2020/21 Roster Thread

[Starat327]

I have no one blocked. I am a glutton for punishment.

I was like you once. Then I saw the light.


My enjoyment factor on this site increased tenfold once I got rid of the unnecessary noise.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Giroux wasn't complete and polished when he entered the NHL. Neither was Schenn, nor Carter, nor Richards. Or JVR.

Frost isn't benefitting from setting up bad players. With the vision he's shown, he's better served learning to play with talent. The AHL holds players back at some point, and a player won't hit the next level until they're playing with NHL talent at the NHL level.

Frost isn’t the same tier as Carter or Richards, & certainly not as physically mature.

BTW, the Flyers were the league-worst record in 06/07, when both Carter & Richards were 21/22 & in their second seasons.

 

[wankstifier]

Meltzer is not much of a thinker

 

[Beef Invictus]

Giroux was 21 and way ahead of Frost when he entered the NHL.
21 ES points in 42 games (not 6 in 20)., 5 points in 6 playoff games
CF 51.24%, xGF 53.28%
CFrel +5.05., xGFrel +4.87

You could make a better case with JVR at 20, but he was a wing, not a center.
Carter didn't start until he was 21, played 12:04 a night, didn't play a major role until age 22
Richards was playing 15:23 at 20, only put up 23 ES points, but like Couts, could do other things while he learned on the job.

Frost is better served when he's strong enough to be capable of holding his own on defense and can finish plays on offense.
He's not Giroux, maybe he'll be similar to Carter and Schenn, who needed a couple years to make their mark on the NHL.

Did you remember to account for the fact that Giroux was allowed to play with better players than Frost?

I'm betting you didn't, because that bit of context would be troubling.

This fact remains unchanged: Players do not need to be "finished" before they leave the AHL for the NHL. Not by a long shot.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost isn’t the same tier as Carter or Richards, & certainly not as physically mature.

BTW, the Flyers were the league-worst record in 06/07, when both Carter & Richards were 21/22 & in their second seasons.

Carter was taller than Frost and lighter when drafted. I don't buy the "more physically mature" bit. Frost is a pro athlete. He's in shape. He can compete. We have an extensive list of similar players keeping up in the NHL and progressing.

Leaving him in the AHL when he was better than the guys playing over him is a bad decision. It was an error, both in terms of increasing the team's ability to win and in terms of developing an important prospect.

 

[Striiker]

So Frost needs to be Giroux to make the NHL but Hagg is fine because nothing matters.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So Frost needs to be Giroux to make the NHL but Hagg is fine because nothing matters.

I suspect these artificial physical barriers which only appear and matter when team management needs to be defended, and suddenly cease mattering when they choose to use a player, are a bit of nonsense.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Did you remember to account for the fact that Giroux was allowed to play with better players than Frost?

I'm betting you didn't, because that bit of context would be troubling.

This fact remains unchanged: Players do not need to be "finished" before they leave the AHL for the NHL. Not by a long shot.

This is exactly why I said the other day that Frost isn’t Giroux. Because despite what some posters say, yeah, there’s an implication he is. He’s not Carter or Richards, either.

BTW, I never said you need to be a finished product before you should play in the NHL. But some players need the transitional development, physically & style-wise, from junior to pro. Typically small late first round draft picks need it.

Frost’s 2 goals & 5 assists in 20 games this season support the conclusion that he wasn’t ready to be an impact NHLer.

 

[BiggE]

So Frost needs to be Giroux to make the NHL but Hagg is fine because nothing matters.

Yup. Go figure

 

[Magua]

It’s really nice that we have the technology now to determine exactly what a player is and will be after 20 games.

Players like Kucherov would be in the KHL winning Gagarin Cups, but that’s okay.

 

[rinaldo]

Does Chris Schaefer still post on these boards ?

 

[Adtar02]

Did you remember to account for the fact that Giroux was allowed to play with better players than Frost?

I'm betting you didn't, because that bit of context would be troubling.

This fact remains unchanged: Players do not need to be "finished" before they leave the AHL for the NHL. Not by a long shot.

Didn’t frost get giroux and voracek.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This is exactly why I said the other day that Frost isn’t Giroux. Because despite what some posters say, yeah, there’s an implication he is. He’s not Carter or Richards, either.

BTW, I never said you need to be a finished product before you should play in the NHL. But some players need the transitional development, physically & style-wise, from junior to pro. Typically small late first round draft picks need it.

Frost’s 2 goals & 5 assists in 20 games this season support the conclusion that he wasn’t ready to be an impact NHLer.

Why are you focusing on Giroux? Do I need to provide a range of other examples from around the league of players coming into the NHL and completing their development? Because that list is enormous.

Who was Frost playing with? Was he playing the majority of his time with anyone like Jeff Carter? Or Danny Briere? Do you think Giroux was boosted by having good linemates while Frost would have been held back? Was he given any chance to develop chemistry? Surely, we don't need to explain the importance of who you play with again.

I remember when your exact argument was used against TK being moved from the 4th line into the top 6. Then he was and he suddenly exploded. That should be instructive.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Didn’t frost get giroux and voracek.

Pretty briefly. He played mostly with Pitlick and JVR.

 

[Adtar02]

This is exactly why I said the other day that Frost isn’t Giroux. Because despite what some posters say, yeah, there’s an implication he is. He’s not Carter or Richards, either.

BTW, I never said you need to be a finished product before you should play in the NHL. But some players need the transitional development, physically & style-wise, from junior to pro. Typically small late first round draft picks need it.

Frost’s 2 goals & 5 assists in 20 games this season support the conclusion that he wasn’t ready to be an impact NHLer.

I would suggest that him jumping from juniors to nhl would support the conclusion that he shouldn’t have be elected to be and impact player from the start. He didn’t need to be. Just competent and improving

 

[Adtar02]

Pretty briefly. He played mostly with Pitlick and JVR.

Awesome. Thank you

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I would suggest that him jumping from juniors to nhl would support the conclusion that he shouldn’t have be elected to be and impact player from the start. He didn’t need to be. Just competent and improving

Krejci spent 94 games in the AHL. And that would be a dream for Frost to turn into.

 

[flyersnorth]

A job is a job

Just started watching this show a few nights ago!

Really enjoying it (on episode 4 or 5). Feels like an old school Bond-esque spy thriller. Makes sense since it's a LeCarré adaptation.

 

[flyersnorth]

I have no one blocked. I am a glutton for punishment.

 

[deadhead]

Did you remember to account for the fact that Giroux was allowed to play with better players than Frost?

I'm betting you didn't, because that bit of context would be troubling.

This fact remains unchanged: Players do not need to be "finished" before they leave the AHL for the NHL. Not by a long shot.

Tell that to the Penguins - when they won their two Cups:

Maatta came up at 19, 3rd year in 2015-16, and his career flatlined
Dumoulin, 24 year old rookie, 3yr college, 188 AHL games, 38 PO games, played in 2014-15 playoffs before starting in 2015-16
Kuhnhackl, 24 year old rookie with 154 AHl games
Bryan Rust, 23 year old rookie, 4yr college, AHL season, 16 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Conor Sheary, 23 year old rookie, 4 yr college, 1 year AHL (2 AHL playoffs), then 30 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Jake Guentzel, 22 year old rookie, 3 yr college, followed by 11 AHL, 10 AHL PO, next year back to AHL for 33 games, before called up in 2016-17
Note that Pens didn't rush Guentzel up out of college at 21 in 2015-16, even though he had a great junior season and AHL time.

When these players came up, they were NHL ready and contributed to two SC winners.

 

[Tripod]

Reminder: Frost had 7 points in 20 games...all at ES. That is a 29 point pace.
Farabee paced for 30 ES points this year.
Nolan Patrick paced for 25 and 33 ES points in his 2 years.

Lots of us said we were quite fine with Frost posting a 30 point rookie season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Krejci spent 94 games in the AHL. And that would be a dream for Frost to turn into.

Boston didn't wait for Krejci to finish developing in the AHL. They brought him up to finish developing in the NHL, and he broke out the following year.

I'm sure his 6 goals in 56 games would have been used to justify him being sent back down the following year had the Flyers done it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tell that to the Penguins - when they won their two Cups:

Maatta came up at 19, 3rd year in 2015-16, and his career flatlined
Dumoulin, 24 year old rookie, 3yr college, 188 AHL games, 38 PO games, played in 2014-15 playoffs before starting in 2015-16
Kuhnhackl, 24 year old rookie with 154 AHl games
Bryan Rust, 23 year old rookie, 4yr college, AHL season, 16 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Conor Sheary, 23 year old rookie, 4 yr college, 1 year AHL (2 AHL playoffs), then 30 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Jake Guentzel, 22 year old rookie, 3 yr college, followed by 11 AHL, 10 AHL PO, next year back to AHL for 33 games, before called up in 2016-17
Note that Pens didn't rush Guentzel up out of college at 21 in 2015-16, even though he had a great junior season and AHL time.

When these players came up, they were NHL ready and contributed to two SC winners.

Those players weren't finished developing. What made them look more ready was the consistency of systems between AHL and NHL; they could plug and play anyone. We can't do that.

More reason to get our players away from Gordon ASAP.

 

[flyersnorth]

This is exactly why I said the other day that Frost isn’t Giroux. Because despite what some posters say, yeah, there’s an implication he is. He’s not Carter or Richards, either.

BTW, I never said you need to be a finished product before you should play in the NHL. But some players need the transitional development, physically & style-wise, from junior to pro. Typically small late first round draft picks need it.

Frost’s 2 goals & 5 assists in 20 games this season support the conclusion that he wasn’t ready to be an impact NHLer.

Here's the truth about prospects - we just don't know.

Frost might not be the next Giroux. But he also might be.

It's gonna take a few years to find out.

 

[deadhead]

C

Leaving him in the AHL when he was more talented than the guys playing over him is a bad decision. It was an error, both in terms of increasing the team's ability to win and in terms of developing an important prospect.

He wasn't necessarily better, that's a presumption without supporting evidence.
TK at 22 went belly up in the playoffs, Sanheim and Myer struggled at 23, assuming Frost would be even "adequate" is a leap of faith.
There is nothing in Frost's 2019-20 performance in the AHL or NHL that suggests he wouldn't have been a liability in the playoffs.

Very few rookies make major contributions to top playoff teams, and they're usually either (1) older with significant experience or uber-talented. Frost is neither.

Sure, he MIGHT have been an amazing break out player, of course, I MIGHT win the lottery.