Patriots/NFL 2021 Season II: 1-2; Week 4 vs. TB

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smithformeragent

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Sep 22, 2005
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Milford, NH
This “Was it Bill or was it Tom?” question still has a lot of meat on the bone.

It will continue to be discussed and debated long after both guys have retired.

People will point to the early days of the first dynasty of Brady doing more with less; Wiggins, Patten, Brown and then later on Branch, Givens, Watson.

I rewatched the Snowbowl game the other day and Wiggins, Patten, and JR Redmond were nails in the 4th quarter and overtime.

They never won the big one with Moss and Welker and the Tecmo Bowl offense. You replay the 2007 Super Bowl 100 times, and how often do they lose that game? Guess the same can be said with regards to 2001. They probably lose to the Rams 6 or 7 times out of 10.

Still, you look at what Brady had to work with at the end here, and it’s natural to second guess some of the personnel decisions. I think it’s a big part of why many fans don’t blame Brady for wanting out, and for actively cheering for him to stick it to Bill, and to a lesser extent, Bob.

The Felgers of the world will say that Brady should have done more to elevate the talent he did have on the roster, in part by not blowing off optional mini camps.

Isn’t this just a similar conversation we’ve been having for years with regards to David Krejci?

“Shame on Sweeney and Neely for not surrounding Krejci with legit wingers. Shame on them for squandering what’s left of he and Bergeron’s prime.”
 
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DangleCity

Registered User
Jun 23, 2016
7,195
3,390
This “Was it Bill or was it Tom?” question still has a lot of meat on the bone.

It will continue to be discussed and debated long after both guys have retired.

People will point to the early days of the first dynasty of Brady doing more with less; Wiggins, Patten, Brown and then later on Branch, Givens, Watson.

I rewatched the Snowbowl game the other day and Wiggins, Patten, and JR Redmond were nails in the 4th quarter and overtime.

They never won the big one with Moss and Welker and the Tecmo Bowl offense. You replay the 2007 Super Bowl 100 times, and how often do they lose that game? Guess the same can be said with regards to 2001. They probably lose to the Rams 6 or 7 times out of 10.

Still, you look at what Brady had to work with at the end here, and it’s natural to second guess some of the personnel decisions. I think it’s a big part of why many fans don’t blame Brady for wanting out, and for actively cheering for him to stick it to Bill, and to a lesser extent, Bob.

The Felgers of the world will say that Brady should have done more to elevate the talent he did have on the roster, in part by not blowing off optional mini camps.

Isn’t this just a similar conversation we’ve been having for years with regards to David Krejci?

“Shame on Sweeney and Neely for not surrounding Krejci with legit wingers. Shame on them for squandering what’s left of he and Bergeron’s prime.”
They don't win 6 SBs without both. It's hard to quantify who was more important. Both had vastly different roles and responsibilities. I could see people leaning either way, but if you ask me it's irrelevant because they needed both. If I had to lay it out I would say the first 3 SBs were more Bill and the last 3 Brady.

At the end of the day, the fact that they held it together for nearly 20 years is a testament to both of them because these sort of things don't last.
 

LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
50,733
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Central MA
They don't win 6 SBs without both. It's hard to quantify who was more important. Both had vastly different roles and responsibilities. I could see people leaning either way, but if you ask me it's irrelevant because they needed both. If I had to lay it out I would say the first 3 SBs were more Bill and the last 3 Brady.

At the end of the day, the fact that they held it together for nearly 20 years is a testament to both of them because these sort of things don't last.

Eh, this is pretty arguable given Belichick's record without QB's named Tom Brady and Brady's success with a clown coach like Arians. Not saying BB is a bad coach, but I also don't believe he's the greatest coach of all time.
 

DangleCity

Registered User
Jun 23, 2016
7,195
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Eh, this is pretty arguable given Belichick's record without QB's named Tom Brady and Brady's success with a clown coach like Arians. Not saying BB is a bad coach, but I also don't believe he's the greatest coach of all time.
It's irrelevant what he did in CLE. He had a crap owner and wasn't allowed full control of the team.
 

Smitty93

Registered User
Dec 6, 2012
8,259
9,445
This “Was it Bill or was it Tom?” question still has a lot of meat on the bone.

It will continue to be discussed and debated long after both guys have retired.

People will point to the early days of the first dynasty of Brady doing more with less; Wiggins, Patten, Brown and then later on Branch, Givens, Watson.

I rewatched the Snowbowl game the other day and Wiggins, Patten, and JR Redmond were nails in the 4th quarter and overtime.

They never won the big one with Moss and Welker and the Tecmo Bowl offense. You replay the 2007 Super Bowl 100 times, and how often do they lose that game? Guess the same can be said with regards to 2001. They probably lose to the Rams 6 or 7 times out of 10.

Still, you look at what Brady had to work with at the end here, and it’s natural to second guess some of the personnel decisions. I think it’s a big part of why many fans don’t blame Brady for wanting out, and for actively cheering for him to stick it to Bill, and to a lesser extent, Bob.

The Felgers of the world will say that Brady should have done more to elevate the talent he did have on the roster, in part by not blowing off optional mini camps.

Isn’t this just a similar conversation we’ve been having for years with regards to David Krejci?

“Shame on Sweeney and Neely for not surrounding Krejci with legit wingers. Shame on them for squandering what’s left of he and Bergeron’s prime.”

The Belichick vs. Brady argument will always be funny to me. It basically only exists because other fans spent years talking about Brady as a system QB, and Patriots fans spent a ton of time defending him, which ended up creating the internal Belichick vs. Brady debate.

That debate will always be dumb and we should be a smart enough fanbase to see that. Frankly, it's irrelevant and only serves to take away from the appreciation of the greatest dynasty in the history of the NFL.
 

Seidenbergy

Registered User
Nov 2, 2012
7,289
3,059
It's irrelevant what he did in CLE. He had a crap owner and wasn't allowed full control of the team.

Most coaches aren't given full control in their first head coaching stints.....especially back then. It's most certainly relevant. You can't simply dismiss it because it doesn't support your side.
 

DKH

Worst Poster/Awful Takes
Feb 27, 2002
76,173
56,470
How could you forget about the greatest chapter in the series
Yah I remember being in wtf mode throughout the last book

ironically last week I was in Barnes & Noble and saw the Harry Potter display and was thinking time to reread all 8 books again this winter
 
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CDJ

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Nov 20, 2006
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Hell baby
Eh, this is pretty arguable given Belichick's record without QB's named Tom Brady and Brady's success with a clown coach like Arians. Not saying BB is a bad coach, but I also don't believe he's the greatest coach of all time.

counterpoint: Brady cherry-picked a team with elite weapons and a good defense. Not that he shouldn’t have done it, he totally should have. It was a smart move. New England had exhausted its resources putting a SB caliber team around Brady for years and kept kicking the can down the road and it was finally time to foot the bill.



how are you guys not exhausted from this argument yet?
 
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LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
50,733
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Central MA
counterpoint: Brady cherry-picked a team with elite weapons and a good defense. Not that he shouldn’t have done it, he totally should have. It was a smart move.



how are you guys not exhausted from this argument yet?

Shh. You're wrecking the fun here man....:laugh:
 
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Smitty93

Registered User
Dec 6, 2012
8,259
9,445
was it brady or arians?

The biggest surprise from last year was Brady and Arians not butting heads, at least publicly. Knowing Arians' history of throwing his players under the bus, I remember thinking that the relationship wouldn't work, especially considering Arians offensive-style didn't mesh with what Brady had done for 20 years. I thought there was a possibility it'd be bad enough that Brady would force them to fire Arians and then bring in McDaniels or someone similar.

I thought the most impressive thing Brady did last year wasn't winning the Super Bowl in his first year with a new team, but rather how quickly he was able to adjust to a new team considering the impact of COVID and how he'd been indoctrinated into a certain play/work-style for 20 years.
 

DangleCity

Registered User
Jun 23, 2016
7,195
3,390
Most coaches aren't given full control in their first head coaching stints.....especially back then. It's most certainly relevant. You can't simply dismiss it because it doesn't support your side.
It was 30 years ago with ownership and never had full control. His record without Brady once he got his program set up in NE is way more relevant.
 

Troublesome 85

TOP RANKED
Dec 28, 2017
10,289
8,026
Sarasota/Bradenton
Bucs stomped the Falcons who have sucked since that super bowl season and barely beat Dallas.

not sure about a total beat down on the Pats. Could see

21-14
or
28-21

Brady knows the Patriots but the Patriots coaching staff also knows Brady. Bucs edge is Brady and better talent.
 

DangleCity

Registered User
Jun 23, 2016
7,195
3,390
Bucs stomped the Falcons who have sucked since that super bowl season and barely beat Dallas.

not sure about a total beat down on the Pats. Could see

21-14
or
28-21

Brady knows the Patriots but the Patriots coaching staff also knows Brady. Bucs edge is Brady and better talent.
I think it will be a closer game then expected. Bucs have some major issues in their secondary which will help. Not expecting a win though
 

DangleCity

Registered User
Jun 23, 2016
7,195
3,390
Shh. You're wrecking the fun here man....:laugh:
Are you admitting to just trolling?

That's the only logical explanation to why you think Bill isn't very good or that the Patriots lost the 2007 SB because they didn't have enough offensive weapons
 
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