2022/23 Roster Thread XII: The Twelfth Night, a comedy play

[Beef Invictus]

The moronic “dog shit” move would have been to bring back Giroux.

Why should a bottom tier team spend $6.5M of its cap for 3 years on a player who will be 35-37?

Because that's better then paying Risto a similar amount for longer.

 

[freakydallas13]

The moronic “dog shit” move would have been to bring back Giroux.

Why should a bottom tier team spend $6.5M of its cap for 3 years on a player who will be 35-37?

Why should a bottom tier team make any of the big moves it has in the last 1.5 years (Hayes, Risto, TDA)? Instead of trading picks to bring in that pos TDA they could have used that money to resign their longtime captain and best player.

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't think Hayes is like the other two. He only cost a 5th, and center was definite position of need with Patrick's career effectively over as of March, 2019.

And he has 117 points in 187 games so far, almost halfway thru his contract.

 

[deadhead]

Flyers didn't commit to a rebuild until they hired Torts, so Hughes is a year ahead.

7/7/22 Romanov (21) and 4th (#98) for NYI 1st (#13)
7/7/22 #13, #66 for Dach
so in effect, Romanov, #66, #98 for Dach
3/21/22 Lehkonen (26) for 2nd (#62), Justin Barron
3/21/22 Kulak for 2nd (#62)
3/16/22 Chariot for FLA 2023 1st
2/14/22 Toffoli for Calgary 2022 1st (#26), Heineman (21)

So after the dust cleared, he traded a 21 year D-man, 26 year old forward, three veterans and got Dach, #26 and Florida's 2023 1st rd pick.
Montreal's current lineup includes Hoffman (33), Gallagher (30), Dadonov (33), Savard (32), Wideman (33). and Allen (32) in goal.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Just to be clear, the Flyers have yet to commit to a rebuild. They are in this position against their will. It is not by choice.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[deadhead]

Why should a bottom tier team make any of the big moves it has in the last 1.5 years (Hayes, Risto, TDA)? Instead of trading picks to bring in that pos TDA they could have used that money to resign their longtime captain and best player.

They should have done neither, but Holmgren committed the team to a win now strategy in 2018.
And Scott was talking about an aggressive reload as late as last January.
This wasn't Fletcher's idea, this was an organizational (i.e. consensus) decision to try and compete.
He was hired to implement that decision, he didn't make that decision.

Just be happy Fletcher didn't trade 3 or 4 1st rd picks pursuing that strategy. It's been done (NYR, Panthers).

Which is why I'm so happy Torts is here, because he has put the kibbosh on any talk of competing or aggressive reloading.

And I thought the Flyers were going to sign him.

Brooks is out, and we want veteran centers in LHV, because all our top forward prospects there are wings, other than Desnoyers.
Marody is better suited to RW than center, given his lack of speed.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

They should have done neither, but Holmgren committed the team to a win now strategy in 2018.
And Scott was talking about an aggressive reload as late as last January.
This wasn't Fletcher's idea, this was an organizational (i.e. consensus) decision to try and compete.
He was hired to implement that decision, he didn't make that decision.

Just be happy Fletcher didn't trade 3 or 4 1st rd picks pursuing that strategy. It's been done (NYR, Panthers).

Which is why I'm so happy Torts is here, because he has put the kibbosh on any talk of competing or aggressive reloading.

Chuck Fletcher was given a win now mandate and this is what he produced. He's a failure.

Are we really comparing the Panthers situation to that of the Flyers? Give me a break. The situations aren't even remotely similar and you know that.

And I thought the Flyers were going to sign him.

Brooks is out, and we want veteran centers in LHV, because all our top forward prospects there are wings, other than Desnoyers.
Marody is better suited to RW than center, given his lack of speed.

You do know this is the prerequisite to that, right?

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

The moronic “dog shit” move would have been to bring back Giroux.

Why should a bottom tier team spend $6.5M of its cap for 3 years on a player who will be 35-37?

Didn't stop them from spending on Risto, trading multiple picks for Tony D, signing Nic D for 4 years, etc. Selfishly, I would have loved to have G back, but I'm glad he's gone for his own sake. His prime was wasted here,and regardless of how you want to compare him to elite players in the league, he was still the best player this franchise has had since Lindros.

TlDr: The fact that they were in a position where trading him was the right move is the biggest indictment on management's performance.

 

[deadhead]

Chuck Fletcher was given a win now mandate and this is what he produced. He's a failure.

Are we really comparing the Panthers situation to that of the Flyers? Give me a break. The situations aren't even remotely similar and you know that.

You do know this is the prerequisite to that, right?

In Holmgren's (and the FO) mind the situations were similar, Holmgren (and the rest of the FO) must have truly believed they were only a few moves from being a contending team. And that's all that matters (because they acted on that delusion).

And Fletcher delivered at low cost, trading Gudas, a 2nd and 3rd rd pick, and signing Hayes (replacing damaged goods Patrick) got them to the second round.

Then it fell apart, as they got exposed when Hart imploded.
Even then 14th in xGF% in 2020-21 makes them a marginal playoff contender with average or better goalies.
But not close to a top 8 team.

After that, the clock struck midnight, and the coachmen became rats once again.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Flyers didn't commit to a rebuild until they hired Torts, so Hughes is a year ahead.

7/7/22 Romanov (21) and 4th (#98) for NYI 1st (#13)
7/7/22 #13, #66 for Dach
so in effect, Romanov, #66, #98 for Dach
3/21/22 Lehkonen (26) for 2nd (#62), Justin Barron
3/21/22 Kulak for 2nd (#62)
3/16/22 Chariot for FLA 2023 1st
2/14/22 Toffoli for Calgary 2022 1st (#26), Heineman (21)

So after the dust cleared, he traded a 21 year D-man, 26 year old forward, three veterans and got Dach, #26 and Florida's 2023 1st rd pick.
Montreal's current lineup includes Hoffman (33), Gallagher (30), Dadonov (33), Savard (32), Wideman (33). and Allen (32) in goal.

They haven't committed to a rebuild since hiring Torts.

As evidenced by the complete lack of "rebuild" type moves you assured us we'd be seeing.

 

[Beef Invictus]

In Holmgren's (and the FO) mind the situations were similar, Holmgren (and the rest of the FO) must have truly believed they were only a few moves from being a contending team. And that's all that matters (because they acted on that delusion).

And Fletcher delivered at low cost, trading Gudas, a 2nd and 3rd rd pick, and signing Hayes (replacing damaged goods Patrick) got them to the second round.

Then it fell apart, as they got exposed when Hart imploded.
Even then 14th in xGF% in 2020-21 makes them a marginal playoff contender with average or better goalies.
But not close to a top 8 team.

After that, the clock struck midnight, and the coachmen became rats once again.

Holmgren isn't calling the shots. Clarke was. That's why Holmgren hired Fletcher at Clarke's suggestion. That's why Hextall was fired because Clarke got angry at not being catered to.

 

[deadhead]

They haven't committed to a rebuild since hiring Torts.

As evidenced by the complete lack of "rebuild" type moves you assured us we'd be seeing.

What kind of moves could they make?
Other than trading Provorov, etc., you can't move Hayes, Ellis, Couts, Atkinson.
And it doesn't make sense to make moves until Torts has a few months to evaluate personnel and decide who he thinks are keepers.

Rebuilds aren't done overnight, nor do teams rush all their prospects and dump all their veterans the first year of a rebuild.
Don't look for Instant gratification if you're a fan of a rebuilding team.

Right now it's about player evaluation first, then working in prospects second.

Holmgren isn't calling the shots. Clarke was. That's why Holmgren hired Fletcher at Clarke's suggestion. That's why Hextall was fired because Clarke got angry at not being catered to.

Doesn't matter, though I suspect they were on the same page, doubt Clarke could tell Vice President Holmgren what to do (lacked the authority, and does Holmgren strike you as the deferential type?). And it was clear that Homgren was unhappy with Hextall.

Either way, they were delusional.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

The moronic “dog shit” move would have been to bring back Giroux.

Why should a bottom tier team spend $6.5M of its cap for 3 years on a player who will be 35-37?

The moronic dog shit move was signing a bottom 5 defender to a $25.5 million dollar contract. At least Giroux could have helped in player in development and still play a pivotal role. Stinktolainen can't even play top four minutes because he's as dumb as a bag of hammers, but UGH.....BIG HITZ....is what the shit stain is supposed to do and he can't even do that well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What kind of moves could they make?
Other than trading Provorov, etc., you can't move Hayes, Ellis, Couts, Atkinson.
And it doesn't make sense to make moves until Torts has a few months to evaluate personnel and decide who he thinks are keepers.

Rebuilds aren't done overnight, nor do teams rush all their prospects and dump all their veterans the first year of a rebuild.
Don't look for Instant gratification if you're a fan of a rebuilding team.

Right now it's about player evaluation first, then working in prospects second.


Doesn't matter, though I suspect they were on the same page, doubt Clarke could tell Vice President Holmgren what to do (lacked the authority, and does Holmgren strike you as the deferential type?). And it was clear that Homgren was unhappy with Hextall.

Either way, they were delusional.

For starters, not making Seeler, Braun, and Deslauriers roster staples. You do know they signed Deslauriers after the rebuild began, right? That's the opposite of a rebuilding move.

They could also stop burying their more promising players and forcing them into situations where the chance of success is minimal and then blame them for it, while maximizing exposure of the bad players to the detriment of the team.

Holmgren is obviously the deferential type, since he deferred to Clarke on both matters. Homer has been pretty open about not liking management and being checked out for ages; his love was scouting. Clarke has been quite open about being thoroughly involved.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

What kind of moves could they make?
Other than trading Provorov, etc., you can't move Hayes, Ellis, Couts, Atkinson.
And it doesn't make sense to make moves until Torts has a few months to evaluate personnel and decide who he thinks are keepers.

Rebuilds aren't done overnight, nor do teams rush all their prospects and dump all their veterans the first year of a rebuild.
Don't look for Instant gratification if you're a fan of a rebuilding team.

Right now it's about player evaluation first, then working in prospects second.


Doesn't matter, though I suspect they were on the same page, doubt Clarke could tell Vice President Holmgren what to do (lacked the authority, and does Holmgren strike you as the deferential type?). And it was clear that Homgren was unhappy with Hextall.

Either way, they were delusional.

So let me get this straight... Clarke can't tell the VP (who he hired) what to do but the GM has been multiple coaches patsies?

They acted on the delusion that they were close, so what? Fletcher failed at every single aspect of putting the team over the top under that delusion. He failed. He's a failure. What the people above him said to do is irrelevant. He failed.

Not to mention that it was a delusion that you yourself fell for despite being told hundreds of times that it was a delusion but that's neither here nor there.

 

[deadhead]

For starters, not making Seeler, Braun, and Deslauriers roster staples. You do know they signed Deslauriers after the rebuild began, right? That's the opposite of a rebuilding move.

They could also stop burying their more promising players and forcing them into situations where the chance of success is minimal and then blame them for it, while maximizing exposure of the bad players to the detriment of the team.

Holmgren is obviously the deferential type, since he deferred to Clarke on both matters. Homer has been pretty open about not liking management and being checked out for ages; his love was scouting. Clarke has been quite open about being thoroughly involved.

Deslauriers was an attitude move, whether it works . . . but he's not a major commitment, easily buried.

Braun was a veteran RHD, good mentor and possible TDL trade bait (got a 3rd last year, if healthy and playing like he has, could land a 3rd or 4th this year). The kind of moves rebuilding teams should make, sign low cost veterans you can flip at the TDL.

Seeler has been solid, he's a placeholder, but York lost the job, Seeler didn't take it. If he keeps playing well, he may also be flipped at the TDL, playoff teams like experienced veteran D-men in case of injury. I mean Hagg got a 6th!

Frost is the only player "buried" - and he's been the 3C all season, his line played the same minutes as the 2nd line last game, whine about being saddled with Bellows, but Cates was saddled with MacEwen.

There's a revolving door with LHV, by the end of the year half the LHV roster will get a cameo or longer stint with the Flyers.
All about player evaluation, for both the short and long-run.

 

[deadhead]

So let me get this straight... Clarke can't tell the VP (who he hired) what to do but the GM has been multiple coaches patsies?

They acted on the delusion that they were close, so what? Fletcher failed at every single aspect of putting the team over the top under that delusion. He failed. He's a failure. What the people above him said to do is irrelevant. He failed.

Not to mention that it was a delusion that you yourself fell for despite being told hundreds of times that it was a delusion but that's neither here nor there.

If Hart continued to play at his 2020 level (which he is dong this season), they might have had a Montreal like run - given there was only a 2-3 year window with G, Voracek, JVR, it wasn't a crazy gamble, it almost worked the first year, then Hart imploded and the dream was over.

The alternative was dump everyone in the summer of 2019 and restart the rebuild - but Holmgren (Clarke) didn't have the stomach for it and I doubt Scott wanted to start his reign by saying "we f---d up with Hextall."

Had they known COVID was coming, they wouldn't have given Hayes that contract and would have dumped Voracek and JVR lickety split.

 

[Curufinwe]

I doubt Ottawa are this desperate, but I'd trade a 2023 3rd to move him for Zaitsev.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

If Hart continued to play at his 2020 level (which he is dong this season), they might have had a Montreal like run - given there was only a 2-3 year window with G, Voracek, JVR, it wasn't a crazy gamble, it almost worked the first year, then Hart imploded and the dream was over.

The alternative was dump everyone in the summer of 2019 and restart the rebuild - but Holmgren (Clarke) didn't have the stomach for it and I doubt Scott wanted to start his reign by saying "we f---d up with Hextall."

Had they known COVID was coming, they wouldn't have given Hayes that contract and would have dumped Voracek and JVR lickety split.

The alternative was to not acquire players like Rasmus Ristolainen, Nate Thompson, Chris Stewart, and Co.

Spare be the "it doesn't matter" crap.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Deslauriers was an attitude move, whether it works . . . but he's not a major commitment, easily buried.

Braun was a veteran RHD, good mentor and possible TDL trade bait (got a 3rd last year, if healthy and playing like he has, could land a 3rd or 4th this year). The kind of moves rebuilding teams should make, sign low cost veterans you can flip at the TDL.

Seeler has been solid, he's a placeholder, but York lost the job, Seeler didn't take it. If he keeps playing well, he may also be flipped at the TDL, playoff teams like experienced veteran D-men in case of injury.

Frost is the only player "buried" - and he's been the 3C all season, his line played the same minutes as the 2nd line last game, whine about being saddled with Bellows, but Cates was saddled with MacEwen.

There's a revolving door with LHV, by the end of the year half the LHV roster will get a cameo or longer stint with the Flyers.
All about player evaluation, for both the short and long-run.

Hard be a mentor when the youth can't even play because you're there. How does that work?

There is no revolving door. Hence the waiver pickups to prevent them from having to call anyone up for as long as possible.

They aren't rebuilding.

Attitude moves are incompetent. And this one has already failed utterly.

 

[Curufinwe]

Fletcher's numbers are MUCH worse in Philly than they were in Minnesota

.567 in 704 GP (2.63 GF/GP - 2.62 GA/GP) in Minnesota

.505 in 279 GP (2.87 GF/GP - 3.29 GA/GP) in Philly

His Flyer teams have been characterized by being awful defensively, even though that's all he talks about improving.

 

[deadhead]

The alternative was to not acquire players like Rasmus Ristolainen, Nate Thompson, Chris Stewart, and Co.

Spare be the "it doesn't matter" crap.

Stewart??? That nothing burger (I'm sure his 124 minutes kept the FLyers from the Cup).
Thompson??? He sucked, but so did Vorobyev and Bunnaman.
I never get worked over low cost mistakes that are easily waived and buried.

Risto is a different matter, the one major piece of stupidity, wrong player, wrong time, wrong payment, wrong extension.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Stewart??? That nothing burger (I'm sure his 124 minutes kept the FLyers from the Cup).
Thompson??? He sucked, but so did Vorobyev and Bunnaman.
I never get worked over low cost mistakes that are easily waived and buried.

Risto is a different matter, the one major piece of stupidity, wrong player, wrong time, wrong payment, wrong extension.

Stewart is far from a nothing burger because the idiotic thought processes behind bringing him in still determine the roster, and those idiots made him a development coach. Gee, I wonder why skill stagnates.

When you're in a coal mine and the canary dies, you don't say "that's a nothing burger, it's just a canary." You get the f*** out of that situation or fix it before it explodes.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Stewart??? That nothing burger (I'm sure his 124 minutes kept the FLyers from the Cup).
Thompson??? He sucked, but so did Vorobyev and Bunnaman.
I never get worked over low cost mistakes that are easily waived and buried.

Risto is a different matter, the one major piece of stupidity, wrong player, wrong time, wrong payment, wrong extension.

So you're not going to spare me the "it doesn't matter" crap, thanks.

Every turd that Fletcher has produced has created this mountain of shit. It's the process that is the issue and not the specific instances but this has been explained countless times.

It's unavoidable for anyone that doesn't live in fantasy land.