2022/23 Roster Thread XIII: Where the 13th Floor Has Been Located

[BlackandOrange]

Flyers Development? Try watching any LHV or Allentown game in the last 10 years. Systemless slop. They only made the playoffs when they stacked the roster with career AHLers at the expense of their prospects. I don't know why their guys from the SHL or CHL all take a nosedive in development when they get there, but I know that they do.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

"Development" is the excuse used by people who don't want to admit their prospect evaluation was wrong.

 

[deadhead]

I shouldn’t even necessarily say development. The Flyers are just horrible at tangibly identifying what a player’s strengths & weaknesses are. They operate in conventional archetypes on what they think at player should be regardless if the player is actually good at it or not.

Thompson is essentially an all offense skilled/shooting center in a big man’s body. The Flyers likely wouldn’t have accepted that from the early stages & would have moved on by now.

Well, that has changed under Torts. Not that he's a genius, just a HC with common sense.

Ok, I looked at Hodgson, no.
Cates is a smart guy, I need one center who can play defense, let's take a look. It's working, I'll stick with it.
Hayes is my best scorer, but he's UGLY at center, yes, I lack centers but still, move him to wing.
Frost, you're not good enough on offense to be a defensive liability, ok, you worked hard off the puck, I'll reward you with top 6 minutes, see if you can handle it.

The key is to try people in different spots, see how they look, and if it isn't going well, move on.
Which is why I expect at some point he'll give up on the Provorov - TDA pairing.
But right now it can get tricky, with so many injuries out, improving one line or D-pair means hurting another.

 

[FlyerNutter]

ASF on Kevin Hayes: “He’s not going to be here long term let’s put it that way”

 

[Ghosts Beer]

ASF on Kevin Hayes: “He’s not going to be here long term let’s put it that way”

That much has been obvious to me from the start.

Glad he's putting up points.

 

[deadhead]

As far as "development," most of your top prospects spend little or no time in LHV, it's the second tier prospects who have limited talent who get "developed" at the AHL level. And those are the ones that have to play good fundamental defense b/c they lack the innate skills to get by on offensive talent while they learn how to play. A lot of development occurs in the summer, from weight training to working with skating coaches and just practicing basic skills (like shooting).

At the NHL level there is less development b/c there is less time to practice between games and travel (AHL often has 4-5 day stretches without games each week). A lot of development is simply proper usage, shelter young players, pair them with veteran mentors, and let them work their way up the "food chain."

Depends on background, most CHL players aren't well coached (junior HC jobs don't pay that well), while kids from major college programs probably have more sophisticated coaching staffs, better facilities and play against physically mature opponents. A college kid with 3-4 years playing and coming out at 21-22 is going to be well ahead of a CHL kid at 20 in their first season of pro hockey.

 

[FlyerNutter]

That much has been obvious to me from the start.

Glad he's putting up points.

It would be an incredibly strange shift after the team marketing him so hard, and trying to get all buddies on to the club. Although I’ll concede the 2nd might have been a coincidence.

It’s even weirder that basically anything that’s happened under the tenure of Vigneault is ignored, or not so silently blamed.

This FO chose to hire AV. Chose to retain him for another year after he clearly lost the team. Coaches, and players - are apparently at some point held to a level of accountability. Yet other members of the organization hold lifelong jobs without a second thought.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I shouldn’t even necessarily say development. The Flyers are just horrible at tangibly identifying what a player’s strengths & weaknesses are. They operate in conventional archetypes on what they think at player should be regardless if the player is actually good at it or not.

Thompson is essentially an all offense skilled/shooting center in a big man’s body. The Flyers likely wouldn’t have accepted that from the early stages & would have moved on by now.

so ur saying making a Dman into a forward isnt a sMert move ?

 

[Rebels57]

There is ample blame to go around. Hextall’s philosophy of holding on to all draft picks is the wise and correct one. However, a good GM has to make the right decisions with these draft choices. Hextall failed in each of his first four drafts:

2014: Drafted Travis Sanheim over star right wing David Pastrnak, whom Boston grabbed eight selections later.

2015: Drafted Ivan Provorov over all-star defenseman Zach Werenski, star winger Mikko Rantanen, playmaking center Mathew Barzal, and top pairing defenseman Thomas Chabot,

2016: Traded down to draft German Rubtsov when blossoming center Tage Thompson was available four picks later. Norris Trophy winner Adam Fox was also available when he selected Carter Hart, a good but certainly not the same value as a Norris Trophy caliber defenseman.

2017: We all know what a disaster this draft was. Lucked out on winning the second position in the draft, and selected his hometown Brandon boy Nolan Patrick who was already injury-prone, when his scouts wanted generational defenseman Cale Makar; also available were Norris Trophy-level defenseman Miro Heiskanen, and center Elias Petterson.

What would the dynamics of this team look like had they drafted just one or two of these players over the ones they did draft? How would their transition look with Makar continually driving the play up the ice at 5v5, and on PP1? These draft omissions are unforgivable, and THAT is on Hextall.

His scouts NEVER wanted Makar. That has already been proven to be a LIE by Clarke. They were discussing Patrick vs. Heiskanen by all reputable accounts.

 

[deadhead]

I doubt they can move Hayes before the summer, but if he puts up 60-70 points there will be a market with the cap going up.
A number of teams play a more deliberate style than Torts, and Hayes is a better fit at wing for those teams.
It may well turn out that Hayes settles in at wing and there's no rush.
The fate of the walking wounded will probably drive some decisions.

I'd like to see them shut down Atkinson, have him get the shoulder fixed, a year off would improve the odds they'd get good production out of his last two seasons. At that age, letting his entire body heal for a year isn't a bad thing.

Couts, if he's able to play in April would probably be activated just to get a feel what he could contribute in 2023-24. If he can skate without pain he'd be back in the 1C spot going forward.

Farabee (23) - Couts (31) - Atkinson (34)
Gauthier (19) - Frost (24) - TK (26)
Laughton (29) - Cates (24) - Tippett (24)
Deslauriers (32) - ??? - Allison (26)
Lycksell (24), Desnoyers (21) - Foerster (21), Wisdom (21)
MacEwen, Sedlak???

York (22) - TDA (29)
Sanheim (27) - Attard (24)
Zamula (22) - Risto (29)
Seeler???

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

ASF on Kevin Hayes: “He’s not going to be here long term let’s put it that way”

Which rebuilding team is getting draft picks to take that contract on?

 

[flyerslducks]

Dont forget Jason Robertson instead of Ratcliffe.

I was going to put him but decided against it…just pissed me off even more lol. He’s the crown jewel f*** up. Plus, he was a few more picks behind while the other three we’re immediately after (caufield case we passed twice smh).

 

[FlyerNutter]

Which rebuilding team is getting draft picks to take that contract on?

Only way it would happen. The smart move of course would be to just keep him really at this point.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Getting rid of Hayes' contract without giving up too much would be huge, especially if we could get an expiring contract or minimal cap hit back.

He can be a productive player elsewhere, but his salary allocation given his age could be better spent elsewhere.

Same thing applies to Risto (who I doubt can be moved at this point) and Provorov.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Which rebuilding team is getting draft picks to take that contract on?

The Avalanche.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Di Marco: "We do know Clarke, and Holmgren pushed hard for Torts"

I've got him, and Myrtetus live on the little pod. Asking about lack of accountability in FO/scouting/development.

To explain the structure of the Flyer FO.

 

[deadhead]

If the cap goes up $4M this summer (depends if the Escrow is paid back), and similar increases the next two years, a 3yr/$21M contract won't be as hard to move as the last few years. Same with Risto two years from now, a 3yr/$15M contract with the cap over $90M won't be as difficult to move.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It would be an incredibly strange shift after the team marketing him so hard, and trying to get all buddies on to the club. Although I’ll concede the 2nd might have been a coincidence.

It’s even weirder that basically anything that’s happened under the tenure of Vigneault is ignored, or not so silently blamed.

This FO chose to hire AV. Chose to retain him for another year after he clearly lost the team. Coaches, and players - are apparently at some point held to a level of accountability. Yet other members of the organization hold lifelong jobs without a second thought.

I'd argue that it's Hextall's tenure that is ignored. Teflon Ron. But whatever.

I've said I'd give Torts carte blanche over player management. I don't care who is the figurehead.

 

[deadhead]

Di Marco: "We do know Clarke, and Holmgren pushed hard for Torts"

I've got him, and Myrtetus live on the little pod. Asking about lack of accountability in FO/scouting/development.

To explain the structure of the Flyer FO.

That's a bit amusing, I think they thought Torts was different from the reality, a taskmaster that would turn this team around without having to rebuild - not the realist who would give an honest appraisal of the shit storm he inherited. He's the right guy hired for the wrong reason, he is instilling structure on this team and holding players accountable (but it's been 19 games, he's not going to make every move you want immediately), and implicitly, the FO accountable as well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'd argue that it's Hextall's tenure that is ignored. Teflon Ron. But whatever.

I've said I'd give Torts carte blanche over player management. I don't care who is the figurehead.

Nobody ignores Hextall's tenure. There you go making stuff up as usual. The fact you like to ignore is that he's responsible for most of the good players on the roster while Fletcher, not Hextall, is responsible for all the miserable failures.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's a bit amusing, I think they thought Torts was different from the reality, a taskmaster that would turn this team around without having to rebuild - not the realist who would give an honest appraisal of the shit storm he inherited. He's the right guy hired for the wrong reason, he is instilling structure on this team and holding players accountable (but it's been 19 games, he's not going to make every move you want immediately), and implicitly, the FO accountable as well.

Tortorella is not holding the front office accountable. That's the most ridiculous shit imaginable.

 

[deadhead]

When he puts Risto on the 3rd pair, Hayes at wing, etc., he's implicitly holding them accountable.
When he says this team may need longer than his contract to rebuild . . .

 

[Beef Invictus]

When he puts Risto on the 3rd pair, Hayes at wing, etc., he's implicitly holding them accountable.
When he says this team may need longer than his contract to rebuild . . .

So in reality he's not holding them accountable at all because he has no power to do anything.

He doesn't get to choose if the team is rebuilding. That's Fletcher's decision. Fletcher is clearly not rebuilding. Also, Tortorella is famously full of shit with the media. His own actions indicate he's not trying to push a rebuild.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Di Marco: "We do know Clarke, and Holmgren pushed hard for Torts"

I've got him, and Myrtetus live on the little pod. Asking about lack of accountability in FO/scouting/development.

To explain the structure of the Flyer FO.

#sameasiteverwas..

imagine in 2022 they are still valueing Clarkes opinions on NHL hockey..

#maximumpain

 

[FlyerNutter]

Tortorella is not holding the front office accountable. That's the most ridiculous shit imaginable.

You can bet your ass Torts is trying to become part of that FO one day. He's not going to piss off the old guard that directly aligns with his overall hockey beliefs.

#sameasiteverwas..

imagine in 2022 they are still valueing Clarkes opinions on NHL hockey..

#maximumpain

I still fail to see where some young guy from Canada is getting inside Flyer knowledge, because he kind of just repeats what I hear elsewhere. Will say he's at least easier to talk to than Myrtetus, who just gets ultra defensive about the team at any time.