Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Darkhorse that I think is more similar to Stutzle than people are giving him credit for: Raymond.
Prospect Info: 2020 NHL Entry Draft Thread
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KopitarFAN
Reno Sucks!
The Lukeman
Opinionated
- Apr 7, 2019
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Here is one of my takes on who to draft:
I think most of us can agree that this pick will make this prospect the #1 prospect in our org, regardless if its Stutzle or Byfield. The future of this team will be built around this team. Name how many teams that are built around wingers? I can only think of the Capitals and Ovechkin. Everyone is saying Stutzle is going to be a winger for us. This pick's value will be higher than Turcotte or Vilardi. Byfield would be the #1 center of the prospect pipeline. Other centers can move to the wing. I would rather have a #1 center with top 6 wingers than a #1 winger with a top 6 center.
This isnt the only reason in this argument, but this is part of the reason why I want Byfield. But if we drafted Stutzle, I would be very okay with it.
I think most of us can agree that this pick will make this prospect the #1 prospect in our org, regardless if its Stutzle or Byfield. The future of this team will be built around this team. Name how many teams that are built around wingers? I can only think of the Capitals and Ovechkin. Everyone is saying Stutzle is going to be a winger for us. This pick's value will be higher than Turcotte or Vilardi. Byfield would be the #1 center of the prospect pipeline. Other centers can move to the wing. I would rather have a #1 center with top 6 wingers than a #1 winger with a top 6 center.
This isnt the only reason in this argument, but this is part of the reason why I want Byfield. But if we drafted Stutzle, I would be very okay with it.
cyclones22
Registered User
Yep, just a year or so ago Raymond was closer to number 1 than Stutzle was. Things change quickly before draft day and it also just goes to show you that the development path of a pro league is unforgiving. Raymond could very well end up being an absolute stud. Had the Kings dropped, I was hoping he'd be the guy. By the same thinking of how things change so quickly, it's also why I'm on the Byfield train. He's younger than all these guys and producing and could just as easily explode into a monster of a player in 8 to 10 months.
Agreed. Ovi is one of the greatest of all time. But they won that Cup in MAJOR part because they freaking had Backstrom and Kuznetsov killing it down the middle!
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johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
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I like Stutzle, but I do wonder if he's a bit overrated due to his skating.
What's popular with scouts tends to be trendy. I remember when it was all about size during the Lindros era. Lots of prospects got over valued because they were big.
Now skating is the trendy attribute. So much value is being placed on skating that other skills tend to get overlooked IMO.
Hughes last year for example had the weakest shot I think I've ever seen from a top ranked prospect and no one seemed to care.
What's popular with scouts tends to be trendy. I remember when it was all about size during the Lindros era. Lots of prospects got over valued because they were big.
Now skating is the trendy attribute. So much value is being placed on skating that other skills tend to get overlooked IMO.
Hughes last year for example had the weakest shot I think I've ever seen from a top ranked prospect and no one seemed to care.
The Lukeman
Opinionated
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I didn't think about that. Excellent point. Both of those guys have been 1st line centers for a majority of their career. Every successful team I can think of is built from the middle.
Stanley cup Winners:
Blues: O'Reily and Schenn
Washington: Kuznetsov and Backstrom
Pittsburg: Crosby and Malkin
Chicago: Toews
LA: Kopitar, Richards/Carter
Boston: Bergeron/Krejci
Other Dominate Teams:
Tampa Bay: Point and Johnson
San Jose: Thornton and Couture
Oilers: Mcdavid and Draisaitl
Toronto: Matthew and Tavarse
There are plenty of other examples, I just noted a couple off the top of my head. Almost every single guy on that list was also a top tier 1st round pick, with a few exceptions.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Yep. That's why I mentioned the "New NHL" in my Byfield post earlier in this thread or the other one. Skating is the big thing these days but Byfield has that along with legit size and hands. From the tape, it almost seems unfair to say "for his size" when talking about Byfield's skating: it is good regardless except for maybe the hunched over form.
I guess it is somewhat valid that Byfield doesn't really have a "showcase moment" such as a productive WJC or an OHL playoff run but we've all seen how stupid it is to put too much emphasis on the WJC: especially for a 17 year old.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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Yeah, I would really like to see a bit more goal scoring from him in order to rate Stutzle even or higher than Byfield.
I am impressed with Byfield's finishing ability. From the video I have watched he does some good things in very tight spaces. His hands for a big man are top of the mark.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,478
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In just a few years (possibly even next year). The Kings could have a starting lineup with this down the middle:
Kopitar 6'4" 223lbs
Vilardi 6'3" 201lbs
Byfield 6'4" 214lbs
That's a lot of beef.
Much of the NHL game is still played in the corners and along the boards. It's unavoidable.
For years now NHL teams have been drafting skinny 5'11' 180lbs defensemen. We'll see how that turns out.
Kopitar 6'4" 223lbs
Vilardi 6'3" 201lbs
Byfield 6'4" 214lbs
That's a lot of beef.
Much of the NHL game is still played in the corners and along the boards. It's unavoidable.
For years now NHL teams have been drafting skinny 5'11' 180lbs defensemen. We'll see how that turns out.
I love watching Stutzle but I think you have to go Byfield.
It doesn’t bother me that he isn’t a banger. He can use his size like Kopi does. He has legit skill and speed and could be a force when he puts it all together.
I think the lotto teams will all get very good players honestly.
It doesn’t bother me that he isn’t a banger. He can use his size like Kopi does. He has legit skill and speed and could be a force when he puts it all together.
I think the lotto teams will all get very good players honestly.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
I agree that I'm not terribly worried about the low goal totals for Stutzle and his overall point production is extremely impressive for his age and playing in the DEL.
With Anze though, the SEL is a superior league. I know you aren't necessarily making a direct comparison between the two but I hope nobody reads that and starts thinking that Stutzle will be a better player than Kopitar.
When projecting Byfield, I kind of like looking at Kopitar. Same size at the time of the draft and both were young being late August birthdays. Anze had a great junior season, much like Byfield, in his draft year but didn't put up big numbers in his limited SEL experience or at the WCs although playing against men at the WC was a big deal. Of course, it wasn't a big enough deal to keep him from dropping to 11. Anze then goes on to play in the SEL at 18 and puts up 20 points in 47 games which is great for an 18 year old in that league. He then rides into the WC and goes PPG, makes the Kings out of camp at 19 and the rest is history. Would be interesting to see his splits from the one season in the SEL to see if he came on stronger as the season went on and to see what his usage was like compared to Stutzle in a lower league like the DEL.
Anyways, the point is that the late birthday for Byfield is important. He's eight months younger than Stutzle. That's pretty significant. Even with the Slovenian thing, Kopitar is probably going higher than 11 in 2006 if he's a month older and his draft year features him playing a full season in the SEL and then dropping PPG in the WCs. We could be looking at Byfield dominating the WJC and putting up silly numbers in the OHL while getting even bigger to the point where he'd be going 1OA next year if he was just a month older.
It's not fair to imply there is so much room to grow with Byfield and that Stutzle is what he is since the latter isn't true; however, I just think the upside with Byfield is so massive
Byfield does not have amazing acceleration and he is nowhere near Stutzle when it comes to agility. He does have amazing speed, but there are other factors. Byfield is definitely better in many other departments, but Stutzle may be the best skater in this draft.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
No argument that Stutzle is a better skater. Point is Byfield is simply not a size pick but the combo of skating and the size with his speed being good and not just "for his size".
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Really good point honestly. It's become almost cliche that 'size doesn't matter.' It absolutely does. Just not to the exclusion of other things.
Re: Ottawa, they're gonna be insane. Their squad is huge and talented as well and if they add Byfield they'll legit have the biggest squad in the NHL to go with all the talent.
Which leads to this imo. Byfield is just an excellent skater. Period. It's not 'for his size.' He just also happens to have elite hands and great finishing while being a battleship. People keep adding the 'big' disclaimer to Byfield acting like it's a detriment, that all his skills are just 'for his size' when ironically the real criticism of him so far is he's a small man's game in a big man's body.
The Lukeman
Opinionated
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Corey Pronman stated in a Q/A that even if Byfield was the same size as Stutzle and all the skills stayed the same, he would still lean Byfield. Also he stated in the Q/A that he figures that some people may be questioning his "hockey IQ" simply because of the color of his skin.
When asked why Byfield is being nitpicked so much, he responded:
"His bad world juniors and his mediocre Hlinka Gretzky. I hear folks question his hockey sense. I get it's not elite, but I think it's really good, and honestly in the game of hockey with the demographics of the sport and it's fans and employees whenever you see a player of color questioned on his intelligence or work ethic a red flag goes up in my brain. Doesn't mean the criticisms are never valid, but I think you have to be aware of the context."
That quote is just something to keep in mind. I really do see Byfield being closer to Lafreniere than he is to Stutzle. That was the conversation the entire season until the lockdown, then it became a race between Byfield and Stutzle for 2 rather than Byfield and Lafreniere for 1. Lafreniere definitely separated himself from QB after the WJC, but IMO QB is still closer to him than he is to Stutzle.
When asked why Byfield is being nitpicked so much, he responded:
"His bad world juniors and his mediocre Hlinka Gretzky. I hear folks question his hockey sense. I get it's not elite, but I think it's really good, and honestly in the game of hockey with the demographics of the sport and it's fans and employees whenever you see a player of color questioned on his intelligence or work ethic a red flag goes up in my brain. Doesn't mean the criticisms are never valid, but I think you have to be aware of the context."
That quote is just something to keep in mind. I really do see Byfield being closer to Lafreniere than he is to Stutzle. That was the conversation the entire season until the lockdown, then it became a race between Byfield and Stutzle for 2 rather than Byfield and Lafreniere for 1. Lafreniere definitely separated himself from QB after the WJC, but IMO QB is still closer to him than he is to Stutzle.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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It's not going to end well for teams playing too many smallish defensemen.
cyclones22
Registered User
This is why it is so difficult for the prime Kings style of play to be emulated by other teams to similar degrees of success. You can find skilled guys, you can find big guys, but it is hard to find skilled and big in the same package. It's also why the Kings just couldn't reload. The system was predicated on those two qualities in a great number of the roster. Once the roster started to have their skills diminish, it was over.
ScoreZeGoals
Boooorrrrriiiinnnnng
- Jun 29, 2010
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I would have had no problem taking Raymond if the Kings picked in the 4-7 range
ScoreZeGoals
Boooorrrrriiiinnnnng
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Byfield's skating at that size is such a massive plus. Size was overrated for a long time, but it has gone a bit too far in the other direction now. That combination of size and speed is just so rare
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
I didn't want to bring up the race/IQ questions but I've thought it. I'm not woke or anything but it is still a thing when it comes to QBs at the NFL level and I'm sure there is something to it when looking to draft a player of color as high as #2OA in a sport that is so dominated by whites. I think Byfield would be the highest drafted black player ever if he is taken by the Kings.
It isn't every day you have a player of color slotted this high, let alone a center. Someone help me out, but who are the highly-drafted black players? You've got Seth Jones and Nurse in the same draft but they are both big defenseman with Nurse being noted for his physicality and toughness. Evander Kane is a power forward. Simmonds was an off-the-board pick somewhat in the 2nd round but, again, power forward. Anthony and Chris Stewart...power forwards. THN had Iginla ranked 15th in his draft year so they were way off on him but, again, power forward. All wingers or defenseman with Jones probably being the only one not overly lauded for his physicality but it wasn't a weak spot. He wound up as CSB's top rated NA skater and still had to see Drouin go before him.
Looking at those players I listed, there are a couple of bufoons in there in Kane and Stewart that don't help the cause if someone is going to already be thinking a certain way. Simmonds isn't exactly a hockey genius and I don't think Nurse is necessarily thought of as a high IQ player.
I'm sure that there is a hint of this issue when it comes to some scouts when looking at Byfield: I'd be shocked if there wasn't. That being said, Byfield could be rainbow colored and I'd be taking him at #2.
I think that’s why he was mentioned by Hoven. My guess is the Kings had Raymond as their guy when they thought they were picking 4-7.
After listening to all the arguments for both players.....I have finally come to my decision and lean towards Byfield. Size and skill with speed and also a better scorer then Stuzle. I like playmakers but I want someone who can pot some goals too and I think Byfield is a better scorer with a better shot. Now because most people here want Byfield it's a guarantee the Kings brass will take Stutzle.
Chazz Reinhold
Registered User
I question any scout who is questioning Byfield’s hockey IQ (and, by extension, his playmaking because you can’t consistently make great plays if you don’t read the ice well). He may not have the insane creativity that Stutzle has, but he made a large number of elite reads on his assists this past season.
A perfect example is the one where he’s in the corner and takes a quick peek into the slot to see his teammate and immediately rifles a pass to the teammate for a goal.
Some plays he made are noticeably impressive, while others are simple but smart (I’m thinking particularly of the 1 on 3 where he turned his back to the defender covering him to protect the puck and buy time while a teammate could enter the zone for the handoff). A player without hockey IQ might luck himself into a few incredible passes throughout a season, but not as many as Byfield does here. You don’t make passes through still-developing seams or to the non-obvious threat in a scoring area without thinking the game at a relatively high level.
A perfect example is the one where he’s in the corner and takes a quick peek into the slot to see his teammate and immediately rifles a pass to the teammate for a goal.
Some plays he made are noticeably impressive, while others are simple but smart (I’m thinking particularly of the 1 on 3 where he turned his back to the defender covering him to protect the puck and buy time while a teammate could enter the zone for the handoff). A player without hockey IQ might luck himself into a few incredible passes throughout a season, but not as many as Byfield does here. You don’t make passes through still-developing seams or to the non-obvious threat in a scoring area without thinking the game at a relatively high level.
Oh, I agree on that part, Byfield has a combination of speed, skill and size that is extremely rare. For Stutzle though, his ability to play at top speed is really tantalizing, that skill is dominating the league right now and he has it. I would be happy with either and honestly can't decide who I would rather have, but it seems like a lot of people on here are dismissing Stutzle. His hands and skating are probably the best in the draft class and I believe he has a higher potential than Byfield.
