2020/21 Roster Thread

[Adtar02]

Reminder: Frost had 7 points in 20 games...all at ES. That is a 29 point pace.
Farabee paced for 30 ES points this year.
Nolan Patrick paced for 25 and 33 ES points in his 2 years.

Lots of us said we were quite fine with Frost posting a 30 point rookie season.

He wasn’t bad. Personally felt like he should have gotten more games.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Those players weren't finished developing. What made them look more ready was the consistency of systems between AHL and NHL; they could plug and play anyone. We can't do that.

More reason to get our players away from Gordon ASAP.

Krejci played 94 AHL games — with better AHL success than Frost has had so far, btw.

 

[Tripod]

Tell that to the Penguins - when they won their two Cups:

Maatta came up at 19, 3rd year in 2015-16, and his career flatlined
Dumoulin, 24 year old rookie, 3yr college, 188 AHL games, 38 PO games, played in 2014-15 playoffs before starting in 2015-16
Kuhnhackl, 24 year old rookie with 154 AHl games
Bryan Rust, 23 year old rookie, 4yr college, AHL season, 16 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Conor Sheary, 23 year old rookie, 4 yr college, 1 year AHL (2 AHL playoffs), then 30 AHL games before called up in 2015-16
Jake Guentzel, 22 year old rookie, 3 yr college, followed by 11 AHL, 10 AHL PO, next year back to AHL for 33 games, before called up in 2016-17
Note that Pens didn't rush Guentzel up out of college at 21 in 2015-16, even though he had a great junior season and AHL time.

When these players came up, they were NHL ready and contributed to two SC winners.

Look at all those 1st round forwards on that list.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Find me the next Ryan Hartman. With more cap and term.

Can almost guarantee I'd prefer a 3rd rounder to whatever roster player they get.

We need more bicep!

 

[deadhead]

Here's the truth about prospects - we just don't know.

Frost might not be the next Giroux. But he also might be.

It's gonna take a few years to find out.

Think some are confusing two different questions:
1) was Frost ready in the summer of 2020 for NHL playoff hockey
2) will Frost be a top player, maybe even an elite player, once he "grows up."

A lot of top prospects don't hit their stride until 21-22, look at Carter, Richards, Couts, etc.
Players mature at different rates.
So we won't know how good Frost will be for a couple years.
But we often see players make huge jumps in their early 20s.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Tortorella is an

asshole.

 

[deadhead]

Look at all those 1st round forwards on that list.

Well, look at Carter, Richards, Schenn, Couts - all picked much higher than Frost.

And explain why they didn't rush Guentzel, who at 21 was a better player than Frost at 20 (and is probably a better player than Frost will ever be).
Of course, he was a 3rd rd pick, Point was a 2nd rd pick, Kucherov was a 2nd rd pick.

Oh yeah, Kucherov at 20, 52g, 14 ES points, 13:07, 2 playoff games 11:37.
The next season, "a star is born."

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

It’s really nice that we have the technology now to determine exactly what a player is and will be after 20 games.

Players like Kucherov would be in the KHL winning Gagarin Cups, but that’s okay.

They have a cup for the league below that, too. They call it "The Monkey Cup."

 

[Tripod]

Well, look at Carter, Richards, Schenn, Couts - all picked much higher than Frost.

And explain why they didn't rush Guentzel, who at 21 was a better player than Frost at 20 (and is probably a better player than Frost will ever be).
Of course, he was a 3rd rd pick, Point was a 2nd rd pick, Kucherov was a 2nd rd pick.

Oh yeah, Kucherov at 20, 52g, 14 ES points, 13:07, 2 playoff games 11:37.
The next season, "a star is born."

Guentzel:
-no proof he was better.
-was in college at age 21, then 11 games in AHL. So yeah, they didn't place a college guy onto a SC winning roster

Kucherov-how is it possible for Kuch to become a star after all, you and your buddy GB have gone on and on about how Frost is not Giroux. But he can be Kucherov? Hmmmm...

 

[Magua]

For shits and giggles.......

Kucherov (age 20): 18 points in 52 games
Fiala (20): 16 points in 54 games
Marchand (21): 1 points in 20 games
Teravainen (20): 9 points in 34 games
Pacioretty (20-21): 11 points in 34 games/14 points in 52 games
Meier (20): 6 points in 34 games
Schwartz (20): 13 points in 45 games
Danault (22!!): 10 points in 51 games
Zucker (20-21): 5 points in 20 games/5 points in 21 games
Kreider (21): 3 points in 21 games​

I could keep going, but I think my point is clear. I can only imagine the posts here if we transplanted these players across team and time. The single determinative statement you can make about a 20 year old player after 20-something games is about the person doing the determination -- and I don't necessarily say that negatively, unless that opinion is based singularly on those 20 games *cough*. We have context, sample size, development, history all for which to account and formulate opinions. Some of these future stars/top 6 players fell flat on their faces; Frost didn't even do that. Bang average net impact, middle 6 scoring, flashes and a specific area of excellence are good stuff.

 

[Adtar02]

Well, look at Carter, Richards, Schenn, Couts - all picked much higher than Frost.

And explain why they didn't rush Guentzel, who at 21 was a better player than Frost at 20 (and is probably a better player than Frost will ever be).
Of course, he was a 3rd rd pick, Point was a 2nd rd pick, Kucherov was a 2nd rd pick.

Oh yeah, Kucherov at 20, 52g, 14 ES points, 13:07, 2 playoff games 11:37.
The next season, "a star is born."

So Kucherov had worse stats at 20

 

[Tripod]

21 year old H.Sedin had 29 points in 82 games as a 21 year old.

 

[landsbergfan]

Reminder: Frost had 7 points in 20 games...all at ES. That is a 29 point pace.
Farabee paced for 30 ES points this year.
Nolan Patrick paced for 25 and 33 ES points in his 2 years.

Lots of us said we were quite fine with Frost posting a 30 point rookie season.

konecny was at 28 pt pace

 

[Beef Invictus]

Krejci played 94 AHL games — with better AHL success than Frost has had so far, btw.

Ok? He still came up before he finished developing and finished his development in the NHL. The notion that it isn't a development league is bunk. Lots of guys develop in the NHL.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Does Chris Schaefer still post on these boards ?

There’s a blast from the past

 

[deadhead]

For shits and giggles.......

Kucherov (age 20): 18 points in 52 games
Fiala (20): 16 points in 54 games
Marchand (21): 1 points in 20 games
Teravainen (20): 9 points in 34 games
Pacioretty (20-21): 11 points in 34 games/14 points in 52 games
Meier (20): 6 points in 34 games
Schwartz (20): 13 points in 45 games
Danault (22!!): 10 points in 51 games
Zucker (20-21): 5 points in 20 games/5 points in 21 games
Kreider (21): 3 points in 21 games​

I could keep going, but I think my point is clear. I can only imagine the posts here if we transplanted these players across team and time. The single determinative statement you can make about a 20 year old player after 20-something games is about the person doing the determination -- and I don't necessarily say that negatively, unless that opinion is based singularly on those 20 games *cough*. We have context, sample size, development, history all for which to account and formulate opinions. Some of these future stars/top 6 players fell flat on their faces; Frost didn't even do that. Bang average net impact, middle 6 scoring, flashes and a specific area of excellence are good stuff.

Again the confusion is between whether Frost was ready to contribute in the playoffs last summer, not whether he's going to be a good or even great player down the road. As that list shows, good players take off at different ages, some by 20 (Point) some a few years older. A few, mostly elite players emerge at 18 or 19, some sputter and don't break out until later, Couts, Stone, MacKinnon.

I have plenty of confidence that Frost is going to be a good offensive center, a solid 2C, maybe he'll take another step up and be a legitimate 1C (though the odds are long simply because few players are that good). But I understand why a HC might not have confidence that he was playoff ready last summer, I don't think in retrospect that Farabee was playoff ready.

 

[Adtar02]

My biggest issue is the jumping back and forth.

frost maybe be awesome. May not be.

should he have played more in the regular season I think so. Was he going to be a star this year, no. But I would bet he would improve his play.

for the playoffs. Which is a different story. Clearly they didn’t want to play him. But the bar was grant and Thompson. No one said frost was the impact player that we needed. But is it that hard to think he could have been more or equally as impactful as at least one of them.

 

[deadhead]

But is it that hard to think he could have been more or equally as impactful as at least one of them.

It's also easy to think he could be worse, especially against the Islanders, whose style of play was the worse matchup he could face.
Remember, Vorobyev was almost as bad as Stewart in the regular season, Faarabee and Pitlick posted xGF as bad as Grant and Thompson.

Which is why I don't get the big deal, there's no reason to think playing Frost would have had any impact on the final outcome.

 

[Curufinwe]

21 year old H.Sedin had 29 points in 82 games as a 21 year old.

Both Sedins were 25 before they had big seasons.

I recall pointing that out to the Couturier-is-a-3C-at-best crowd years ago.

 

[Striiker]

konecny was at 28 pt pace

And look at how he was ruined by being rushed.

smh we never learn

 

[FlyTimmo]

It was a shame that they couldn't even give Frost a single round robin or even an exhibition game. Can't coach scared. Reliable gets you Thompson.

 

[Adtar02]

It's also easy to think he could be worse, especially against the Islanders, whose style of play was the worse matchup he could face.
Remember, Vorobyev was almost as bad as Stewart in the regular season, Faarabee and Pitlick posted xGF as bad as Grant and Thompson.

Which is why I don't get the big deal, there's no reason to think playing Frost would have had any impact on the final outcome.

Wait a player that only played with a worse player was bad while playing with them. More news at 10.

 

[BiggE]

asshole.

Great post

 

[flyerslducks]

I am of the mindset that we shouldn't make a single free agent move other than acquiring a LHD to play with Friedman on the 3rd pair and relegate Hagg to 7th Defensemen.

I'm open to player for player hockey trades or trading Laughton or JVR for futures though.

same. I think we should make trades or signings after expansion. I would just keep everyone, ghost included. Is it really worth getting just a pick for him? We can always trade ghost after playoffs next year. More than happy to trade jvr UNLESS we get a bad player back. If we do a trade like that, just keep ghost/jvr and go for a big run next year. I think if we relegate laughton to the 4th line he wouldn't score as much and could then get a cheaper contract. I wouldn't mind laughton resigning if he stays in the 2 million area

 

[Adtar02]

It's also easy to think he could be worse, especially against the Islanders, whose style of play was the worse matchup he could face.
Remember, Vorobyev was almost as bad as Stewart in the regular season, Faarabee and Pitlick posted xGF as bad as Grant and Thompson.

Which is why I don't get the big deal, there's no reason to think playing Frost would have had any impact on the final outcome.

Stop going into a different conversation. The comment I made was the did not want to play him. But the bar was grant and Thompson.

personally Laughton should have been the 3c once we were healthy. As I don’t think frost would have been more impactful than him there in the playoffs. After a huge break