2020/21 Roster Thread IV: A New Hope

[Hurricane28]

Yeah, they get pigeon tossed on the regular. Last 2 games by Buffalo, last 2 playoff series against NYI and Montreal. They don’t win wall battles, which is what you need to actually have a shot at winning a Cup. “BuT sKiLL!” Skill is useless if you don’t have the time and space to showcase it. The roster may be deep but it is poorly put together. You have Hextall to thank for that. Fletcher can only do so much, and now he’s strapped in a flat cap world.

you can argue that they need to get heavy but don't vouch for guys like Ristolainen who aren't good and would be a detriment to the team. Team could definitely use someone like Tom Wilson, who actually contributes. Find someone like that instead of a net negative.

 

[romulus augustulus]

Further correction, Myers will be out 4-6 hours.

 

[DancingPanther]

4-6 weeks, not months.

Lol what a jackass. This dude doesn't even know anything, shut the f*** up

 

[Striiker]

It’s painful seeing people completely misunderstand what’s wrong with the roster.

It’s not effort and it’s not size.
If anything, it’s the fanbase that’s being lazy by defaulting to those complaints.

Right now the biggest issue with the players (other than injuries) is puck moving. The ripple effect that has on everything else can’t be overstated.

 

[DancingPanther]

Yeah, they get pigeon tossed on the regular. Last 2 games by Buffalo, last 2 playoff series against NYI and Montreal. They don’t win wall battles, which is what you need to actually have a shot at winning a Cup. “BuT sKiLL!” Skill is useless if you don’t have the time and space to showcase it. The roster may be deep but it is poorly put together. You have Hextall to thank for that. Fletcher can only do so much, and now he’s strapped in a flat cap world.

What do you think the bigger problem is:

1) The Flyers completing 5 offensive zone entries with possession in last game's 1st period (15 mins 5 on 5) or
2) The Flyers "getting pigeon tossed on the regular"

Do you have evidence of them losing all of these wall battles? Where is the data

 

[dats81]

Even if it's only 6 weeks for Myers, Fletcher will still have to trade for a defenseman.
The setup of the D is the glaring weakness of this roster. You can't survive with only 4 competent defensemen, especially not in a compressed schedule Covid lingering season and that was before the injuries started.

 

[BlackandOrange]

It’s painful seeing people completely misunderstand what’s wrong with the roster.

It’s not effort and it’s not size.
If anything, it’s the fanbase that’s being lazy by defaulting to those complaints.

Right now the biggest issue with the players (other than injuries) is puck moving. The ripple effect that has on everything else can’t be overstated.

Puck moving is a huge issue, the half-arse clearing attempts and constant turnovers in the defensive zone is what has been getting to me.

I really hope Braun settles down, as last year he started slowly before improving his play. But currently Hagg, Gus, and Braun are battling to see who can give a coach the most grey hairs.

 

[TCTC]

Even if it's only 6 weeks for Myers, Fletcher will still have to trade for a defenseman.
The setup of the D is the glaring weakness of this roster. You can't survive with only 4 competent defensemen, especially not in a compressed schedule Covid lingering season and that was before the injuries started.

It probably will depend on how much they trust Ghost to be a top 4 defenseman again. If they have their doubts, like I do, Fletcher will probably look to add someone.

Provy-Ghost
Sanheim-Braun
Hagg-Friedman

Not great, but should be enough to get into the playoffs if Ghost plays like he belongs in the top 4.

 

[AbsolutelyNot]

What do you think the bigger problem is:

1) The Flyers completing 5 offensive zone entries with possession in last game's 1st period (15 mins 5 on 5) or
2) The Flyers "getting pigeon tossed on the regular"

Do you have evidence of them losing all of these wall battles? Where is the data

There is no data for wall battles, that’s something that’s observed by simply *checks notes* watching the game. They’re constantly on the wrong side of the puck. You want to get into the data aspect of it? I’ll bite. The reason they don’t complete a high level of zone entries is because the opposition knows they can check the hell out of the in the D zone and neutral zone, and force them to make a quick play, which often results in them dumping the puck in, or even worse, turning it over. Like skill, ‘puck movers’ are useless when you don’t have the puck to move. I beg you, take out a pad and pen and mark down how many 50/50 pucks they come away with while defending and on the attack. Their O zone attack is often one and done, or if there’s sustained O zone time, it’s often around the perimeter, while the middle is clogged up. It’s bad when 5’10 Konecny is one of the only guys in the top 9 that consistently gets to the dirty areas. It’s also very alarming how much the game on Monday looked like both playoff series from last season. Tuesday wasn’t much better, and was a prime example of AV squeezing every last drop out of the flawed roster, and Elliott standing on his head.

 

[Striiker]

lol

 

[FLYguy3911]

They’re called 50/50 puck battles for a reason. They’re less glorified faceoffs. You want to win them obviously but no team is winning them enough to have a massive competitive advantage.

The other teams smother them in the NZ because they are openly a dump and chase team and they rarely attack with any speed since the transition strategy is often a stretch pass to a forward standing stationary in the NZ, often closely marked.

 

[Larry44]

It probably will depend on how much they trust Ghost to be a top 4 defenseman again. If they have their doubts, like I do, Fletcher will probably look to add someone.

Provy-Ghost
Sanheim-Braun
Hagg-Friedman

Not great, but should be enough to get into the playoffs if Ghost plays like he belongs in the top 4.

I think this stretch on mystery reserve could hurt Ghost. AV seemed eager to give him a chance this year, but now that he needs him, he’s not around again. You can’t build a D on a Ghost. A healthy Ghost is a dynamic force who I love to watch play, but that guy hasn’t haunted us enough in recent years.

 

[Striiker]

They’re called 50/50 puck battles for a reason. They’re less glorified faceoffs. You want to win them obviously but no team is winning them enough to have a massive competitive advantage.

The other teams smother them in the NZ because they are openly a dump and chase team and they rarely attack with any speed since the transition strategy is often a stretch pass to a forward standing stationary in the NZ, often closely marked.

You think the dump and chase obsession is a problem? What part of “AV squeezing every last drop out of the flawed roster” did you not understand?

Find a new slant.

 

[Rebels57]

I think this stretch on mystery reserve could hurt Ghost. AV seemed eager to give him a chance this year, but now that he needs him, he’s not around again. You can’t build a D on a Ghost. A healthy Ghost is a dynamic force who I love to watch play, but that guy hasn’t haunted us enough in recent years.

It's not a mystery. It's league mandated COVID protocols.

 

[deadhead]

A lot of teams have won Cups with 3 "top 4" defensemen, it's pretty normal for a team to have only 2-3 D-men who play 20+ minutes. The key is to match and rotate the other three or four to avoid a bad pairing, since there is only one puck, having a pair where neither can handle the puck is far more damaging than the advantage of pairing two good defensemen.

Losing Myers hurts because he's a 20+ minute D-man. So we're down to two, unless Ghost returns and returns to something approaching his 2017-18 level of play. You don't want players like Braun, Hagg, Gus and Friedman being over used (i.e. you want to limit them to 15-17 minutes and spot them).

It's less about first pair, second pair, and more about top usage guys and situational guys.

 

[AbsolutelyNot]

lol

Stellar response from you, as always.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Puck moving is a huge issue, the half-arse clearing attempts and constant turnovers in the defensive zone is what has been getting to me.

I really hope Braun settles down, as last year he started slowly before improving his play. But currently Hagg, Gus, and Braun are battling to see who can give a coach the most grey hairs.

Braun can't settle down if he's being used on the top pair. That's way above his skillset.

 

[AbsolutelyNot]

They’re called 50/50 puck battles for a reason. They’re less glorified faceoffs. You want to win them obviously but no team is winning them enough to have a massive competitive advantage.

The other teams smother them in the NZ because they are openly a dump and chase team and they rarely attack with any speed since the transition strategy is often a stretch pass to a forward standing stationary in the NZ, often closely marked.

If having the puck is as important as the advanced stats people say it is (it is), then yes, winning 50/50 battles is absolutely something that should be addressed and prioritized. Once again, moving the puck is great, but you aren’t moving the puck when the opposition has it.

 

[Striiker]

Stellar response from you, as always.

 

[TB87]

The lack of a useful transition strategy is killing this team. It’s driving me crazy. This is what low skill hockey teams filled with dumb players employ because their defenseman can’t make simple passes and their forwards have no idea how to provide proper puck support. This coach is stubborn as an ox and learned not a thing from their playoff ouster.

 

[DancingPanther]

There is no data for wall battles, that’s something that’s observed by simply *checks notes* watching the game. They’re constantly on the wrong side of the puck. You want to get into the data aspect of it? I’ll bite. The reason they don’t complete a high level of zone entries is because the opposition knows they can check the hell out of the in the D zone and neutral zone, and force them to make a quick play, which often results in them dumping the puck in, or even worse, turning it over. Like skill, ‘puck movers’ are useless when you don’t have the puck to move. I beg you, take out a pad and pen and mark down how many 50/50 pucks they come away with while defending and on the attack. Their O zone attack is often one and done, or if there’s sustained O zone time, it’s often around the perimeter, while the middle is clogged up. It’s bad when 5’10 Konecny is one of the only guys in the top 9 that consistently gets to the dirty areas. It’s also very alarming how much the game on Monday looked like both playoff series from last season. Tuesday wasn’t much better, and was a prime example of AV squeezing every last drop out of the flawed roster, and Elliott standing on his head.

Ok, so the burden of proof is on me now? Weird

The catalyst for the poor zone entry data which I actually took down myself when watching the game is not 50/50 puck battles, it's the fact that the team just doesn't do it. They are being told to rid themselves of possession by dumping it into the zone or by deflection dumping it. Dumps are not 50/50 puck battles- the defense is in a better position to retrieve the puck and organize a breakout. In short, it is a horribly low percentage play.

I also don't really get the vibe that they're losing most 50/50 puck battles. But I don't have the data. And neither do you, so what are we doing here?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

They’re called 50/50 puck battles for a reason. They’re less glorified faceoffs. You want to win them obviously but no team is winning them enough to have a massive competitive advantage.

The other teams smother them in the NZ because they are openly a dump and chase team and they rarely attack with any speed since the transition strategy is often a stretch pass to a forward standing stationary in the NZ, often closely marked.

 

[AbsolutelyNot]

They’re being told that? You’re in the locker room and in team meetings? Interesting, didn’t know we had a member of the organization here on the boards. Anyway, let’s assume, for the sake of this discussion, that you’re right, and they are being told that. Want to take a guess as to why? Which forwards have shown the ability to successfully gain the offense zone with speed and full control of the puck and do so on a consistent basis? Hayes? Probably the best example with the way he used his body to shield the puck, but he’s not blowing anyone away with speed. Voracek? Has the ability, doesn’t do it nearly enough. Giroux? Yeah, maybe prime Giroux, but the not current version. JVR? Lol. The closest thing is probably Konecny, and sometimes his hands are too fast for his brain and he is erratic with the puck on his stick (Islanders really took advantage of this in the playoffs). This team is coached as best as they can to their strengths. They do have some straight line speed up front, which would be my guess as to why they dump and chase, as they maybe figure they can win foot races to pucks in the corners/behind the net. But once they’re met there by the opposing Dmen, it’s usually 1-2 quick passes and an easy breakout for the opposition. Carry the puck in with this group, they’re often knocked off the puck on the half wall and it’s going the other way.

 

[FLYguy3911]

If having the puck is as important as the advanced stats people say it is (it is), then yes, winning 50/50 battles is absolutely something that should be addressed and prioritized. Once again, moving the puck is great, but you aren’t moving the puck when the opposition has it.

They can address and prioritize it all they want but they are literally labeled 50/50 puck battles...emphasizing it isn't going to suddenly turn into an 80/20 edge. Faceoffs are the ultimate "50/50 battle". The worst faceoff guys in the league still wins 45%. Outside of special teams, faceoffs have little impact on the play. But if you are right and the team is so bad at puck battles, you know what would help? Stop playing dump and chase. Just a thought.

Transitions happen on every single shift. True 50/50 puck battles do not. If they want to stop the opposition from having the puck all of the time you have to have one or a combination of a couple things: 1) A strong forcheck 2) Defend the neutral zone/blue line 3) Exit the DZ with control 4) Carry/pass the puck over the offensive blueline (i.e. don't dump and chase). These have actually been proven to have an impact on shot and chance differentials and eventually goals.

I have the most confidence in 1 and 2 improving. They were one of the stingiest teams in the league last year. 4 I don't see changing but they have enough talent up front to adjust. 3 needs the most focus. Yes having Braun and Hagg and Myers and Gustafsson makes it tough but they can help those guys out with system tweaks so they aren't forced to attempt passes they can't make.

 

[AbsolutelyNot]

They can address and prioritize it all they want but they are literally labeled 50/50 puck battles...emphasizing it isn't going to suddenly turn into an 80/20 edge. Faceoffs are the ultimate "50/50 battle". The worst faceoff guys in the league still wins 45%. Outside of special teams, faceoffs have little impact on the play. But if you are right and the team is so bad at puck battles, you know what would help? Stop playing dump and chase. Just a thought.

Transitions happen on every single shift. True 50/50 puck battles do not. If they want to stop the opposition from having the puck all of the time you have to have one or a combination of a couple things: 1) A strong forcheck 2) Defend the neutral zone/blue line 3) Exit the DZ with control 4) Carry/pass the puck over the offensive blueline (i.e. don't dump and chase). These have actually been proven to have an impact on shot and chance differentials and eventually goals.

I have the most confidence in 1 and 2 improving. They were one of the stingiest teams in the league last year. 4 I don't see changing but they have enough talent up front to adjust. 3 needs the most focus. Yes having Braun and Hagg and Myers and Gustafsson makes it tough but they can help those guys out with system tweaks so they aren't forced to attempt passes they can't make.

1 is fine, sure it could be better.
2 is good, probably the biggest overall improvement since AV took over
3 is a disaster, and it’s not just the Brauns and Haggs that struggle with it
4, they don’t have enough talent to execute, hence the resorting to dump and chase, whether it’s coming from the coaches, or the players themselves know their own limits