2022-23 Roster Discussion

surixon

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Who's your shutdown defensive zone centre? Stenlund? Max Domi? The Jets need good defensive players to be a good defensive team. If only there was a commitment to being good defensively team wide. I don't think Adam Lowry is easy to score against, that hasn't changed. If he could get Kuhlman off his wing, for Appleton, he might get some chances. He was scoring back when Harkins was on his line, some 33 games ago.

I like @WolfHouse's idea of bringing up Heinola though. I was watching the 1985 Jets vs. the Oilers last night, without Ducky, Bowness behind the bench and Arniel in the lineup, and they gave the Oilers a run in a couple of games, running 7 d-men.

Heinola would improve a PP that is running at about 16% right now. When goals are an issue.

Lowry isn't shutting anyone down that is the point. Say what you will about the defensive ability of our top 6 but every single one of them sans Wheeler (who is breaking even) have a positive 5 on 5 goal differential.

Perfetti leads the way with a 60 GF%
Dubois has a 56 GF%
Scheifele a 53 GF%
Conner and Ehlers 52 GF%
Wheeler 50 GF%

Our bottom 6 has exactly 1 player with a positive goal differential in Maenalanen with a 52 GF%

Strenulund has 50 GF%
Barron 49 GF%

Then it gets real ugly
Gagner and Thor 45%
Lowry 42%
Appelton 41%
Khulman 33%

So our bottom 6 is absolutely killing this team by getting destroyed in their matchups. Who cares how good their defense is if they are getting outscored. Defense is only good if you out defend your poor scoring touch. That isn't happening here. Our top 6 on the otherhand is doing what they are supposed to be doing and outscoring their not as good defense.
 

gojetsgo

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Nov 1, 2015
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Lowry isn't shutting anyone down that is the point. Say what you will about the defensive ability of our top 6 but every single one of them sans Wheeler (who is breaking even) have a positive 5 on 5 goal differential.

Perfetti leads the way with a 60 GF%
Dubois has a 56 GF%
Scheifele a 53 GF%
Conner and Ehlers 52 GF%
Wheeler 50 GF%

Our bottom 6 has exactly 1 player with a positive goal differential in Maenalanen with a 52 GF%

Strenulund has 50 GF%
Barron 49 GF%

Then it gets real ugly
Gagner and Thor 45%
Lowry 42%
Appelton 41%
Khulman 33%

So our bottom 6 is absolutely killing this team by getting destroyed in their matchups. Who cares how good their defense is if they are getting outscored. Defense is only good if you our defend your poor scoring touch. That isn't happening here. Our top 6 on the otherhand is doing what they have supposed to be doing and outscoring their not as good defense.
replacing our bottom six players will only help this team, they don't score, they don't hit, they don't fight, they rarely get good scoring chances and they hardly maintain any sort of zone time
 

surixon

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Jul 12, 2003
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replacing our bottom six players will only help this team, they don't score, they don't hit, they don't fight, they rarely get good scoring chances and they hardly maintain any sort of zone time

Yup they are the more one dimensional then our offensive guys imo. We need 4 outscoring lines and there is only so much the top 6 can do to prop up a hemerging bottom 6. When our top 6 gets cold as it has been lately it really shows.
 
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voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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Lowry isn't shutting anyone down that is the point. Say what you will about the defensive ability of our top 6 but every single one of them sans Wheeler (who is breaking even) have a positive 5 on 5 goal differential.

Perfetti leads the way with a 60 GF%
Dubois has a 56 GF%
Scheifele a 53 GF%
Conner and Ehlers 52 GF%
Wheeler 50 GF%

Our bottom 6 has exactly 1 player with a positive goal differential in Maenalanen with a 52 GF%

Strenulund has 50 GF%
Barron 49 GF%

Then it gets real ugly
Gagner and Thor 45%
Lowry 42%
Appelton 41%
Khulman 33%

So our bottom 6 is absolutely killing this team by getting destroyed in their matchups. Who cares how good their defense is if they are getting outscored. Defense is only good if you out defend your poor scoring touch. That isn't happening here. Our top 6 on the otherhand is doing what they are supposed to be doing and outscoring their not as good defense.
I just wrote it down in shorthand the results in the last 15 games, now 16 games, another in which Lowry didn't get scored on and we lost.

Your GF% doesn't tell you who is getting scored on. Like the Colorado game or the Isles game. The Jersey game I pointed Lowry giving up a goal because Wheeler missed his check.

The top 6 is being outscored regularly in this slump. That's where it is at. Lowry's differential in the last 12 games is 1 goal in the negative...While the PK is doing its job.

Being outshot doesn't mean you are losing games, that's where the analytics lose their validity, because defense first players tend to get outshot, if they start in their own zone. Count the goals Sir, and then come back at me with the same argument.
 

surixon

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Jul 12, 2003
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Winnipeg
I just wrote it down in shorthand the results in the last 15 games, now 16 games, another in which Lowry didn't get scored on and we lost.

Your GF% doesn't tell you who is getting scored on. Like the Colorado game or the Isles game. The Jersey game I pointed Lowry giving up a goal because Wheeler missed his check.

The top 6 is being outscored regularly in this slump. That's where it is at. Lowry's differential in the last 12 games is 1 goal in the negative...While the PK is doing its job.

Being outshot doesn't mean you are losing games, that's where the analytics lose their validity, because defense first players tend to get outshot, if they start in their own zone. Count the goals Sir, and then come back at me with the same argument.

Where exactly are you going with this? I think you misinterpreted the data I put down. I wasnt saying anything about shots. That data isn't based on shots it's based on actual goals.

Lowry is the second worst forward on the team in terms getting outscored. He has a -7 actual goal differential on the ice 5 on 5. Please tell me how that is showing you he is doing his job at neutralizing other teams? The same is true of every other bottom 6 player sans the two i mentioned. They are getting outscored when on the ice (actual goals).

Yes the top 6 has been cold lately which has impacted their actual goal differentials but all its done is highlight just how reliant we are on them winning their matchups. The bottom 6 has largely been an anchor this year.
 
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DRW204

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Dec 26, 2010
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Who's your shutdown defensive zone centre? Stenlund? Max Domi? The Jets need good defensive players to be a good defensive team. If only there was a commitment to being good defensively team wide. I don't think Adam Lowry is easy to score against, that hasn't changed. If he could get Kuhlman off his wing, for Appleton, he might get some chances. He was scoring back when Harkins was on his line, some 33 games ago.

I like @WolfHouse's idea of bringing up Heinola though. I was watching the 1985 Jets vs. the Oilers last night, without Ducky, Bowness behind the bench and Arniel in the lineup, and they gave the Oilers a run in a couple of games, running 7 d-men.

Heinola would improve a PP that is running at about 16% right now. When goals are an issue.

ok he's good defensively what has that gotten us so far? he still is on-ice for more goals against than for at 5v5, & that's with being goaltended by Connor Hellebuyck. so really, that speaks to how underwhelming he and his line have been offensively. no finish, no consistency. and now we're suffering mightily from having these stone-handed players who are devoid of being able to chip in at all. ok sweet appleton back on his wing... the illustrious trio of barron-lowry-appleton which has combined for a momentus 0 goals for this year. seriously blaming the 0-for-33 b/c of no harkins. cmon bro.

how many teams win cups with a non-scoring third line? teams have offense up and down the line-up. i don't know if you're stuck in some the Jurassic era or some shit but look at TBLs third line during their cup runs, PIT with HBK, both COL & TBL last year had 8 Fwds scoring at a 15 goal/82 gp pace. scoring depth is paramount.

i was saying it in the off-season.... this team desperately needs a couple players that can score 15-20 goals or be around 0.5 ppg in the bottom-6. so either upgrade the wingers or find a centre that can drive offense effectively.

& before you start responding to me with PK stuff.... NO ONE is disputing how solid of a PKer he is. he has been good this year with the help of a new system. You can still PK effectively while being a 4th liner, which should be his placement at Even-Strength hockey.
 

voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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ok he's good defensively what has that gotten us so far? he still is on-ice for more goals against than for at 5v5, & that's with being goaltended by Connor Hellebuyck. so really, that speaks to how underwhelming he and his line have been offensively. no finish, no consistency. and now we're suffering mightily from having these stone-handed players who are devoid of being able to chip in at all. ok sweet appleton back on his wing... the illustrious trio of barron-lowry-appleton which has combined for a momentus 0 goals for this year. seriously blaming the 0-for-33 b/c of no harkins. cmon bro.

how many teams win cups with a non-scoring third line? teams have offense up and down the line-up. i don't know if you're stuck in some the Jurassic era or some shit but look at TBLs third line during their cup runs, PIT with HBK, both COL & TBL last year had 8 Fwds scoring at a 15 goal/82 gp pace. scoring depth is paramount.

i was saying it in the off-season.... this team desperately needs a couple players that can score 15-20 goals or be around 0.5 ppg in the bottom-6. so either upgrade the wingers or find a centre that can drive offense effectively.

& before you start responding to me with PK stuff.... NO ONE is disputing how solid of a PKer he is. he has been good this year with the help of a new system. You can still PK effectively while being a 4th liner, which should be his placement at Even-Strength hockey.
There was an interview Chevy did with Stan Fischler in the middle of the season, when he talked about how this team was built up the middle 1,2,3 Scheifele, Dubois, Lowry. That's when the Jets were winning, and Lowry was still pacing to be a 40 point centre...Which would be in that competitive range. His stats right now are in the same range as Alex Newhook, and that's the defending champs.

He's gone dry no question. It happened when the injuries started to hit, and his wingers were reflective of a team that didn't invest in any winger depth. Same problem he went through last year, carrying the likes of Poganski and Reichel. His totals for the year he played with Copp and Appleton and Perreault were very respectable, albeit the division wasn't very good. The year before he got stuck with Gabriel Bourque. I thought Kuhlman might fill the gap that losing Appleton had on this team, but he hasn't. When it was Barron-Lowry-Harkins the Jets were still winning games, and that move looks to have set him back.

How many games can you point to this year and say Adam Lowry lost us that game, even in his drought? I mean I do see him struggling offensively like you, but it's not like he can rely on anyone around him to pick his game up.

I said at the start of the year when everyone said we need more scoring, the Jets need to be a team that scores 3 goals a game, and allows 2.5. They need to improve on PKing. And that's the recipe for winning, and the structure this team was built on, but the scoring is a problem right now. Lowry is slumping badly, and it hurts, but I still don't think he's the scapegoat. I think if you improved his linemates, or even put him on the wing on a checking line, since every player below Lowry and Appleton is a worse player, there would be an improvement. No one else is going to play the hard defensive minutes, on a team that isn't playing well defensively of late. Like I said his -2 ES in the last 16 games is better than every top 6 forward other than Perfetti. It would make zero sense to put Scheifele or Dubois into that role...if you are looking for more offense. Is a Max Domi going to defend better than Lowry? I highly doubt it, since he's never been put in that role. If we had a Patrice Bergeron, or Aho or Barkov or Philip Danault as our top 6 centre maybe you could. But this team is built different. And that's the way it is...I'd hate to see what this team looks like without Adam Lowry.
 

Gabe Kupari

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Jul 11, 2013
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I wonder if next year you see scheif 2 center perfetti Lowry as the center group. Try to build 3 scoring lines. Lowsy is a good dude and plays defense. That's rare for forwards on this team. I'd look to make lowrys line our tougher guy line too. Maybe go get Nick Ritchie, yeah I know but he brings something we lack and looks to be able to score more than our current bottom group does
 

voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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Where exactly are you going with this? I think you misinterpreted the data I put down. I wasnt saying anything about shots. That data isn't based on shots it's based on actual goals.

Lowry is the second worst forward on the team in terms getting outscored. He has a -7 actual goal differential on the ice 5 on 5. Please tell me how that is showing you he is doing his job at neutralizing other teams? The same is true of every other bottom 6 player sans the two i mentioned. They are getting outscored when on the ice (actual goals).

Yes the top 6 has been cold lately which has impacted their actual goal differentials but all its done is highlight just how reliant we are on them winning their matchups. The bottom 6 has largely been an anchor this year.
I apologize. That's interesting statistically.

In the recent slump it hasn't really been him getting scored on though, I think he's still been pretty reliable defensively. I know the lack of secondary offense is not helping the team.

There's a play that was stuck in my head from Sunday's game that kind of describes how I feel about Lowry's game. He's going up the gut, and takes a pass in the middle of the ice, and one touches it on his backhand for a winger attack. That winger was AJF, and with the edge he managed to bobble the puck and then fall down. That's a place I have seen Jansen Harkins score from.

And don't get me wrong I am not advocating that Jansen Harkins can change this team's fortunes around but Lowry has set up some good chances this year, and he's playing shorthanded when it comes to firepower. Though in fairness he doesn't really blend with with elite scores. Defensively I haven't seen him breakdown a lot but I have seen his linemates miss their coverage. Maybe that's just my bias though...

I think if the Jets can get Lowry and Appleton back together they have the semblance of a good defensive line. They have been good defensively in the past. And that's the team Chevy started with, I don't think he is going to change his strategy midseason. The question mark for that line to start was Barron, who beat out Harkins in camp, and I am not sure where Barron is at. Probably one line too high. I look at the combination of Barron and Maenalanen together and they have some good games. I can think of at least 2 two goal games together (not necessarily them but as a unit) this year. That's where I wonder if you added a centre like Bjustad, if you could stretch out into more of a 4 line team. Hoping that Lowry gets some of his playoff edge back, at least recent edge. With Bjustad, you could at least entertain the idea of something like a 3rd line that can score if Perfetti comes back. And still have your defensive aces. At least 2 that can matchup well.

I think Chevy's big dilemna is that he can't afford to sacrifice all his assets to go for it in one shot. He has the responsibility to keep this team competitive while Josh and KC are still here, and the more picks he expends the harder it is to stock the shelves.

There's some good forward prospects in Lucius, Mc Groarty, Lambert, Zhilkin, Nikkanen and Torgersson, but I don't think next year is their year. I think by the time Zhilkin develops you might get your wish for a different looking 3rd line, but there's probably still a couple of more years with Lowry in the role he is in.

Adding Niedrrater addresses next year's team, maybe replaces Wheeler in the top 6, where I could see Connor-Scheifele-Perfetti being the future of this team. There's still the Dubois issue, and Scheifele and Hellebuyck's contract status to deal with though, and who knows how those go. But Chevy's at least retaining some assets that can be used for acquisitions if needed.
 
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surixon

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I apologize. That's interesting statistically.

In the recent slump it hasn't really been him getting scored on though, I think he's still been pretty reliable defensively. I know the lack of secondary offense is not helping the team.

There's a play that was stuck in my head from Sunday's game that kind of describes how I feel about Lowry's game. He's going up the gut, and takes a pass in the middle of the ice, and one touches it on his backhand for a winger attack. That winger was AJF, and with the edge he managed to bobble the puck and then fall down. That's a place I have seen Jansen Harkins score from.

And don't get me wrong I am not advocating that Jansen Harkins can change this team's fortunes around but Lowry has set up some good chances this year, and he's playing shorthanded when it comes to firepower. Though in fairness he doesn't really blend with with elite scores. Defensively I haven't seen him breakdown a lot but I have seen his linemates miss their coverage. Maybe that's just my bias though...

I think if the Jets can get Lowry and Appleton back together they have the semblance of a good defensive line. They have been good defensively in the past. And that's the team Chevy started with, I don't think he is going to change his strategy midseason. The question mark for that line to start was Barron, who beat out Harkins in camp, and I am not sure where Barron is at. Probably one line too high. I look at the combination of Barron and Maenalanen together and they have some good games. I can think of at least 2 two goal games together (not necessarily them but as a unit) this year. That's where I wonder if you added a centre like Bjustad, if you could stretch out into more of a 4 line team. Hoping that Lowry gets some of his playoff edge back, at least recent edge. With Bjustad, you could at least entertain the idea of something like a 3rd line that can score if Perfetti comes back. And still have your defensive aces. At least 2 that can matchup well.

I think Chevy's big dilemna is that he can't afford to sacrifice all his assets to go for it in one shot. He has the responsibility to keep this team competitive while Josh and KC are still here, and the more picks he expends the harder it is to stock the shelves.

There's some good forward prospects in Lucius, Mc Groarty, Lambert, Zhilkin, Nikkanen and Torgersson, but I don't think next year is their year. I think by the time Zhilkin develops you might get your wish for a different looking 3rd line, but there's probably still a couple of more years with Lowry in the role he is in.

Adding Niedrrater addresses next year's team, maybe replaces Wheeler in the top 6, where I could see Connor-Scheifele-Perfetti being the future of this team. There's still the Dubois issue, and Scheifele and Hellebuyck's contract status to deal with though, and who knows how those go. But Chevy's at least retaining some assets that can be used for acquisitions if needed.

Good response. We likely don't have the players this year to deviate from the top 6/bottom 6 setup unless Chevy can add another piece by Friday and Cole is ready by the playoffs.

I think all bets are off for next year. It will depend on what Mark, Helle, and Dubois wants to do.

Harkins did perform better with Lowry then his contemporaries but for some reason Bones doesn't like what he brought. I wouldn't have an issue bringing him back up.

With Lowry I feel he's not the type of center moat good teams employ on their third line these days. I think he's fast approaching the physical/PK fourth line C.
 

BoneDocUK

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^^^

Samberg Libre.

Gonna be tiring chasing the Oilers all over the ice between penalty kills.
 

DRW204

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^^^

Samberg Libre.

Gonna be tiring chasing the Oilers all over the ice between penalty kills.
1677779019583.png
 

voyageur

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^^^

Samberg Libre.

Gonna be tiring chasing the Oilers all over the ice between penalty kills.
I was complaining about Capobianco being in over Samberg last game reading into the line rushes, and turns out both Samberg and Stanley played, and Capo sat. I hope the Jets have Samberg in against the Oilers. The coaches should remember how good he was on the PK to preserve a last minute win last time they met. Glad to see Gustafsson back for this game too. I think the over under on games he can stay healthy for is still low though.
 

Peachkings1922

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If Perfetti is ready for the playoffs which I have no idea? If he is
Perfetti- Scheifele-NN
Connor- PLD-Barron
Ehlers- Lowry-Wheeler
Some adjustments to maximize those 9 might be needed. 4th line in playoffs will be whose healthy and playing well.

Wish they got depth on D instead of their final transaction. Helly well that's the least of our worries.
 

KingBogo

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Nov 29, 2011
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If Perfetti is ready for the playoffs which I have no idea? If he is
Perfetti- Scheifele-NN
Connor- PLD-Barron
Ehlers- Lowry-Wheeler
Some adjustments to maximize those 9 might be needed. 4th line in playoffs will be whose healthy and playing well.

Wish they got depth on D instead of their final transaction. Helly well that's the least of our worries.
I think Names, Apples and Stenlund will almost be for sure be in the lineup. I think that ends up being the 4th line given your first 3 lines.
 

Jet

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If Perfetti is ready for the playoffs which I have no idea? If he is
Perfetti- Scheifele-NN
Connor- PLD-Barron
Ehlers- Lowry-Wheeler
Some adjustments to maximize those 9 might be needed. 4th line in playoffs will be whose healthy and playing well.

Wish they got depth on D instead of their final transaction. Helly well that's the least of our worries.
I just don't see anyone on that third line that's going to generate anything.

Ehlers is lacking speed and is not making good choices, Lowry is an offensive black hole and Wheeler looks like he had a lobotomy and they stuck pelusos bean in his head hole.
 

Flair Hay

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I wonder if next year you see scheif 2 center perfetti Lowry as the center group. Try to build 3 scoring lines. Lowsy is a good dude and plays defense. That's rare for forwards on this team. I'd look to make lowrys line our tougher guy line too. Maybe go get Nick Ritchie, yeah I know but he brings something we lack and looks to be able to score more than our current bottom group does
Unfortunately it's just not how Bowness runs his teams. Or the Jets at any point for that matter.

The only tear we competed, we basically had a 3rd and 4th line of 2nd line cailbre players.

Little
Perreault
Lowry
Copp
Tanev
Armia
Hendricks

Vs

Lowry
Barron
Appleton
Stenlund
Kuhlman
Maenelainen
Axel

Bowness got the team to play better defensively. Chevy didn't go out and get enough offensive talent to score the amount of goals you need to in the NHL while playing a responsible game

It's weird. Chevy did well by believing in the core and not blowing it up after last season disaster. Then he followed up what looked like brilliant patience by... leaving us $7M in Cap space and a bottom six with not enough scoring?

The core held up its end of the bargain and more for half the season plus. Chevy didn't hold up his afaic
 
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DRW204

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Unfortunately it's just not how Bowness runs his teams. Or the Jets at any point for that matter.

The only tear we competed, we basically had a 3rd and 4th line of 2nd line cailbre players.

Little
Perreault
Lowry
Copp
Tanev
Armia
Hendricks

Vs

Lowry
Barron
Appleton
Stenlund
Kuhlman
Maenelainen
Axel

Bowness got the team to play better defensively. Chevy didn't go out and get enough offensive talent to score the amount of goals you need to in the NHL while playing a responsible game

It's weird. Chevy did well by believing in the core and not blowing it up after last season disaster. Then he followed up what looked like brilliant patience by... leaving us $7M in Cap space and a bottom six with not enough scoring?

The core held up its end of the bargain and more for half the season plus. Chevy didn't hold up his afaic

so much this.

the Jets recent trend except for 1 season is usually lack of scoring depth. you'll never get anywhere with a bottom-6 - notably a 3rd line - that cannot chip in offensively. no one is saying these guys should carry the bill, but look at the depth scoring of other teams comparatively:

in the NHL prior to last night's games: the Jets have the least amount of 10+ goal scorers with 5. tied with MTL, NSH and MIN. most is SEA w/ 12, VGK w/ 11 and BOS/CAR w/ 10.

who is the architect of this team? who supplies the players? who hires these supposed coaches that want half the line-up full of no-offense, uni-dimensional grinders?

furthermore, what does it say about the supposed vaunted drafting-and-developing when there's 0 talent that can come in and supplant some of these waiver-wire pick-ups and provide some skill or scoring upside?

this top-6 and goaltending is good enough imo to be a PO team over the course of 82 games. but to go far in the POs when the margins b/w the top-6s and goalies are a bit closer, that's where the depth comes into play and makes their hey.

i will say when healthy the line-up will definitely be a bit deeper though with Nino's addition. i still am going to question Adam Lowry as a 3C that can help drive or produce offense. his stats with top-6 caliber wings over the years are not good.
 
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WolfHouse

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so much this.

the Jets recent trend except for 1 season is usually lack of scoring depth. you'll never get anywhere with a bottom-6 - notably a 3rd line - that cannot chip in offensively. no one is saying these guys should carry the bill, but look at the depth scoring of other teams comparatively:

in the NHL prior to last night's games: the Jets have the least amount of 10+ goal scorers with 5. tied with MTL, NSH and MIN. most is SEA w/ 12, VGK w/ 11 and BOS/CAR w/ 10.

who is the architect of this team? who supplies the players? who hires these supposed coaches that want half the line-up full of no-offense, uni-dimensional grinders?

furthermore, what does it say about the supposed vaunted drafting-and-developing when there's 0 talent that can come in and supplant some of these waiver-wire pick-ups and provide some skill or scoring upside?

this top-6 and goaltending is good enough imo to be a PO team over the course of 82 games. but to go far in the POs when the margins b/w the top-6s and goalies are a bit closer, that's where the depth comes into play and makes their hey.

i will say when healthy the line-up will definitely be a bit deeper though with Nino's addition. i still am going to question Adam Lowry as a 3C that can help drive or produce offense. his stats with top-6 caliber wings over the years are not good.
They need to split up Scheif-Wheeler...
Ehlers-Scheif-Nino
KFC-Wheeler-Barron
Namestnikov-Lowry-Gagner
Gus-Stenlund-AJF
 

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