What is the path to a #1 defenseman?

If it's through drafting, that requires multiple picks, a lot of luck, and likely many more years before that player is an impact player.

If it's trough a trade, it will cost a lot. Teams don't trade #1 defensemen.

If it's through a free agent signing, it will probably be fool's gold.

Is trading Provorov a smart move? Or just another move that will set the franchise back multiple years?

 

[Cody Webster]

I might regret asking this question - but what are people's opinion on Frost's season so far after 26 games?

3g, 3a, 6pts (12th on the team in terms of production).
On pace for 18 points.

41.1% on faceoffs.

xGF 10,1, xGA 10.3

GF/60 1.4, GA/60 2.3

Is he around where you expected?

 

[deadhead]

I might regret asking this question - but what are people's opinion on Frost's season so far after 26 games?

3g, 3a, 6pts (12th on the team in terms of production).
On pace for 18 points.

41.1% on faceoffs.

xGF 10,1, xGA 10.3

GF/60 1.4, GA/60 2.3

Is he around where you expected?

He's a disappointment. He did what was asked, improved his play off the puck, and has gotten more PT after the first ten games (when the team seemed to pick up Torts' scheme).

Last 17 games, 11:46 minutes, xGF 44.99%, xGFrel -2.75, GF/GA 4/8, PP: xGF/60: 4.22
Compare to Cates 12:24 minutes, 46.40%, xGRrel -0.93, GF/GA 8/6, PP: xGF/60: 5.91

Given that Cates is a rookie LW making the shift to center, and they've had equivalent quality on their wings, that's not a good look for Frost. He flashes skill at time, but disappears for long stretches, and struggles to play fast. At some point you run out of excuses and have to start making plays.

Why are veterans playing? On Merit it seems, xGFrel last 17 games - GF/GA
Sedlak +14.38 7/8
Seeler +9.25 11/6
Braun +6.87 8/9
Brown +4.40 3/2
Sanheim +4.37 10/15
MacEwen +4.10 9/6
Risto +3.86 9/7
TK +3.02 7/10
Deslauriers +0.92 2/5
Farabee -0.93 12/9
Cates -0.93 8/6
Frost -2.75 4/8
Laczynski -3.27 3/2
Laughton -3.39 6/7
Tippett - 4.51 7/15
Hayes -5.28 12/16
Provorov -10.90 10/14
TDA -11.21 8/14

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I might regret asking this question - but what are people's opinion on Frost's season so far after 26 games?

3g, 3a, 6pts (12th on the team in terms of production).
On pace for 18 points.

41.1% on faceoffs.

xGF 10,1, xGA 10.3

GF/60 1.4, GA/60 2.3

Is he around where you expected?

given how hes been deployed its amazing its as good as it is...

 

[deadhead]

Is trading Provorov a smart move? Or just another move that will set the franchise back multiple years?

Provorov may have been screwed up by "development" (though it seems more a matter of too many coaching changes, but somehow Sanheim managed to develop in the same environment), but I think a bigger issue was he was physically mature at a young age, and it turned out, there just wasn't much upside there. He plays better with a stable RHD because he's not a lead dog.

You trade him b/c of his age, his lack of upside, his current value, and York, Zamula and Andrae all probably better at LHD than RHD.

His 24 minutes won't be missed as much as you'd think, take away his 1:39 on the PP, 18:50 at ES is about 2 minutes more than a replacement. His 3:09 on the PK will be harder to replace by a rookie.

But he won't be moved until the summer, it's really hard to trade contracts with term at the TDL.
Which gives him another 55 games to turn it around and show he's part of the future.

 

[BernieParent]

Someway, somehow, teams around the league manage to get their bottom six players to attempt more than grind the perimeter. Somehow, all of them manage to be more productive through their roster from top to bottom. Somehow, they get their players to do modern offense.

If the Flyers are so utterly devoid of talent that they can't try to set up mutual support on entry for drop passes or to take a horizontal pass in the slot instead of steering to the far side to be ready when play hits the boards, then you should be howling for Fletcher's head with the rest of us. Because to be that braindead and unable to play basic hockey from top to bottom is a feat of failure shy of lobotomizing your roster one-by-one with a screwdriver and mallet. This stuff doesn't require a Cray processor for a brain or elite talent. It's normal hockey play now. It's not that advanced, at all. Just a different way of using normal skills. Is it riskier? Yes. But it pays off, a lot.

Not north-south enough, Beef. Get on the bench.

 

[pooch]

I might regret asking this question - but what are people's opinion on Frost's season so far after 26 games?

3g, 3a, 6pts (12th on the team in terms of production).
On pace for 18 points.

41.1% on faceoffs.

xGF 10,1, xGA 10.3

GF/60 1.4, GA/60 2.3

Is he around where you expected?

Very disappointing. I was hoping for more from him.

 

[Curufinwe]

Trading Provorov for futures is definitely a smart move. Unless you fancy giving him 8 x $8m+ in a few years. I sure don't.

The Flyers are 29th over the past two + seasons with Provorov getting the most minutes on the team - 400 more than anyone else. How do you get set back from that? By being 30th without him?

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Trading Provorov for futures is definitely a smart move. Unless you fancy giving him 8 x $8m+ in a few years. I sure don't.

The Flyers are 29th over the past two + seasons with Provorov getting the most minutes on the team - 400 more than anyone else. How do you get set back from that? By being 30th without him?

Provy for something in the top 10 this year would be stellar.

 

[BiggE]

They'd be in the same place. Slightly better off, but nothing dramatic.

If they didn't hire AV, they'd have hired another "turn around" veteran HC.
if they kept Ghost, they would just have a similar player to TDA.
Caufield would help the scoring, but the defense would be even worse.

They'd have a decent prospect (#14), a couple more 2nd rd picks, not quite enough to jump start a rebuild.

This is some serious spin here. First off, they wouldn’t be locked into 4 more years of a 6/7 Dman making 5.1 million per. Oh, and still having that additional 2nd, 3rd, and 4th would be nice too. And with all those additional 1st and 2nd round picks (4 at my count) you increase your chances of landing quality, cost controlled players. Also, with no AV, and Ghost still here, you don’t bring in a useless turd like Yandle last season.

Your inability to criticize this failing organization for anything is truly laughable

 

[VladDrag]

I might regret asking this question - but what are people's opinion on Frost's season so far after 26 games?

3g, 3a, 6pts (12th on the team in terms of production).
On pace for 18 points.

41.1% on faceoffs.

xGF 10,1, xGA 10.3

GF/60 1.4, GA/60 2.3

Is he around where you expected?

Without getting too involved in this, because I don't feel like arguing with Deady, he's been just okay. I want him to produce more, but he also has the worst on ice shooing percentage, well below the NHL average. He's been involved in some really good scoring chances, and sooner or later they will start going in. Just moved to to halfwall on the top PP, and all of a sudden it started to look decent. But he needs to be more assertive with the puck on his stick. He's too passive.

His private tracking data is good too. He's been good through the neutral zone and with entries. He's also contributing to lots of offensive threat. There's a player waiting to be unlocked. It's coming. Check back in another 20 games.

 

[deadhead]

This is some serious spin here. First off, they wouldn’t be locked into 4 more years of a 6/7 Dman making 5.1 million per. Oh, and still having that additional 2nd, 3rd, and 4th would be nice too. And with all those additional 1st and 2nd round picks (4 at my count) you increase your chances of landing quality, cost controlled players. Also, with no AV, and Ghost still here, you don’t bring in a useless turd like Yandle last season.

Your inability to criticize this failing organization for anything is truly laughable

No spin. People exaggerate impacts, just look at the data.

Hextall had 8 1st, 6 2nds in 5 years, but only 2 in the top ten and missed on Patrick and came up short with Provorov - far more impactful than anything Fletcher did. Wasn't enough to finish a rebuild, so #14 in a weak draft and (3) 2nds isn't a game changer. Helpful, but 2nd rd picks are far less valuable than first rd picks, closer in value to 3rd rd picks.

Yandle helped us get #5, in terms of a rebuild, he was a net benefit.

We'd be better off without those moves, but we'd still suck and we'd still be facing a long rebuild.
It took a decade of FO incompetence to get here, Fletcher might be the icing on the shit cake, but he didn't bake the cake.

 

[BiggE]

He’s a straw man
Spinning all the day
Cannot blame Cuckles
For the team goin astray
He’s a straw man
Spewing out the shit
I hope one day he sees
It’s really not worth it

 

[wankstifier]

We're going to get another trade deadline with Fletcher before he's relegated to a consulting role. Molasses

 

[freakydallas13]

"If Charles Entertainment Fletcher didn't make all those mistakes (shout out to "the lone mistake"), this team would still be bad but also have a bunch more picks, so who cares."

The absolute state of Fletcher boot kissing.

 

[Striiker]

Not skipped on Caufield

Boldy

 

[renberg]

I’m not for making a call on several young guys. They’re being played out of position or with anchors that drag them down. Frost seems to have something that is valuable as does Cates. They need more sensible usage and line mates. It’s the anchors that need to be gone. Some of them are being allowed to hang around too long.

 

[Striiker]

There's two types of people.

1) the ones who claim Frost is a disappointment, who only look at raw point production

2) the ones who actually understand the sport, see what he's individually doing on the ice, and understand the impact of usage/teammates/systems on a players production

is their such thing as busts in nhl? or everything is the coaches fault even though some of our players that got picked up the best teams and coaching staff's in nhl arent on that roster. you are saying those coaches suck too?

 

[Beef Invictus]

They'd be in the same place. Slightly better off, but nothing dramatic.

If they didn't hire AV, they'd have hired another "turn around" veteran HC.
if they kept Ghost, they would just have a similar player to TDA.
Caufield would help the scoring, but the defense would be even worse.

They'd have a decent prospect (#14), a couple more 2nd rd picks, not quite enough to jump start a rebuild.

No they would actually be in a better place, not the same place. Like clearly better.

Getting better players instead of bad players makes quite a large difference. Not adding league-worst players in particular is quite a huge upgrade.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I look forward to Frost breaking out on another team. At this point everything that embarrasses management is a win. They are the team's true and only rivals. Clarke is the biggest rival this team has ever had.

 

[flyers0909]

At some point you run out of excuses and have to start making plays (except Ristolainen)

 

[Curufinwe]

Risto should have changed his uniform number to 00, not 55.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Without getting too involved in this, because I don't feel like arguing with Deady, he's been just okay. I want him to produce more, but he also has the worst on ice shooing percentage, well below the NHL average. He's been involved in some really good scoring chances, and sooner or later they will start going in. Just moved to to halfwall on the top PP, and all of a sudden it started to look decent. But he needs to be more assertive with the puck on his stick. He's too passive.

His private tracking data is good too. He's been good through the neutral zone and with entries. He's also contributing to lots of offensive threat. There's a player waiting to be unlocked. It's coming. Check back in another 20 games.

When that shooting percentage normalizes, probably on another team, a lot of people are going to be wondering what went wrong.

 

[deadhead]

I doubt Frost will break out anywhere, he might settle in as a 3C, but I see nothing that suggests top 6 forward.
All you have to do is look at TK and Farabee to see the difference, he's simply not in their class.

However, given the season is lost anyway, they should play Frost and Cates at center, and give Tippett similar minutes.
But I'd limit my expectations of Frost, he's never going to live up to the hype based on his CHL performance.