2019 Off-Season Non-Management Thread - Canucks/Boeser talking 4-5 years, $7m AAV - Kypreos)

[Bleach Clean]

Pearson Stecher Sutter Leivo Baertschi Roussel are bums?

You implied that it’s difficult for Benning to make moves because no team is willing to trade good players for bums. I retorted that Benning should have better pieces by now to trade. You reply with better pieces.

So he should be able to trade for good players then, right?

 

[Carnal]

Pretty much..He will be criticized for whomever he signs..or..criticized for not signing anybody (or missing out on a player)...It's a complete no win situation.

All bases have been covered.

If I didn't read all the responses to this post I'd have thought it was sarcastic. He has a generally poor record of signings and trades, wouldn't you agree? I can't even see how this is debatable.

 

[sting101]

No, they aren’t washed up bums, they range from marginally useful to decent depth pieces on a wildcard team.

The term damning with faint praise might apply here. There has been a lot of washed up bums though.

problem is you dont get good UFA players until your team looks like they are moving in a good direction and no teams give young quality for anything short of 1st round picks + A prospects.

Added some competitive depth around replacement level to be bounced for jobs by the kids when they were worthy and people are upset about it?

 

[CanaFan]

problem is you dont get good UFA players until your team looks like they are moving in a good direction and no teams give young quality for anything short of 1st round picks + A prospects.

Added some competitive depth around replacement level to be bounced for jobs by the kids when they were worthy and people are upset about it?

I disagree that those circumstances need to exist for GMs to make quality signings and trades. Good talent identification is an internal skill set, not a function of external factors. Did Benning exercise good talent identification when he acquired Gudbranson? Sbisa? Sutter? The consistent theme is poor identification of pro talent, not the assets available to acquire them. No one is expecting Benning to turn turds into diamonds, but is it too much to ask him not to consistently turn turds into even worse turds?

 

[Bleach Clean]

problem is you dont get good UFA players until your team looks like they are moving in a good direction and no teams give young quality for anything short of 1st round picks + A prospects.

Added some competitive depth around replacement level to be bounced for jobs by the kids when they were worthy and people are upset about it?

This is incorrect. You can get good players at any point in a cycle. Your pro-scouting has to be good though. Almost moneypuck, in a way.

There is value out there, with or without high end picks. With or without being competitive. You just have to recognize it. Benning does not, and it doesn’t look like he ever will.

 

[sting101]

You implied that it’s difficult for Benning to make moves because no team is willing to trade good players for bums. I retorted that Benning should have better pieces by now to trade. You reply with better pieces.

So he should be able to trade for good players then, right?

for the first time in 5yrs we do have some pieces we could move to make a solid trade. Thing is many are either at the point of needing a season or 2 to fully develop (Hutton Virtanen Demko Gaudette) have been injury plagued (Sutter Tanev Juolevi Baertschi) and others have just gotten here in the case of (Pearson Leivo) and should be given a chance to shine.

 

[TraderJim]

Pearson Stecher Sutter Leivo Baertschi Roussel are bums?

After five years THIS is your list of useful players brought in? Compare that to every other team on the planet over the course of 5 years in ANY sport. Ridiculously bad.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

If I didn't read all the responses to this post I'd have thought it was sarcastic. He has a generally poor record of signings and trades, wouldn't you agree? I can't even see how this is debatable.

As I said previously, he does have a poor pro scouting record...but even when he does something decent, the conditioned responses here are negative (check out the Josh Leivo trade thread).

 

[TraderJim]

As I said previously, he does have a poor pro scouting record...but even when he does something decent, the conditioned responses here are negative (check out the Josh Leivo trade thread).

"Oh baby, why do you cower whenever I raise my hand. I only hit you those other times. This time I was trying to hug you. LOVE ME!!!"

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

After five years THIS is your list of useful players brought in? Compare that to every other team on the planet over the course of 5 years in ANY sport. Ridiculously bad.

When you are a middling/rebuilding team ,you are not going to attract really good UFA's...(It takes two to tango, they get to pick their destination, and its usually to a contender)..all you have to offer is cash and term.

Hopefully, this year..the 'circumstances' are different...The Canucks (with a promising young core) should be able to attract a good player.

 

[sting101]

This is incorrect. You can get good players at any point in a cycle. Your pro-scouting has to be good though. Almost moneypuck, in a way.

There is value out there, with or without high end picks. With or without being competitive. You just have to recognize it.

I disagree that those circumstances need to exist for GMs to make quality signings and trades. Good talent identification is an internal skill set, not a function of external factors. Did Benning exercise good talent identification when he acquired Gudbranson? Sbisa? Sutter? The consistent theme is poor identification of pro talent, not the assets available to acquire them. No one is expecting Benning to turn turds into diamonds, but is it too much to ask him not to consistently turn turds into even worse turds?

Yes and he has made many mistakes for sure but its pretty disengenous to just insert names of depth players and say Bartkowski for example was an awful signing. He only played a full season because of the defenece being decimated and its not like we had someone on the farm who was ready to take that load. As a 7/8 he could have been ok. I mean he might not have even played if the left side stayed 100p healthy.

This organization has been top4 in man games lost for 4 yrs in a row and the team was in a transition. The kids were far from good players. It's not an advantageous position to work from but sure it could have been better. I dont know if picking higher would have helped either so there is that.

@Pastor Of Muppetz is right people whine about every player when by definition the bottom half of teams are generally what would be considered average to poor NHL players. Its too easy

 

[rypper]

Rebuilding teams are able to attract players that hold trade value, that's not really an excuse.

Look at Toronto or any team truly rebuilding that has signed players only to flip them for picks at the deadline.

The Canucks being unable to do that falls squarely on poor pro scouting and the general manager.

 

[TraderJim]

When you are a middling/rebuilding team ,you are not going to attract really good UFA's...(It takes two to tango, they get to pick their destination, and its usually to a contender)..all you have to offer is cash and term.

Hopefully, this year..the 'circumstances' are different...The Canucks (with a promising young core) should be able to attract a good player.

McCann + 2nd round = Pearson Stecher Sutter Leivo Baertschi Roussel


This is how bad the team has done. Those only SIX useful players brought in over the course of FIVE years barely equal the value they f***ed up in that one terrible trade, let alone everything else along the way.

How can you not see this as absolutely horrible?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

McCann + 2nd round = Pearson Stecher Sutter Leivo Baertschi Roussel


This is how bad the team has done. Those only SIX useful players brought in over the course of FIVE years barely equal the value they ****ed up in that one terrible trade, let alone everything else along the way.

How can you not see this as absolutely horrible?

For the 3rd time..I said the majority of the pro scouting aspect of this management team was poor.

Yet your comments like" Compare that to every other team on the planet over the course of 5 years in ANY sport. Ridiculously bad."..are ridiculous over the top hyperbole....farther reconfirming my point of pre-conditioned responses to whatever Benning does/or will do.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yes and he has made many mistakes for sure but its pretty disengenous to just insert names of depth players and say Bartkowski for example was an awful signing. He only played a full season because of the defenece being decimated and its not like we had someone on the farm who was ready to take that load. As a 7/8 he could have been ok. I mean he might not have even played if the left side stayed 100p healthy.

This organization has been top4 in man games lost for 4 yrs in a row and the team was in a transition. The kids were far from good players. It's not an advantageous position to work from but sure it could have been better. I dont know if picking higher would have helped either so there is that.

@Pastor Of Muppetz is right people whine about every player when by definition the bottom half of teams are generally what would be considered average to poor NHL players. Its too easy

The criticism isn’t localized to the bottom half of the team? Also, not all depth players are equal and of the same quality. You know this.

It’s not “could have been better”, it’s “should have been better”. The reason it was not is because of poor pro scouting.

Better scouting, better depth, better able to sustain injuries.

The complaints are valid. You can’t at once say things could have been better and at the same time deride the complaints that follow from mistakes. It doesn’t make sense.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

So...we're back to being heckled because we're expecting a gm who makes bad moves the vast majority of the time to make bad moves?

And hilarious to see Pettersson used as an example of a good move. As if picking a good player with a 5th overall draft pick is something weird and arcane. Show you how bad his performance really is when not f***ing up something extremely basic is heralded as something special.

 

[sting101]

After five years THIS is your list of useful players brought in? Compare that to every other team on the planet over the course of 5 years in ANY sport. Ridiculously bad.

show your work. and include the 1st rounders and prospects they paid and you can probably toss out 90% of the unrealistic free agents too. Be my guest

 

[CanaFan]

As I said previously, he does have a poor pro scouting record...but even when he does something decent, the conditioned responses here are negative (check out the Josh Leivo trade thread).

You hit the nail on the hit with the bolded. Conditioning is a real thing and until it occurs in the opposite direction, it will remain a valid expectation.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You hit the nail on the hit with the bolded. Conditioning is a real thing and until it occurs in the opposite direction, it will remain a valid expectation.

Agreed....and I'm glad you can see that pre conditioned responses are to be be expected here...Thats basically all I said in my original post.

 

[CanaFan]

Yes and he has made many mistakes for sure but its pretty disengenous to just insert names of depth players and say Bartkowski for example was an awful signing. He only played a full season because of the defenece being decimated and its not like we had someone on the farm who was ready to take that load. As a 7/8 he could have been ok. I mean he might not have even played if the left side stayed 100p healthy.

This organization has been top4 in man games lost for 4 yrs in a row and the team was in a transition. The kids were far from good players. It's not an advantageous position to work from but sure it could have been better. I dont know if picking higher would have helped either so there is that.

@Pastor Of Muppetz is right people whine about every player when by definition the bottom half of teams are generally what would be considered average to poor NHL players. Its too easy

They “whine” because their expectations are low. And your Bartkowski example is a perfect example. It’s too easy to pass that off by saying it was a depth signing. Bartkowski was h-o-r-r-i-b-l-e. Like barely AHL grade. The best thing to do with a “depth signing” like that is avoid it, not seek it out. Sign better depth, then flip it for draft picks because it’s in demand at the TDL, and go into the draft with more than the league allotted 7 picks. But instead we have a GM who just recently went around the league and was apparently *surprised* to learn that other GMs didn’t value his 5 years of acquisitions as much as he did.

That would win Benning some fans and change expectations. PoM is merely arguing we should lower our expectations to fit the GM’s body of work, which is a sad type of fandom IMO.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They “whine” because their expectations are low. And your Bartkowski example is a perfect example. It’s too easy to pass that off by saying it was a depth signing. Bartkowski was h-o-r-r-i-b-l-e. Like barely AHL grade. The best thing to do with a “depth signing” like that is avoid it, not seek it out. Sign better depth, then flip it for draft picks because it’s in demand at the TDL, and go into the draft with more than the league allotted 7 picks. But instead we have a GM who just recently went around the league and was apparently *surprised* to learn that other GMs didn’t value his 5 years of acquisitions as much as he did.

That would win Benning some fans and change expectations. PoM is merely arguing we should lower our expectations to fit the GM’s body of work, which is a sad type of fandom IMO.

No where did state that ( that's just your opinion, man)...I stated in an earlier post that with different 'circumstances ' this season, some good UFA's may decide to make the Canucks (who now have a promising group of players) a destination.

 

[Carnal]

For the 3rd time..I said the majority of the pro scouting aspect of this management team was poor.

Yet your comments like" Compare that to every other team on the planet over the course of 5 years in ANY sport. Ridiculously bad."..are ridiculous over the top hyperbole....farther reconfirming my point of pre-conditioned responses to whatever Benning does/or will do.

What for you is more significant and annoying/frustrating?

People's pre conditioned negative responses to Benning acquisitions?

Or

Benning's poor pro scouting resulting in a general theme of bad trades and signings?

I agree with you about those pre conditioned negative responses that I have seen people here have... but perhaps there is reason for that??

 

[sting101]

The criticism isn’t localized to the bottom half of the team? Also, not all depth players are equal and of the same quality. You know this.

It’s not “could have been better”, it’s “should have been better”. The reason it was not is because of poor pro scouting.

Better scouting, better depth, better able to sustain injuries.

The complaints are valid. You can’t at once say things could have been better and at the same time deride the complaints that follow from mistakes. It doesn’t make sense.

yes it does if you start using names that were meant to be in certain roles and had to play higher in the lineup and then got exposed.

I dont want to get into into re hashing it. The core sucked and when role players play from behind they generally suck also. Look at the btm 10 teams the last 5 yrs and give me a list of the good players they aquired during Bennings tenure that didnt cost them substantial assets or crazy cap dollars.

 

[CanaFan]

No where did state that ( that's just your opinion, man)...I stated in an earlier post that with different 'circumstances ' this season, some good UFA's may decide to make the Canucks (who now have a promising group of players) a destination.

You didn’t state it but it’s axiomatic in your criticisms of people’s reactions. Holding Benning’s track record constant, we can only lower our expectations until it no longer warrants criticism.

 

[Hit the post]

Yes and he has made many mistakes for sure but its pretty disengenous to just insert names of depth players and say Bartkowski for example was an awful signing.

I'd actually argue that was one of his better pro D signings/acquisitions. No I'm not joking. Signing a UFA D for depth to a one year deal on a fairly cheap contract. Course, after FIVE YEARS, if this is one of his better pro scouting D signings/acquisitions; that indicates just how good the rest of his 'managerial skills' were. Even Dave 'Do Nothing' Nonis got Willie Mitchell (in fewer seasons).