2022/23 Roster Thread XIII: Where the 13th Floor Has Been Located

[Beef Invictus]

“It’s Hextalls fault that Fletcher took roster on the rise”

A roster “on the rise.”

LMAO.

Well, until Fletcher ruined it.

 

[gertbfrobe16]

Nope, USS Franklin.

The Belknap fire also would have been a good one, what with some hard lessons learned about aluminum.

Edit: if you'd like some reading: USS Franklin CV-13 War Damage Report No. 56

My ship replaced the Belknap on the south america cruise it was supposed to make, after it blew up it's fire room.

 

[VladDrag]

One year doesn't allow you to identify any patterns, other than a dislike of the Sedin brothers.

Is this a joke?

 

[Striiker]

Well, until Fletcher ruined it.

Yup.

The roster in Hextalls last full year (2017-2018) is clearly better than the one he took over (May 2014) and the one we have now.

That means under him it was rising and since he left it’s gone back downhill.

2014 (Pre-Hextall)	2018 (Hextall)	2022 (Post-Hextall)
Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Hartnell Downie Lecavalier Rinaldo Vandevelde Hall	Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Konecny Lindblom Laughton Read Weal Patrick	Couturier Konecny Laughton Hayes Farabee JVR Atkinson Tippett Deslauriers Bellows Cates MacEwen Sedlak Frost Allison Laczynski
Timonen Coburn Grossmann Streit Meszaros Schenn	Ghost Provorov Sanheim Gudas MacDonald Hagg	Provorov DeAngelo Sanheim Ristolainen Braun Seeler
Emery Mason	Neuvirth Elliott	Hart Sandstrom

I know which of the three I’m taking

2018 is clearly the best of the three and 2022 is clearly the worst of the three. That’s 100% on Fletcher.

 

[Rebels57]

We could’ve had stankoven, jiricek, caufield…

Instead we have toumalla, Gauthier, york

Dont forget Jason Robertson instead of Ratcliffe.

 

[Curufinwe]

You got to be kidding me!

Voracek's last good season was 2019, downhill since.
Ghost has padded his stats in Zona, but is no longer a top 4 D-man. Hagg is a #6 D-man.
The rest were in Philly and they still sucked the last two years.

The 2015 core was younger and deeper.

Weird how the 19-20 season was the best Flyers season in a decade with such a bad core.

The 2015 core didn't have a dman with genuine top pairing upside, unlike the 2019 core which had two.

 

[deadhead]

Yup.

The roster in Hextalls last full year (2017-2018) is clearly better than the one he took over (May 2014) and the one we have now.

That means under him it was rising and since he left it’s gone back downhill.

2014 (Pre-Hextall)	2018 (Hextall)	2022 (Post-Hextall)
Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Hartnell Downie Lecavalier Rinaldo Vandevelde Hall	Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Konecny Lindblom Laughton Read Weal Patrick	Couturier Konecny Laughton Hayes Farabee JVR Atkinson Tippett Deslauriers Bellows Cates MacEwen Sedlak Frost Allison Laczynski
Timonen Coburn Grossmann Streit Meszaros Schenn	Ghost Provorov Sanheim Gudas MacDonald Hagg	Provorov DeAngelo Sanheim Ristolainen Braun Seeler
Emery Mason	Neuvirth Elliott	Hart Sandstrom

I know which of the three I’m taking

2018 is clearly the best of the three and 2022 is clearly the worst of the three. That’s 100% on Fletcher.

Uh, Hextall had traded Schenn, you're too young to have senior moments.

Voracek, Raffl, Simmonds, Read all were close to their expiration dates. Lindblom was just a shame.
I'd much rather have the 2022 team if it were healthy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Uh, Hextall had traded Schenn, you're too young to have senior moments.

Voracek, Raffl, Simmonds, Read all were close to their expiration dates. Lindblom was just a shame.
I'd much rather have the 2022 team if it were healthy.

"All those players would eventually become worse than they were" is a ridiculous argument.

 

[Curufinwe]

Points scored by top 8 Flyer forwards between 10/1/2015 and 12/3/2018 (end of Hextall era)
Giroux - 257 in 267 GP
Voracek - 221 in 262 GP
Simmonds - 173 in 263 GP
Couturier - 168 in 236 GP
Schenn - 114 in 159 GP
Konecny - 91 in 176 GP
Raffl - 66 in 221 GP
Laughton - 51 in 179 GP
1141 points in 1763 games (0.65 P/GP)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Points scored by top 8 Flyer forwards between since 12/4/2018 (Fletcher error)
Konecny - 199 in 269 GP
Giroux - 193 in 237 GP
Couturier - 174 in 198 GP
JVR - 170 in 267 GP
Voracek - 145 in 175 GP
Hayes - 122 in 191 GP
Laughton - 106 in 244 GP
Farabee - 105 in 189 GP
1214 points scored in 1770 games (0.69 P/GP)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Funny how useless old Jake is still 23 points ahead of the much younger Hayes despite playing 16 fewer games

 

[deadhead]

Points scored by top 8 Flyer forwards between 10/1/2015 and 12/3/2018 (end of Hextall era)
Giroux - 257 in 267 GP
Voracek - 221 in 262 GP
Simmonds - 173 in 263 GP
Couturier - 168 in 236 GP
Schenn - 114 in 159 GP
Konecny - 91 in 176 GP
Raffl - 66 in 221 GP
Laughton - 51 in 179 GP
1141 points in 1763 games (0.65 P/GP)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Points scored by top 8 Flyer forwards between since 12/4/2018 (Fletcher error)
Konecny - 199 in 269 GP
Giroux - 193 in 237 GP
Couturier - 174 in 198 GP
JVR - 170 in 267 GP
Voracek - 145 in 175 GP
Hayes - 122 in 191 GP
Laughton - 106 in 244 GP
Farabee - 105 in 189 GP
1214 points scored in 1770 games (0.69 P/GP)

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Funny how useless old Jake is still 23 points ahead of the much younger Hayes despite playing 16 fewer games

Funny how Jake's defense went into the toilet after his first year with AV (and we'll ignore his ECHL level shooting).
Jake was horrible this season before he went on IR, and still has one year left at $8.25M.
Hayes at least has some future at LW, he's just not a top 6 center anymore.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hayes is 30 and Jake is 33. Hayes still has three years left at $7.14M after this one where he has already been moved out of the middle in favor of a 23 year old winger with only 35 games of pro experience. Voracek also had 62 points last season - 7 more than Hayes has ever scored in a single season. Hayes had the worst ES GA/60 Rel on any regular Flyer in 21/22 - even worse than Yandle. Voracek actually had a negative ES GA/60 rel for CBJ, so his defense was FAR better than Hayes' last season.

Nice try glossing over the fact Fletcher's top 8 forwards have actually been MORE productive than the Hextall core you said were so great. Despite all that scoring, the defense under Fletcher has been terrible, which is why they will soon be below .500 with him as GM.

 

[Craft Beer Lover]

Yup.

The roster in Hextalls last full year (2017-2018) is clearly better than the one he took over (May 2014) and the one we have now.

That means under him it was rising and since he left it’s gone back downhill.

2014 (Pre-Hextall)	2018 (Hextall)	2022 (Post-Hextall)
Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Hartnell Downie Lecavalier Rinaldo Vandevelde Hall	Giroux Voracek Couturier Raffl Schenn Simmonds Konecny Lindblom Laughton Read Weal Patrick	Couturier Konecny Laughton Hayes Farabee JVR Atkinson Tippett Deslauriers Bellows Cates MacEwen Sedlak Frost Allison Laczynski
Timonen Coburn Grossmann Streit Meszaros Schenn	Ghost Provorov Sanheim Gudas MacDonald Hagg	Provorov DeAngelo Sanheim Ristolainen Braun Seeler
Emery Mason	Neuvirth Elliott	Hart Sandstrom

I know which of the three I’m taking

2018 is clearly the best of the three and 2022 is clearly the worst of the three. That’s 100% on Fletcher.

There is ample blame to go around. Hextall’s philosophy of holding on to all draft picks is the wise and correct one. However, a good GM has to make the right decisions with these draft choices. Hextall failed in each of his first four drafts:

2014: Drafted Travis Sanheim over star right wing David Pastrnak, whom Boston grabbed eight selections later.

2015: Drafted Ivan Provorov over all-star defenseman Zach Werenski, star winger Mikko Rantanen, playmaking center Mathew Barzal, and top pairing defenseman Thomas Chabot,

2016: Traded down to draft German Rubtsov when blossoming center Tage Thompson was available four picks later. Norris Trophy winner Adam Fox was also available when he selected Carter Hart, a good but certainly not the same value as a Norris Trophy caliber defenseman.

2017: We all know what a disaster this draft was. Lucked out on winning the second position in the draft, and selected his hometown Brandon boy Nolan Patrick who was already injury-prone, when his scouts wanted generational defenseman Cale Makar; also available were Norris Trophy-level defenseman Miro Heiskanen, and center Elias Petterson.

What would the dynamics of this team look like had they drafted just one or two of these players over the ones they did draft? How would their transition look with Makar continually driving the play up the ice at 5v5, and on PP1? These draft omissions are unforgivable, and THAT is on Hextall.

Well, until Fletcher ruined it.

 

[Curufinwe]

Tage Thompson is 100% hindsight.

 

[FLYguy3911]

The “what if he drafted the literal best player” every single year, revisionist history is getting old. We’re seriously complaining about getting a top pair quality defenseman in the middle of the 2014 first round?

If you were screaming on draft day they should have drafted player X, by all means go flex, but complaining that they drafted German Rubtsov in 2016 when the back half of that first round was literal trash seems tedious. Hell we are seeing the popular choice at that pick wearing orange and black now and it is quite ugly.

And players drafted under Hextall certainly weren’t helped by the GM change.

 

[BlackandOrange]

I think if you play the whole hindsight game of "The team could/should have chosen X player at slot Y," can only can apply if X player was taken within Y+1 to Y+3. Anything more than that is just rose coloured reverse lenses.

Take 2015, you could legit say they should have taken Werenski (#8), Meier (#9), or Rantanen (#10) instead of Provorov (#7), but if someone throws out a name like Kyle Connor (#17), or Chabot (#18) that be the hindsight talking.

Note: May not be the greatest example because Boston had 3 questionable picks in a row in the early teens, which could throw my point off. I just wanted to use a semi-recent draft that people remember, and where players have had a chance to develop.

 

[deadhead]

Hayes is 30 and Jake is 33. Hayes still has three years left at $7.14M after this one where he has already been moved out of the middle in favor of a 23 year old winger with only 35 games of pro experience. Voracek also had 62 points last season - 7 more than Hayes has ever scored in a single season. Hayes had the worst ES GA/60 Rel on any regular Flyer in 21/22 - even worse than Yandle. Voracek actually had a negative ES GA/60 rel for CBJ, so his defense was FAR better than Hayes' last season.

Nice try glossing over the fact Fletcher's top 8 forwards have actually been MORE productive than the Hextall core you said were so great. Despite all that scoring, the defense under Fletcher has been terrible, which is why they will soon be below .500 with him as GM.

Hayes played through an injury that had to be excruciating to skate on, can't knock a player for that. The last two years when healthy he's scored at the same pace he's scoring this year, close to a PPG.

He has lost a stride due to those injuries, and is better suited to wing now, but he should be a top scoring wing for a few more seasons (and can play both sides, was a RW before he moved to center). If they can find a suitable center I suspect his defense will be much better at wing where there's less skating required.

The real point is that Holmgren passed on shit to Hextall who passed on shit to Fletcher who's going to pass on shit to Briere.
And the primary reason is the failure to commit to a long-term vision.

 

[Starat327]

The “what if he drafted the literal best player” every single year, revisionist history is getting old. We’re seriously complaining about getting a top pair quality defenseman in the middle of the 2014 draft?

If you were screaming on draft day they should have drafted player X, by all means go flex, but complaining that they drafted German Rubtsov in 2016 when the back half of that first round was literal trash seems tedious. Hell we are seeing the popular choice at that pick wearing orange and black now and it is quite ugly.

And players drafted under Hextall certainly weren’t helped by the GM change.

Wait, you mean you didnt know the complete development trajectory of every player in the draft before you drafted them? Was your crystal ball broken or something, bro? Come on.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Wait, you mean you didnt know the complete development trajectory of every player in the draft before you drafted them? Was your crystal ball broken or something, bro? Come on.

My ranks are on record for the last three drafts so if in the rare occurrence that Chuck Fletcher is actually wrong, you guys will not hear the end of it.

 

[deadhead]

Well, we could have taken Robertson instead of Ratcliffe or Frot.

 

[Starat327]

My ranks are on record for the last three drafts so if in the rare occurrence that Chuck Fletcher is actually wrong, you guys will not hear the end of it.

How do you factor the flyer's poor development into the top 5 picks?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Tage Thompson is 100% hindsight.

Thompson analytically was towards the bottom of the league in terms of least valuable forwards until last & this year. The Flyers development likely isn’t leveraging his strengths & flaws like Buffalo did. They’re likely taking the opposite approaching in seeing what he’s not opposed to what he is & leveraging that.

 

[deadhead]

I have seen no evidence that the Flyer development is any worse than the majority of NHL teams.

If they truly had bad development, players would be going elsewhere and shining after a couple seasons of "recovery."
TK, Sanheim have developed nicely, Farabee's struggles are probably more physical (major surgery).
Provorov seems less a development issue than a player's ego (hard to coach).
And try to name a young player who succeeded elsewhere after struggling here.

Now you could claim that for Buffalo, where a number of players have left and improved, but is that development or just suppression due to playing on a bad team? Though given how poor Risto is at fundamental defense, I'd suspect development, but the proof would be if Shaw can turn him into a respectable defenseman.

The fact that a player doesn't live up to expectations doesn't necessarily point to development, it may be the player's talent was overestimated - it's when that player goes elsewhere and improves you start wondering.

 

[Starat327]

Thompson analytically was towards the bottom of the league in terms of least valuable forwards until last & this year. The Flyers development likely isn’t leveraging his strengths & flaws like Buffalo did. They’re likely taking the opposite approaching in seeing what he’s not opposed to what he is & leveraging that.

This is crazy talk. Everyone knows player developmental Arcs are linear and work independently of things like organizational development, teammates, opportunities et cetera.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

This is crazy talk. Everyone knows player developmental Arcs are linear and work independently of things like organizational development, teammates, opportunities et cetera.

I shouldn’t even necessarily say development. The Flyers are just horrible at tangibly identifying what a player’s strengths & weaknesses are. They operate in conventional archetypes on what they think at player should be regardless if the player is actually good at it or not.

Thompson is essentially an all offense skilled/shooting center in a big man’s body. The Flyers likely wouldn’t have accepted that from the early stages & would have moved on by now.

 

[Starat327]

I shouldn’t even necessarily say development. The Flyers are just horrible at tangibly identifying what a player’s strengths & weaknesses are. They operate in conventional archetypes on what they think at player should be regardless if the player is actually good at it or not.

Thompson is essentially an all offense skilled/shooting center in a big man’s body. The Flyers likely wouldn’t have accepted that from the early stages & would have moved on by now.

My original post was tongue in cheek, to be clear.

I would argue that being incapable of identifying what a player is good or not at, and/or forcing a player to focus on improving the lower end of their skill set vs exploiting their higher end (as the flyers do) would be a failure in development.