2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

[Starat327]

Two negatives make a positive right?
Provy and Jones? Does that work?

For the other team, yes.

 

[CutOnDime97]

It's really difficult to have such low self-awareness.

It's a parody account

 

[deadhead]

Gee, what did we trade for Jones? What are the terms of the extension?

Oh, it's an internet rumor with no details and no evidence that any substantial negotiations have occurred?

Ok, wake me up when there's something worthy of getting your panties in a bunch.

 

[tictactoe]

Hamilton is actually good.

Maybe you should watch how Jones played in playoffs against Tampa or Leafs. Yes Hamilton is good but so is Jones imo.

 

[Striiker]

Just for the record, the only pair Provorov carried is when he was with MacDonald. Ghost, Niskanen, and even Sanheim were doing the carrying when playing with him.

Maybe we just need to give those players better people to play with instead.

Well Ghost is just a #5, according to COC. He even admitted he was their best D this year and his stats were good, but the top pair with Provorov wasn’t perfect, so it automatically has to be Ghosts fault.

And Sanheim isn’t a top pair D either. Only Provorov. Poor guy gets no help.

 

[Prongo]

Gee, what did we trade for Jones? What are the terms of the extension?

Oh, it's an internet rumor with no details and no evidence that any substantial negotiations have occurred?

Ok, wake me up when there's something worthy of getting your panties in a bunch.

I mean the most reputable insider that’s not semi-retired right now reported it. So it’s not an internet rumor.

 

[deadhead]

I mean the most reputable insider that’s not semi-retired right now reported it. So it’s not an internet rumor.

It's still a rumor, Friedman heard from someone that Fletcher has talked to someone in the CBJ FO.
If Fletcher isn't talking to someone, it's a dereliction of duty, that's his job, talk to everyone and stay one top of potential acquisitions.
But that's a long way from "talking" to serious negotiation.

There are some people he can't talk with until late July, but he can talk to a "friend of a friend" and send out feelers.
If CBJ asks to be contacted, then of course he's talked with them.

But I don't get too excited until there's something more substantive.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

TOI is not an indicator of quality.

Philadelphia Flyers @ NHL - Defensemen 2017‑2018 Stats

I really hope you wouldn't say that MacDonald was a #3 because of his TOI and deployments. He was probably a legitimate #5-6 and that's me being generous.

Also subscribing to the idea that the coach knows best is an extremely flawed one. Plenty of people are in positions in life that they aren't the most qualified for, I'd wager there are plenty of junior ice hockey coaches that are better than most NHL coaches.

You are convoluting a simple point.

Seth Jones led Columbus in time on ice each of the last six seasons. He’s been near the top of the entire NHL in TOI for years now.

Tortorella doesn’t hand out ice time willy-nilly.

If Tortorella thought Jones was his 3rd best Dman, he wouldn’t consistently lead the team in playing time & be near the top of the NHL’s most-played players.

People are free to think Tortorella was wrong, just as I am free to agree with Tortorella.

AMac was one of many lousy fungible defensemen in the middle-to-bottom of bad defense corps. His usage was nothing like Jones’.

 

[Starat327]

It's still a rumor, Friedman heard from someone that Fletcher has talked to someone in the CBJ FO.
If Fletcher isn't talking to someone, it's a dereliction of duty, that's his job, talk to everyone and stay one top of potential acquisitions.
But that's a long way from "talking" to serious negotiation.

There are some people he can't talk with until late July, but he can talk to a "friend of a friend" and send out feelers.
If CBJ asks to be contacted, then of course he's talked with them.

But I don't get too excited until there's something more substantive.

You shouldn't be getting excited at all over a Jones rumor.

 

[sauce88]

You are convoluting a simple point.

Seth Jones led Columbus in time on ice each of the last six seasons. He’s been near the top of the entire NHL in TOI for years now.

Tortorella doesn’t hand out ice time willy-nilly.

If Tortorella thought Jones was his 3rd best Dman, he wouldn’t consistently lead the team in playing time & be near the top of the NHL’s most-played players.

People are free to think Tortorella was wrong, just as I am free to agree with Tortorella.

AMac was one of many lousy fungible defensemen in the middle-to-bottom of bad defense corps. His usage was nothing like Jones’.

What exactly has Columbus done with Jones as their ice time leader, looks like mediocre results to me. Exactly what you've complained about with certain players on the Flyers. The hypocrisy is laughable.

 

[FlyguyOX]

As opposed to continuing on with the same plan and core players that has resulted in one playoff series win in 9 years. In other words a decade of less than mediocrity. Hmmmm.

You got me wrong. I want to blow it up. Trade coots/G/voracek etc. Anyone of worth older than 24 or 25

 

[bobbythebrain]

Jones is a really good dman and would be a terrific add.

It all comes down to the price. Even a player like McDavid can be overpayed for. Let's hope Fletch has a modicum of sense

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, it's an indicator that even really good players can't do everything on their own. Guys like Victor Hedman or Alex Pietrangelo that can carry a pair on their own with significantly inferior partners are rare in this league.

Provorov for example has constantly been asked to do too much because there isn't enough talent around him on the Flyers defense. He's been asked to play 25 mins a night, carry a pair, be the offensive and defensive guy on the pair, play top pair unit which doesn't suit his skillset, etc. This has taken place under two coaches and an interim coach, so it's not like it's just one coach who has a blind spot for him. He is clearly their best defenseman and constantly put in bad situations because the rest of the options can't hack it. You can also tell by the way he plays sometimes that he feels like he has to do too much as a result which doesn't help. Keep in mind that the one year Provorov had even a good partner in Niskanen was his best season. They missed Niskanen and he was a good player for the Flyers but let's not act like he was a norris caliber defenseman carrying Provorov.

Either way, all of that is an indictment of the rest of the Flyers defense a hell of a lot more than on Provorov. This is is the kind of nuance, common sense, and context that all of the fancy numbers and charts in the world will never capture.

As for Jones, if Torts thought Werenski and Savard were better, he wouldn't have played Jones more, that's just common sense. Doesn't mean he's right or wrong but that's clearly what he thought and he's been a very good and successful coach in this league for many years.

So when Provorov and Jones fall short of their usage and expectations its their teammates' fault. That's a weird logical leap.

What about the Flyers situation indicates Jones would do any better while being paid to be elite?

 

[Striiker]

So when Provorov and Jones fall short of their usage and expectations its their teammates' fault. That's a weird logical leap.

What about the Flyers situation indicates Jones would do any better while being paid to be elite?

Interesting that it’s their teammates fault when they’re getting the best teammates and best usage but when guys like Ghost get buried with horrible partners and usage it’s suddenly all on the individual.

 

[Beef Invictus]

To compare MacDonald's usage to Seth Jones' is beyond ridiculous.

Seth Jones has led Columbus in both Even Strength and Total Time on Ice each of the last 6 seasons (15/16 - 20/21). Top 7 in the entire NHL in minutes the last 3 seasons.

When did Andrew MacDonald lead the Flyers in ice time? Let alone top 7 in the NHL or over a player the caliber of Werenski?

MacDonald played the majority of Hakstol's first season in the AHL. For 28 games he joined a D comprised of a rookie Ghost, Del Zotto, an injured Streit, Gudas, Schultz, and Medvedev. Before being bought out, he played middle-pairing to third-pairing minutes on a terrible D corps, boosted by shorthanded use.

I mean, get real. Anyway, all of this is just your indirect way of saying you are a better evaulator of Tortorella's defensemen than Torts was.

I knew you'd do this. I knew you'd miss the point on purpose and try to act like I'm comparing MacD and Jones.

What I'm doing is showing you that coaches are not infallible beings. They make errors. Holding up coaching usage of players as any objective measure of player value is nonsense.

The fact is that numerous players outplayed MacDonald and got less time and less prominent usage. Similarly, Jones has been outplayed by teammates and yet he's been treated like he's been better than he has been. Jones usage is based on reputation, not actual results. Just like Provorov.

Coaches aren't gods. They're often wrong. They often function like inefficient pre-moneyball baseball managers working on gut feelings and accomplishments long in the past, rather than objective analysis of results.

Jones' usage is a reason to criticize Torts, not a reason to pretend Jones is secretly better than he's been.

It's funny to see the people who complain the most about Ghost and Sanheim clamor to add someone on their tier who will cost twice as much. And then grasping at desperate and nonsensical things to justify this lust.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Interesting that it’s their teammates fault when they’re getting the best teammates and best usage but when guys like Ghost get buried with horrible partners and usage it’s suddenly all on the individual.

Apparently our defense has too many bad players so we need to add Jones, yet Jones doesn't do well when surrounded by bad players.

Seems like a poor thing to pay heavily for. Might be a bad idea to do that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

@JojoTheWhale you gotta see this data

 

[DancingPanther]

Jones also is carrying less through the NZ and dumping more and more as the seasons pass. Not conducive to winning. Is that on Torts? Perhaps he has something to do with it. But reality indicates he's not really a rover anymore and unless he bucks a now 2-3 season trend, which is not impossible but unlikely, many may be whelmed at best during the best years of his next contract. Be that here or elsewhere

 

[Beef Invictus]

Jones also is carrying less through the NZ and dumping more and more as the seasons pass. Not conducive to winning. Is that on Torts? Perhaps he has something to do with it. But reality indicates he's not really a rover anymore and unless he bucks a now 2-3 season trend, which is not impossible but unlikely, many may be whelmed at best during the best years of his next contract. Be that here or elsewhere

Unfortunately AV is more likely to encourage him to do more of this.

That's another hangup for me beyond paying elite prices for non-elite play; AV is an atrocious match for Jones.

 

[DancingPanther]

Unfortunately AV is more likely to encourage him to do more of this.

Ohhhh for sure. He'd fit like an 8 million dollar glove

 

[Starat327]

Ohhhh for sure. He'd fit like an 8 million dollar glove

Oh, were getting CLB to retain 2M on his long term deal too? Hooray.

 

[Striiker]

Apparently our defense has too many bad players so we need to add Jones, yet Jones doesn't do well when surrounded by bad players.

Seems like a poor thing to pay heavily for. Might be a bad idea to do that.

Yeah, you definitely shouldn't be paying heavily for guys who can't perform as individuals unless they have perfect partners.

Even our trash defensemen - Sanheim and Ghost - have proven they can play at a high level and elevate the play of crappy D. We've also seen that their play stays at that high level when getting top pair usage, so they can't even use the usage/QoC excuse either.

 

[FlyerNutter]

You got me wrong. I want to blow it up. Trade coots/G/voracek etc. Anyone of worth older than 24 or 25

Ahhh we will be there in time fear not.

Will dick around needlessly for a few more years but the ending will be the same.

It’s just the dinosaurs watching the asteroid come at them trying to eat as much grass as possible.

 

[DancingPanther]

Oh, were getting CLB to retain 2M on his long term deal too? Hooray.

I think he'll get more in the 8-9 range but if his aav creeps closer to 10 than 9 the league has gone insane lol

 

[Ghosts Beer]

What exactly has Columbus done with Jones as their ice time leader, looks like mediocre results to me. Exactly what you've complained about with certain players on the Flyers. The hypocrisy is laughable.

Four playoffs in his first four full seasons after arriving mid-season on a below-.500 team. (Missed playoffs this season on a lame duck squad.) A 108 point season. 98 and 97 point seasons. The last team to beat Tampa Bay in the playoffs (sweeping them in 18/19). Beating Toronto in the bubble last season. All while playing on teams that no one would mistake for the Tampa Bay Lightning or Colorado Avalanche.