2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

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The Madrigal

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Apr 26, 2016
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He already saw Niskanen bounce back after a bad year in Washington so he is probably confident he is smarter than everyone else and the Jones trade will work out too. He's wrong of course.
LMAO, ''smarter than everyone else,'' as if several times around the league aren't also trying to trade for Jones and several highly respected people who follow and write about this league don't think he's an elite defenseman.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
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I agree it certainly isn't the end all be all but it's a factor. I only made that post to point out that there is two sides to the coin in terms of how good coach like Torts chose to deploy his players including Jones.

That Jones has been getting the usage he gets while delivering underwhelming results and being outplayed by teammates should serve as an indictment of Tortorella and Columbus, though. Not as proof of Jones' value.

Not unlike Provorov here.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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That's an extremely poor argument.
Why?

Why if Jones was the 3rd best defenseman on the team did he lead the team in playing time year after year under a respected coach known as a stickler for defense?

The only answer to that question is you think Tortorella was a worse evaluator of his players than you are.

Is that a good argument?
 

Striiker

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Yes, immediately.
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There's so so so much more. I could keep going, but you get the idea.

You can’t post like this and then lecture others. It just doesn’t work.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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Armored Train
Why?

Why if Jones was the 3rd best defenseman on the team did he lead the team in playing time year after year under a respected coach known as a stickler for defense?

The only answer to that question is you think Tortorella was a worse evaluator of his players than you are.

Is that a good argument?

Why was MacDonald played as a 1st pairing dman by a coach who was also a stickler for defense when he was actually a bad player?
 
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Captain Dave Poulin

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There's so so so much more. I could keep going, but you get the idea.

You can’t post like this and then lecture others. It just doesn’t work.

It's like "The Social Network" for hockey. Pure Facebook-level drivel.
 

LegionOfGloom

Registered User
Jun 9, 2021
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Except the point of moving them out is to open up cap space for better players - which really highlights the problem. There are only a limited amount of teams that could take those two without sending salary back (which, again, is the point of moving them in the first place). But if you have cap space to absorb either of them, there are also likely better uses of that cap space (which, again, is why the Flyers want to move them). So you're hoping for a situation where the team with the cap space cannot actually use it in a better way (players refuse to sign there for example). All that together and you have a very limited market for those two.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
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Why?

Why if Jones was the 3rd best defenseman on the team did he lead the team in playing time year after year under a respected coach known as a stickler for defense?

The only answer to that question is you think Tortorella was a worse evaluator of his players than you are.

Is that a good argument?

TOI is not an indicator of quality.

Philadelphia Flyers @ NHL - Defensemen 2017‑2018 Stats

I really hope you wouldn't say that MacDonald was a #3 because of his TOI and deployments. He was probably a legitimate #5-6 and that's me being generous.

Also subscribing to the idea that the coach knows best is an extremely flawed one. Plenty of people are in positions in life that they aren't the most qualified for, I'd wager there are plenty of junior ice hockey coaches that are better than most NHL coaches.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
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Simmons was a 30 year old PF who was already in decline at the time. Jones is in the middle of his prime at 26 years old. You couldn't have come up with a worse comparison if you tried.

It's not a comparison.

I'm illustrating the point that people on here do come up with sensible and intellectual points.
 
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The Madrigal

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That Jones has been getting the usage he gets while delivering underwhelming results and being outplayed by teammates should serve as an indictment of Tortorella and Columbus, though. Not as proof of Jones' value.

Not unlike Provorov here.
No, it's an indicator that even really good players can't do everything on their own. Guys like Victor Hedman or Alex Pietrangelo that can carry a pair on their own with significantly inferior partners are rare in this league.

Provorov for example has constantly been asked to do too much because there isn't enough talent around him on the Flyers defense. He's been asked to play 25 mins a night, carry a pair, be the offensive and defensive guy on the pair, play top pair unit which doesn't suit his skillset, etc. This has taken place under two coaches and an interim coach, so it's not like it's just one coach who has a blind spot for him. He is clearly their best defenseman and constantly put in bad situations because the rest of the options can't hack it. You can also tell by the way he plays sometimes that he feels like he has to do too much as a result which doesn't help. Keep in mind that the one year Provorov had even a good partner in Niskanen was his best season. They missed Niskanen and he was a good player for the Flyers but let's not act like he was a norris caliber defenseman carrying Provorov.

Either way, all of that is an indictment of the rest of the Flyers defense a hell of a lot more than on Provorov. This is is the kind of nuance, common sense, and context that all of the fancy numbers and charts in the world will never capture.

As for Jones, if Torts thought Werenski and Savard were better, he wouldn't have played Jones more, that's just common sense. Doesn't mean he's right or wrong but that's clearly what he thought and he's been a very good and successful coach in this league for many years.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Why was MacDonald played as a 1st pairing dman by a coach who was also a stickler for defense when he was actually a bad player?

To compare MacDonald's usage to Seth Jones' is beyond ridiculous.

Seth Jones has led Columbus in both Even Strength and Total Time on Ice each of the last 6 seasons (15/16 - 20/21). Top 7 in the entire NHL in minutes the last 3 seasons.

When did Andrew MacDonald lead the Flyers in ice time? Let alone top 7 in the NHL or over a player the caliber of Werenski?

MacDonald played the majority of Hakstol's first season in the AHL. For 28 games he joined a D comprised of a rookie Ghost, Del Zotto, an injured Streit, Gudas, Schultz, and Medvedev. Before being bought out, he played middle-pairing to third-pairing minutes on a terrible D corps, boosted by shorthanded use.

I mean, get real. Anyway, all of this is just your indirect way of saying you are a better evaulator of Tortorella's defensemen than Torts was.
 

x DeCruze

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There's so so so much more. I could keep going, but you get the idea.

You can’t post like this and then lecture others. It just doesn’t work.
OOOF. Might be one of the worst arm chair GMs I've ever seen.
 

The Madrigal

Registered User
Apr 26, 2016
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Why?

Why if Jones was the 3rd best defenseman on the team did he lead the team in playing time year after year under a respected coach known as a stickler for defense?

The only answer to that question is you think Tortorella was a worse evaluator of his players than you are.

Is that a good argument?
It's post like this that perfectly encapsulate how some people would rather double down on shit than just use a small level of common sense. It doesn't mean Torts was right or wrong, but he wouldn't have played Jones more than Werenski and Savard if he didn't think he was better. Again, just common sense.

Maybe I'm just silly but I think I'll give a successful NHL coach like him the benefit of the doubt over a few joe schmos on a Flyers message board who think far more highly of themselves than they should.
 

Ironmanrulez

#nEvErrEbUiLd #nEvErpLaYyOuTh #nEverpLaYsKiLL
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There's so so so much more. I could keep going, but you get the idea.

You can’t post like this and then lecture others. It just doesn’t work.
GOLD! You make my day! Thx :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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