2022/23 Roster Thread XII: The Twelfth Night, a comedy play

[flyersnorth]

Team that desperately needs someone to actually market, and elite talent does everything possible to not draft in a favourable position.

It’s not about success here. It’s about marketing an outdated identity, and maintaining jobs for incompetent men in the Flyers family above anything else.

Flyers know best after all.

It's frustrating for sure. I mean, I'm 100% sure they want success... they want nothing more than to have a great team and raise some silverware.

They just don't know how to get there.

I gotta say - I was skeptical about the whole "identity" thing. But honestly, I'm finding them fun to watch so far this year. Without Hart, their W/L record is likely reversed... and Hart being this good is encouraging for the long run.

At the same time, having Hart and Torts be good enough on their own to take them out of (realistic) lottery territory is not good for the long run. There's nothing in the organization that is remotely top level talent that can come in and raise the bar.

Which prospect has the highest ceiling? Gauthier? Obviously too soon to tell, but his pre-draft projections were underwhelming.

"I see him as a middle six forward, either a second line winger or a third line center.” (Pronman)​

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"He likely becomes a contributing bottom-six forward, but does have the tools to be a player that moves up and down the lineup and performs.” (FC Hockey)​

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"Gauthier has the potential to fit in several slots on an NHL lineup due to his positional flexibility, and it’ll make him a valuable player to any team; contending or building. However, the middle-six forward role may be his most suitable spot." (THW)​

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"Gauthier is one of the few prospects in this draft who can be qualified as sure bets to play in the NHL one day. He has a safe floor as a third-line Swiss Army knife, and his positional versatility solidifies that floor even further. " (HK Scouting)​

So basically, Scott Laughton.

We already have an organization full of middle and bottom sixers. Nothing wrong with upgrading those guys with better (and younger) versions, but they are just sideways or incremental improvements.

I'm enjoying watching them this year while being mindful that it takes us further away from building a truly sustainable and competitive team.

 

[BlackandOrange]

psssst... its the same result ...

But being a perpetual 2 years away, there is false hope!

 

[BiggE]

WOOOO!

Aging vets and AHLers, it’s the Cuck special, aka the Flyers way

 

[Striiker]

Unfortunately Ristolainen on a good day is still horrendous.

But he's right handed so

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Flyers leading goal scorers:

Konecny, 4
Laughton, 3
MacEwen, 3
Farabee, 3

Yikes.

 

[BiggE]

If the best you can do with 5OA is draft the next Scott Laughton, then your team must be run by Cuck Fletchbag and his sidekick Lardass Flahr.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Flyers leading goal scorers:

Konecny, 4
Laughton, 3
MacEwen, 3
Farabee, 3

Yikes.

Flyers have the 2nd least goals scored. 28 in 11 games. Only St Louis is worse, but they've also played 2 games less than the Flyers. 3rd worst GF per game overall. Torts hockey everybody! Offense won't be high but you can sure as shit expect padded goalie stats. Not saying Hart hasn't been great, but it's Torts hockey. Offense is tertiary to him.

 

[Striiker]

This is the part of the year where someone tells us MacEwen's 17.65% shooting isn't an unsustainable fluke.

 

[flyersnorth]

Don't worry so much about the draft position all the time . Were was Giroux drafted , were was Patrick drafted . TK , Barzel , Kyle Conner Hart etc . It's more important to hit on the picks you have than constantly focusing on the draft position . I don't give a shit if we end up drafting 14th over all just hit on the pick you have .

Fair comment... but I would add that "hitting" on a draft pick is Scott Laughton.

Giroux was beyond that - they found a gem at his draft position.

So, if the Flyers just "hit" on their picks, then yes, draft position is absolutely key for "hitting" on players that should be at a very high level. And those guys are usually in the top 10, but really top 5.

They also need to find more gems... other than Giroux, who is there? Ghost is absolutely one. Anyone else? Hart? I think he was already considered the best goalie of the draft. I like Lindblom and he turned out great for a 5th rounder, but he's a middling player that you can find with enough regularity.

We need one or two major steals like a Brayden Point, Sebastian Aho, Nikita Kucherov, Ondrej Palat.

Flyers just haven't done that at all, really. TK was a relative gem for his draft position, but he's nowhere near the guys I just mentioned.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, we know.

We're the ones that have said that the team has been bad for years and the assholes driving the bus are the ones that lit it on fire. We're not the ones that constantly defend everything that this organization touches.

I'm the one who identified Holmgren as the main culprit.

The only decision of consequence was trading for and extending Risto, which I disliked as much as the rest of you.

The rest, inconsequential, the real problem was Hextall's drafts and Holmgren insisting in 2019 to be competitive.

Duchene or Hayes, the result would have been similar. Driven by Holmgren's mandate, with Patrick AWOL, not adding a center the summer of 2019 meant you might as well clean house and hire a HC for the rebuild, not a "win now" guy like AV.

Niskanen and Braun had little impact long-term, Braun cost a 2nd and 3rd, got them a 3rd and whatever they get this TDL.
Even Ellis, on LTIR is more of an inconvenience, Patrick and Myers are marginal.

You could have gotten value in 2018 if you cleaned house, by 2021, with the COVID cap and age, only G and Couts had value, and trading Couts would have required Scott over ruling his advisors and committing to a rebuild. Fat chance.

Thank god they hired Torts, the best thing he's done is make it clear they're rebuilding, saying it to the media, giving the FO nowhere to hide from the truth. Four years too late, but hopefully this means the end of the influence of certain senior advisors.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I'm the one who identified Holmgren as the main culprit.

The only decision of consequence was trading for and extending Risto, which I disliked as much as the rest of you.

The rest, inconsequential, the real problem was Hextall's drafts and Holmgren insisting in 2019 to be competitive.

Duchene or Hayes, the result would have been similar. Driven by Holmgren's mandate, with Patrick AWOL, not adding a center the summer of 2019 meant you might as well clean house and hire a HC for the rebuild, not a "win now" guy like AV.

Niskanen and Braun had little impact long-term, Braun cost a 2nd and 3rd, got them a 3rd and whatever they get this TDL.
Even Ellis, on LTIR is more of an inconvenience, Patrick and Myers are marginal.

You could have gotten value in 2018 if you cleaned house, by 2021, with the COVID cap and age, only G and Couts had value, and trading Couts would have required Scott over ruling his advisors and committing to a rebuild. Fat chance.

Thank god they hired Torts, the best thing he's done is make it clear they're rebuilding, saying it to the media, giving the FO nowhere to hide from the truth. Four years too late, but hopefully this means the end of the influence of certain senior advisors.

Holmgren was A culprit. He was not and is not THE culprit, no matter how many times that you say that he is.

Again, being given a "win now" mandate and coming up with the results that Fletcher has done is an indictment on Fletcher no matter how many times you deny it.

No, this is not me saying that Fletcher is the so called main culprit.

EDIT: You defended ALL of these teams for years. What changed?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Their on ice shooting percentage as a team is in the 9% range already at all strengths. That’s essentially a median range. When the ice is tilted against you on almost a game per basis in terms of shots, chances, etc. it’s not really surprising you goal totals look bad. Hopefully for our sake Zac MacEwen can carry his 17.65% shooting all year!

 

[flyers0909]

I'm sure picking 17 times in the last 3 years (6 picks in the first 3 rounds) isn't something that will have long term consequences.

 

[BiggE]

Fair comment... but I would add that "hitting" on a draft pick is Scott Laughton.

Giroux was beyond that - they found a gem at his draft position.

So, if the Flyers just "hit" on their picks, then yes, draft position is absolutely key for "hitting" on players that should be at a very high level. And those guys are usually in the top 10, but really top 5.

They also need to find more gems... other than Giroux, who is there? Ghost is absolutely one. Anyone else? Hart? I think he was already considered the best goalie of the draft. I like Lindblom and he turned out great for a 5th rounder, but he's a middling player that you can find with enough regularity.

We need one or two major steals like a Brayden Point, Sebastian Aho, Nikita Kucherov, Ondrej Palat.

Flyers just haven't done that at all, really. TK was a relative gem for his draft position, but he's nowhere near the guys I just mentioned.

I think their last 2 true late round seals were:
Hextall 6th round 1982 and Tocchet, 6th round 1983. They’ve had some good 2nd and 3rd round hits since then, but nothing in the late rounds even close to those 2

 

[PALE PWNR]

This team is going to have to move on from JVR, Atkinson, Couts in any case, the same way they moved on from Giroux.
The rebuild is going to take 3-5 years, Holmgren blew two windows, after the Carter/Richards trade and after the 2018 implosion.
Now while they have built solid young depth, they need to add 3-4 top players to be a truly competitive team.
Hopefully, Gauthier will be one, but they need more.

The only young top 6 forwards are Farabee and TK,
Not sure any other forwards will develop to that level, Frost unlikely, Brink??? Foerster ???
Gauthier staying at center would help, but a top young center is a priority.
Plug in a couple guys at the top, and they have the depth (Frost, Allison, Tippett, Desnoyers, Cates, etc.) to fill out a forward group.

At least on defense they have a core in their prime years and some young D-men with potential.

You can whine all you want about this season, but this situation is the result of a decades' worth of short-sighted decision making.

Have you seen the light all of a sudden? This is what people have been arguing with you about for years at this point

 

[Striiker]

I'm sure picking 17 times in the last 3 years (6 picks in the first 3 rounds) isn't something that will have long term consequences.

13th overall for the worst D in the league

A pick in the 30s to get rid of a top pair D

Another pick in the 30s to add DeAngelo

It almost seems like intentional sabotage.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Flyers leading goal scorers:

Konecny, 4
Laughton, 3
MacEwen, 3
Farabee, 3

Yikes.

We are the best def team tho, Torts effect.

Unless you look at stats, we are the bottom of league at that too.

Farmer at this best > Fisto at his best, am I wrong with this thinking ?

Farmer at his worst > Fisto at his worst .

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren was A culprit. He was not and is not THE culprit, no matter how many times that you say that he is.

Again, being given a "win now" mandate and coming up with the results that Fletcher has done is an indictment on Fletcher no matter how many times you deny it.

No, this is not me saying that Fletcher is the so called main culprit.

Fletcher could have done a better job, but no one could have done a good job.
Because the assets weren't there to reload (unless you did a Zito and traded 3-4 1st rd picks), and the FO wasn't willing to rebuild.

No HC was going to get much more out of the 2019-20 than AV, a better coach might have avoided a meltdown in 2021-22, but it would have simply left the team mired in mediocrity as the top players aged out. At least AV got us a top 5 pick!

They had to sign a center in the summer of 2019 with Patrick damaged goods, or accept they weren't competitive - the only options were Hayes or Duchene.

It's been like watching a slow motion car crash, that you saw coming once they ran the stop sign.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Flyers have the 2nd least goals scored. 28 in 11 games. Only St Louis is worse, but they've also played 2 games less than the Flyers. 3rd worst GF per game overall. Torts hockey everybody! Offense won't be high but you can sure as shit expect padded goalie stats. Not saying Hart hasn't been great, but it's Torts hockey. Offense is tertiary to him.

It might have a little to do with them not being a very good team, plus having Couturier, Atkinson, and JVR out of the lineup.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Fletcher could have done a better job, but no one could have done a good job.
Because the assets weren't there to reload (unless you did a Zito and traded 3-4 1st rd picks), and the FO wasn't willing to rebuild.

No HC was going to get much more out of the 2019-20 than AV, a better coach might have avoided a meltdown in 2021-22, but it would have simply left the team mired in mediocrity as the top players aged out. At least AV got us a top 5 pick!

They had to sign a center in the summer of 2019 with Patrick damaged goods, or accept they weren't competitive - the only options were Hayes or Duchene.

It's been like watching a slow motion car crash, that you saw coming once they ran the stop sign.

The job that Fletcher has done isn't even in the same hemisphere as being close to something that could be considered decent let alone good. That's how bad he has been. He's a failure and he always has been.

You still continue to go to bat for him and the franchise though. Although, that has subsided recently just as it has EVERY single time that a coach or a GM was shown the door. You see the off ramp and you're attempting to take it but you're going to be called on the bullshit.

No HC was going to get much more out of the 19-20 team than AV? Where do you come up with this shit? AV was a dog shit coach and you had this explained to you countless times and yet you refused to see it. We have seen you slobber over that team for YEARS. Where did this sudden realization come from?

The thing is that you didn't see this slow motion car crash coming. Alright, maybe that's not true, you maybe saw it after they ran the stop sign but the rest of us saw it as the car was a mile away as sparks were flying because the car was missing a tire as we were constantly told "let's just see what happens."

P.S. Bob Clarke is the main culprit, in case you were wondering. He hired Holmgren and he hired Fletcher. HE is the master of puppets.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

But he's right handed so

not one person here could have called this..

not one...

 

[flyerslducks]

P.S. Bob Clarke is the main culprit, in case you were wondering. He hired Holmgren and he hired Fletcher. HE is the master of puppets.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Ah, well we have our answer.

He's just absolute dog shit at the sport of hockey.

That surely came out of nowhere.

I wonder what Chuck has to say about this. Cannot be happy Torts called out his golden child

 

[Curufinwe]

Atkinson isn't on IR or LTIR, so they can open a roster spot for Brown just by putting Cam on one of those.

 

[bennysflyers16]

not one person here could have called this..

not one...

And to think the defense that has been tabled for Risto over last 18 months !!

LOVE the team being emmbarassed !!