2022/23 Roster Thread XI: Konecny, So Hot Right Now, Konecny

[prototypical4thliner]

Didn't say it was a good idea, but keeping him wouldn't have made them much better either.
The problem was they weren't willing to eat $15M and declare that they were rebuilding - and that came from the top.

Which raises an interesting question, did they decide to rebuild when they hired Torts, since the thought was they were hiring him to be more competitive, or did Torts basically stage a palace coup after he was hired and made it clear this was a rebuilding season?

But they would have been better. That’s, like, the idea..

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

But they would have been better. That’s, like, the idea..

Moves like that are why the Flyers have been spinning wheels for over a decade now. They constantly always land on the bigger buyer beware players around the league & invest considerably in the said player(s).

 

[deadhead]

I'm a strong believer in "path dependence" as a major influence in decision making by organizations and societies. All one has to do is read some business history to see this repeated again and again, if it controls major corporations, why should sports teams be immune?

That is, due to sunk costs and uncertainty, once an initial decision is made (aggressive reload instead of restarting the rebuild in 2018), it constrains future decisions until a dead end is reached and the decision makers are forced to move to a new path.

Part of the problem is that you often get positive affirmation that you've chosen the correct path (2019-20) before realizing you're lost in the thickets and brambles. Then the problem is your past decisions have limited your future options.

The reason I primarily blame Holmgren were three decisions:
1) not rebuilding after the Carter/Richards trades
2) hiring Hextall, but not giving him carte blanche (or at least encouragement ) to do a full rebuild
3) hiring Fletcher with a "win now" mandate

These three decisions determined the Flyers path from 2011 to 2025 or so.

Fletcher may not have made optimal decisions, but given the past decisions (that led to a paucity of top talent in the pipeline), and the mandate under which he was hired, no GM would have done much better.

 

[Hextallent63]

Fletcher may have been able to get some or no value back for Gostisbehere with retention, however he wanted to get rid of his entire cap hit because he needed to fit in Risto.

Also because he’s a shitty negotiator.

the shitty thing with gost was how they treated him for a couple seasons before they traded him. they destroyed any value that he DID have. i have watched quite alot of him since the trade and he has looked a hell of alot better then the shit we have thrown out on d after he left.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

the shitty thing with gost was how they treated him for a couple seasons before they traded him. they destroyed any value that he DID have. i have watched quite alot of him since the trade and he has looked a hell of alot better then the shit we have thrown out on d after he left.

not one person here could have called that..

not one...

 

[Hextallent63]

Ghost is scoring, but he's not playing at a high level, though it's hard to tell how much is Ghost, how much is playing on a terrible team (though the same could be said for TDA on the current Flyers? )

28.65% xGF, -3.56 xGFrel in 3 games this season, after posting 41.87%, +0.79 last season.
His scoring this season is primarily unsustainable shooting on the PP (5 goals in 15 shots), zero at ES.

he has made his mistakes, just like everyone does but he hasnt been a liability on that back end at all.

 

[Curufinwe]

The reason I primarily blame Holmgren were three decisions:
1) not rebuilding after the Carter/Richards trades

He turned those players into Couturier, Voracek, Schenn and Simmonds.

 

[freakydallas13]

Didn't say it was a good idea, but keeping him wouldn't have made them much better either.

That's the whole point of people bringing Ghost up. The team was no better (worse, most people would argue) after trading Ghost, a first, 2 seconds, Hagg, and a 7th, so why did they make a move at all? It was a supreme waste of assets chiefly for the purpose of placating a coach who had one foot out the door and was fired months later.

If trading Ghost and all those assets didn't make the team any better, then they are bad trades and accomplished nothing other than jettisoning picks, players, and capspace.

 

[Rebels57]

That's the whole point of people bringing Ghost up. The team was no better (worse, most people would argue) after trading Ghost, a first, 2 seconds, Hagg, and a 7th, so why did they make a move at all? It was a supreme waste of assets chiefly for the purpose of placating a coach who had one foot out the door and was fired months later.

If trading Ghost and all those assets didn't make the team any better, then they are bad trades and accomplished nothing other than jettisoning picks, players, and capspace.

There is no argument. Their record since those trades does not lie.

 

[deadhead]

He turned those players into Couturier, Voracek, Schenn and Simmonds.

My point was he had a young core, then spent 3 years patching a team, trying to be competitive, before turning over a mess to Hextall.
If he had committed to a rebuild after the trade, he could have built a true contender within a few seasons.

 

[flyersnorth]

My point was he had a young core, then spent 3 years patching a team, trying to be competitive, before turning over a mess to Hextall.
If he had committed to a rebuild after the trade, he could have built a true contender within a few seasons.

Isn't that exactly what Fletcher is doing? Except he will be turning over this mess to Briere.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

[Curufinwe]

My point was he had a young core, then spent 3 years patching a team, trying to be competitive, before turning over a mess to Hextall.
If he had committed to a rebuild after the trade, he could have built a true contender within a few seasons.

What does committing to a rebuild mean? Who else was he supposed to trade?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

That's the whole point of people bringing Ghost up. The team was no better (worse, most people would argue) after trading Ghost, a first, 2 seconds, Hagg, and a 7th, so why did they make a move at all? It was a supreme waste of assets chiefly for the purpose of placating a coach who had one foot out the door and was fired months later.

If trading Ghost and all those assets didn't make the team any better, then they are bad trades and accomplished nothing other than jettisoning picks, players, and capspace.

I don’t care that they traded Gostisbehere necessarily for what they did. But the best you could do with that newfound flexibility was sink more assets in Rasmus Ristolainen & later sign him to a long term extension to boot?

If you’re trading Gostisbehere in a move like that it should be for an upgrade which didn’t happen. They actually went backwards.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Didn't say it was a good idea, but keeping him wouldn't have made them much better either.
The problem was they weren't willing to eat $15M and declare that they were rebuilding - and that came from the top.

Which raises an interesting question, did they decide to rebuild when they hired Torts, since the thought was they were hiring him to be more competitive, or did Torts basically stage a palace coup after he was hired and made it clear this was a rebuilding season?

Ghost over risto does make this team better, also give us more cap flexibility and a shorter term......so in every single way ghost was always a better option

 

[Striiker]

I don’t care that they traded Gostisbehere necessarily for what they did.

Traitor

 

[Flyerfan4life]

That's the whole point of people bringing Ghost up. The team was no better (worse, most people would argue) after trading Ghost, a first, 2 seconds, Hagg, and a 7th, so why did they make a move at all? It was a supreme waste of assets chiefly for the purpose of placating a coach who had one foot out the door and was fired months later.

If trading Ghost and all those assets didn't make the team any better, then they are bad trades and accomplished nothing other than jettisoning picks, players, and capspace.

perfectly onbrand..

be a f***ing Flyer....

 

[deadhead]

What does committing to a rebuild mean? Who else was he supposed to trade?

After losing in the second round 4-1 in the 2012 playoffs, your best player gone (Pronger), and an aging roster, time for a reality check

That 2012-13 team had Jagr (39) Kimmo (36), Briere (34), Hartnell (29), Bryz (31).
So Holmgren goes out and adds Fedotenko (34), Gagne (32), Knuble (40), Foster (31).
Could have built around Schenn (21), Couts (20), G (25), Voracek (23), SImmonds (24), Read (26), JVR (23)

6/22/12 trades Bob for a 2nd, (2) 4th
6/23/12 trades JVR (23) for L Schenn
4/13/13 trades 3rd for Mason
6/12/13 trades 4th for Streit (36)
4/4/14 trades 2nd, 3rd for AMac then gives him 6x5 contract.
4/5/14 trades Mezaros for 3rd

 

[gertbfrobe16]

sounds like more propaganda to me

 

[Curufinwe]

He didn't need to rebuild because that team still had a lot of very good young players, much better than what they have after four years of Feltcher. He just made three horrible personnel decisions with Bryz, LSchenn and MacDonald. If those were good players instead of poor players, their ages at the time of acquisition wouldn't have been a problem because there was already a great young core of forwards to build around.

At the start of the 2013-14 season the Flyers had:

Read - 27
Giroux - 25
Simmonds - 25
Voracek - 24
Schenn - 22
Couturier - 21
Laughton - 19

 

[deadhead]

He didn't need to rebuild. That team still had a lot of very good young players. He just made three horrible personnel decisions with Bryz, LSchenn and MacDonald. If those were good players instead of poor players, their ages at the time of acquisition wouldn't have been a problem.

He needed to reload, the young players were too young, the old players too old, we've seen plenty of franchises do this, shed some of the older players, then flip picks to get younger players, maybe struggle for one season, add a high draft pick and then back on top.

That team was built around Pronger, once Pronger went down, he should have shifted gears.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

He didn't need to rebuild because that team still had a lot of very good young players, much better than what they have after four years of Feltcher. He just made three horrible personnel decisions with Bryz, LSchenn and MacDonald. If those were good players instead of poor players, their ages at the time of acquisition wouldn't have been a problem because there was already a great young core of forwards to build around.

At the start of the 2013-14 season the Flyers had:

Read - 27
Giroux - 25
Simmonds - 25
Voracek - 24
Schenn - 22
Couturier - 21
Laughton - 19

wait ! Laughton has been around that long ?

wow....

 

[Curufinwe]

The only young player here who was too young was Laughton. The rest were all in prime position to contribute, and they did.

Read - 27 (40 points in 75 games)
Giroux - 25 (86 points in 82 games)
Simmonds - 25 (60 points in 82 games)
Voracek - 24 (62 points in 82 games)
Schenn - 22 (41 points in 82 games)
Couturier - 21 (39 points in 82 games)
Laughton - 19 (Still in Junior)

 

[deadhead]

Couts and Schenn were a couple years away from being top 6, Read was always a middle six guy, Laughton wouldn't be a full time player until he returned from the AHL at 23.
The depth was guys like McGinn and Rinaldo.

Trying to build a defense around Coburn, Grossman, L Schenn with Kimmo aging out . . . then his solution is to add Streit and AMac.

 

[Tripod]

He didn't need to rebuild because that team still had a lot of very good young players, much better than what they have after four years of Feltcher. He just made three horrible personnel decisions with Bryz, LSchenn and MacDonald. If those were good players instead of poor players, their ages at the time of acquisition wouldn't have been a problem because there was already a great young core of forwards to build around.

At the start of the 2013-14 season the Flyers had:

Read - 27
Giroux - 25
Simmonds - 25
Voracek - 24
Schenn - 22
Couturier - 21
Laughton - 19

The lack of D is quite noticeable.

But yeah, especially after 2012, no way were they going to rebuild coming off a 103 pt season and 2nd rd exit. It's delusional to think so.

 

[Curufinwe]

For comparison, these are the Flyers current presumed top 6 forwards aged under 30, and their most recent seasons:

Laughton - 28 (30 points in 67 games)
Konency - 25 (52 points in 79 games)
Cates - 23 (9 points in 16 games)
Frost - 23 (16 points in 55 games)
Tippett - 23 (21 points in 63 games)
Farabee - 22 (34 points in 63 games)