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As I said, Kopitar and Doughty etc are paycheck players with the Kings. They aren’t leaders, they won’t lead the young guys coming up anywhere. They certainly aren’t stars anymore.

Kings need to move on, and start rebuilding towards a team they envision to have to win a cup again. This current group of paycheck players isn’t going to win anymore.
That’s where you are wrong though. You have to ask why 8 and 11 are not playing well, it’s the situation they are in. They are surrounded by guys barely able to hold a job in the NHL. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum and it absolutely is going to affect them.

No top player is playing well on this roster, and to think and different is either naive or blinkered because you prefer bashing these guys. Swap McDavid for Kopitar and he looks nowhere near the player he looks right now. Swap any defencemen for Drew and it’s the same story.

Put it this way, if either of them were traded to a contender this coming off season, then either start getting talked about the following year for the Norris or Selke, as appropriate. As our roster quality improves so will they.
 

King'sPawn

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I think you are missing the point. There's nothing you can do to supplant these players. Furthermore, why even bother going UFA? You can sign some random college kids and let them try to do something. You're going to be sucking anyways.

Yes, you can. You develop players to be able to adequately replace these veterans you want to trade away.

You're not happy with Iafallo now. You're seriously advocating signing more college UFAs and set them up for failure? Do you not see a problem with this?
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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Yes, you can. You develop players to be able to adequately replace these veterans you want to trade away.

You're not happy with Iafallo now. You're seriously advocating signing more college UFAs and set them up for failure? Do you not see a problem with this?


Makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.

You think people are mad at Kempe at 3C...imagine Kempe 1C. And never mind Kempe, people were starting to turn on Lizotte, a guy who clearly leaves everything on the ice. Imagine him matching up against McDavid night after night. Lol at a top pairing of Walker-Martinez. I mean, I thought people would have realized how much Doughty meant when Fantenberg-Martinez got completely bitch slapped as our top pairing vs. Vegas but guess not.

People want to rush guys like Kupari into the NHL--he's struggling in the AHL. Bjornfot looked like the second coming in the preseason but promptly showed he needed some developmental focus--guess we'd prefer to ruin him instead.

I posted the list of UFAs yesterday and asked what 'veteran leaders' people would sign to replace Kopitar and Doughty but no surprise it was met with total silence. The guys people are looking for don't exist anymore.

I can't believe people are seriously advocating us being the 2010s Oilers as a serious model of development.
 

Sol

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Yes, you can. You develop players to be able to adequately replace these veterans you want to trade away.

You're not happy with Iafallo now. You're seriously advocating signing more college UFAs and set them up for failure? Do you not see a problem with this?
Why is your interest in developing stop gaps during rebuilding years? They will be making more money than they could possibly make in their career and they have a chance to showcase themselves. Sounds like a win win.
 

Sol

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Makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.

You think people are mad at Kempe at 3C...imagine Kempe 1C. And never mind Kempe, people were starting to turn on Lizotte, a guy who clearly leaves everything on the ice. Imagine him matching up against McDavid night after night. Lol at a top pairing of Walker-Martinez. I mean, I thought people would have realized how much Doughty meant when Fantenberg-Martinez got completely ***** slapped as our top pairing vs. Vegas but guess not.

People want to rush guys like Kupari into the NHL--he's struggling in the AHL. Bjornfot looked like the second coming in the preseason but promptly showed he needed some developmental focus--guess we'd prefer to ruin him instead.

I posted the list of UFAs yesterday and asked what 'veteran leaders' people would sign to replace Kopitar and Doughty but no surprise it was met with total silence. The guys people are looking for don't exist anymore.

I can't believe people are seriously advocating us being the 2010s Oilers as a serious model of development.

Don't want ufas. Who's turning on Lizotte? Haven't seen anyone say that. Again, I must be confused. The players developing in other leagues are going to get effected by the suck? I wasn't advocating rushing players.


I don't get this illogical reasoning. The team is going to suck. Try out college kids here and there, and save money. Ufa is bullshit maybe that's why no one answered your question, cause your question was irrelevant to this teams problems.
 

KINGS17

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That’s where you are wrong though. You have to ask why 8 and 11 are not playing well, it’s the situation they are in. They are surrounded by guys barely able to hold a job in the NHL. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum and it absolutely is going to affect them.

No top player is playing well on this roster, and to think and different is either naive or blinkered because you prefer bashing these guys. Swap McDavid for Kopitar and he looks nowhere near the player he looks right now. Swap any defencemen for Drew and it’s the same story.

Put it this way, if either of them were traded to a contender this coming off season, then either start getting talked about the following year for the Norris or Selke, as appropriate. As our roster quality improves so will they.
How fast do you expect the roster quality to improve? That's the $64,000 question. I don't think it will be in time for Kopitar to help much.
 

KINGS17

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Makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.

You think people are mad at Kempe at 3C...imagine Kempe 1C. And never mind Kempe, people were starting to turn on Lizotte, a guy who clearly leaves everything on the ice. Imagine him matching up against McDavid night after night. Lol at a top pairing of Walker-Martinez. I mean, I thought people would have realized how much Doughty meant when Fantenberg-Martinez got completely ***** slapped as our top pairing vs. Vegas but guess not.

People want to rush guys like Kupari into the NHL--he's struggling in the AHL. Bjornfot looked like the second coming in the preseason but promptly showed he needed some developmental focus--guess we'd prefer to ruin him instead.

I posted the list of UFAs yesterday and asked what 'veteran leaders' people would sign to replace Kopitar and Doughty but no surprise it was met with total silence. The guys people are looking for don't exist anymore.

I can't believe people are seriously advocating us being the 2010s Oilers as a serious model of development.
Eh, we survived with Armstrong as the 1C.

It wasn't met with total silence. I suggested Simmonds and Muzzin as possibilities, and Brown is still here. People who are real leaders are followed naturally. The current roster is devoid of passion for the most part.

Additionally, if you remove some of the defacto leaders, some of the younger guys who might be actual leaders may grow into the role.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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Don't want ufas. Who's turning on Lizotte? Haven't seen anyone say that. Again, I must be confused. The players developing in other leagues are going to get effected by the suck? I wasn't advocating rushing players.


I don't get this illogical reasoning. The team is going to suck. Try out college kids here and there, and save money. Ufa is bull**** maybe that's why no one answered your question, cause your question was irrelevant to this teams problems.


So you're just advocating signing filler. That's fine, that's exactly why I produced that UFA list and why that question is relevant to the teams problems. Youre suggesting the same thing but to avoid UFAs and sign college FAs instead, correct?

I mean, some of the most highly touted college ufas are trash in the AHL. Nico Sturm anyone? Brickley? Rempal?

You think that's a better solution?
 
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That’s where you are wrong though. You have to ask why 8 and 11 are not playing well, it’s the situation they are in. They are surrounded by guys barely able to hold a job in the NHL. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum and it absolutely is going to affect them.

No top player is playing well on this roster, and to think and different is either naive or blinkered because you prefer bashing these guys. Swap McDavid for Kopitar and he looks nowhere near the player he looks right now. Swap any defencemen for Drew and it’s the same story.

Put it this way, if either of them were traded to a contender this coming off season, then either start getting talked about the following year for the Norris or Selke, as appropriate. As our roster quality improves so will they.

McDavid has been playing on trash teams since being in the NHL and still has decent production. We’ve heard for many years, essentially since Kopitar has been in the league that he’s not producing because he doesn’t have x,y,z.

They aren’t producing because of the coaches, management won’t get them the right line mate. Every year there’s an excuse. I’m tired of hearing about them. Tired of hearing about how it’s everything and everyone else except the player themselves.

You don’t get paid 10 million a year to rely on everyone else to make your game work. Doesn’t work that way.

There’s zero accountability in LA. None. These guys are pampered and soft, collecting a check and going home. You think they give a **** about winning? (Scoff)
 

Peter James Bond II

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Honestly, the Kings are doing much better signing College free agents, than drafting players!
Iafallo, Walker, Lizzotte, Petersen can all play....and Roy is doing okay. He had a rough start, but better of late. Brickley is not to be written off yet. I think the Kings should add a few extra scouts,
just to scour the college ranks and maybe an extra Euro scout, to find talent there too. Of course, the last 3 drafts will indeed produce some NHL players - many of them good ones.

Sure, most teams know who the better free agents are - but many did not know Lizotte would sign - as he was finishing up his Sophomore season. Somehow, the Kings were able to get to him.
They have a good track record here and may be able to convince some more to sign, showing them they can get fast tracked to the NHL.
 

regulate

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Honestly, the Kings are doing much better signing College free agents, than drafting players!
Iafallo, Walker, Lizzotte, Petersen can all play....and Roy is doing okay. He had a rough start, but better of late. Brickley is not to be written off yet. I think the Kings should add a few extra scouts,
just to scour the college ranks and maybe an extra Euro scout, to find talent there too. Of course, the last 3 drafts will indeed produce some NHL players - many of them good ones.

Sure, most teams know who the better free agents are - but many did not know Lizotte would sign - as he was finishing up his Sophomore season. Somehow, the Kings were able to get to him.
They have a good track record here and may be able to convince some more to sign, showing them they can get fast tracked to the NHL.

Roy was drafted, but I get what you are laying down there. Of course Petersen was too, but fortunately we grabbed him the free agent market after he failed to sign with the Sabres.
 

Sol

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So you're just advocating signing filler. That's fine, that's exactly why I produced that UFA list and why that question is relevant to the teams problems. Youre suggesting the same thing but to avoid UFAs and sign college FAs instead, correct?

I mean, some of the most highly touted college ufas are trash in the AHL. Nico Sturm anyone? Brickley? Rempal?

You think that's a better solution?

Yeah I actually do. I'd rather have cheap fillers who might be decent if they develop than take expensive bloated ufas when the team is going through its rebuilding phase. I want Kings to trade and get picks and lighten the cap. For what reason would we need bloated Ufa vets during this period.

The rare dirt cheap ufas suck. So why take a chance on an overhill player?


Kings are rebuilding. Not looking to compete. No reason to touch the Ufa market.
 

KingsFan7824

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I've been saying it for several years now. Kings have a lot of unmoveable vets or they're more valuable staying here than being moved. They shoulda moved Clifford last year when he was at his peak. Shoulda moved Lewis a couple seasons ago. Those are guys you can get good value for because every contender needs depth. Most contenders don't need a Kopitar because they already got their Kopitar and that's why they're contenders.

But nobody needs Clifford or Lewis with a year or two left on their contracts. Perfect deadline rentals that won't cost much, but who wants to have to account for them beyond that? But, DL gives Clifford a 5 year deal, Lewis a 4 year deal, and only now can we finally start seeing them leave.

Only a few Toffoli, Carter, and maybe even Quick on a good team if they're injured. While quick sucks ass, he can be sheltered by a good defensive team but it'd be difficult.

My point was that they waited too long to do anything meaningful.

Of course they did, but that's the direction they chose to go. Toffoli will be traded in the next few months. There was never a good time to trade Carter. He was already 30 in Jan 2015, with 7 more years left. As a free agent, sure, someone would've given him a 7 year contract. Even if someone would've traded for him sometime after that, DL wasn't doing it. He gave Clifford a 5 year deal in Feb 2015. He gave Lewis a 4 year deal in June 2016. There was never a thought of trading Carter. It wasn't an option. No thought, or realistic possibility of trading Quick anytime during the 10 year contract.

DL solidified the roster to be here forever. That was his whole schtick. We keep having all these discussions about what they could've gotten when the run was clearly over after 14-15, when it doesn't matter. There weren't even any rumors about trade returns at the time, because DL wasn't thinking about it. After 16-17, Carter was 32 with 5 years left. Go around the league over the last however many years and find the number of 32 year olds with 5 years left that got traded. There aren't many.

As I said, Kopitar and Doughty etc are paycheck players with the Kings. They aren’t leaders, they won’t lead the young guys coming up anywhere. They certainly aren’t stars anymore.

Kings need to move on, and start rebuilding towards a team they envision to have to win a cup again. This current group of paycheck players isn’t going to win anymore.

They've already done this. This started last year with the Pearson trade, and certainly with the Muzzin deal. They've already moved on from the Cup teams that nobody wants to hear about anymore. They've said they cannot win any time soon. They just can't get rid of the people we want them to get rid of, so we're left watching this zombie team. They've got a handful of UFA's this year that should all be gone. The transition will continue, but it's going to be slow. That's the reality in a hard cap league.

Don't want ufas. Who's turning on Lizotte? Haven't seen anyone say that. Again, I must be confused. The players developing in other leagues are going to get effected by the suck? I wasn't advocating rushing players.


I don't get this illogical reasoning. The team is going to suck. Try out college kids here and there, and save money. Ufa is bull**** maybe that's why no one answered your question, cause your question was irrelevant to this teams problems.

Save money? They're currently one of the lowest spending teams in the league, in both cap hit and cash.
 

Sausages

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That’s where you are wrong though. You have to ask why 8 and 11 are not playing well, it’s the situation they are in. They are surrounded by guys barely able to hold a job in the NHL. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum and it absolutely is going to affect them.

No top player is playing well on this roster, and to think and different is either naive or blinkered because you prefer bashing these guys. Swap McDavid for Kopitar and he looks nowhere near the player he looks right now. Swap any defencemen for Drew and it’s the same story.

Put it this way, if either of them were traded to a contender this coming off season, then either start getting talked about the following year for the Norris or Selke, as appropriate. As our roster quality improves so will they.

So what if players do well elsewhere. I'd be happy for them to play competitive hockey in the last years of they're prime, they're wasting their time here over the next 5-6 years and their trade value is getting less day by day.
 
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DL solidified the roster to be here forever. That was his whole schtick. We keep having all these discussions about what they could've gotten when the run was clearly over after 14-15, when it doesn't matter. There weren't even any rumors about trade returns at the time, because DL wasn't thinking about it.

DL hasn’t been here for years. On the Kopitar contract he was overruled by AEG.

Anyhow it’s the same core, since DL was canned we’ve cycled the through 3 coaches and nothing has changed.
They've already done this. This started last year with the Pearson trade, and certainly with the Muzzin deal. They've already moved on from the Cup teams that nobody wants to hear about anymore. They've said they cannot win any time soon. They just can't get rid of the people we want them to get rid of, so we're left watching this zombie team. They've got a handful of UFA's this year that should all be gone. The transition will continue, but it's going to be slow. That's the reality in a hard cap league.

I don’t buy that they can’t get rid of them, Pearson and Muzzin aren’t going to affect the AEG bottom line so they were disposable.
 
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King'sPawn

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Feel free to shoot me down, but at this juncture I'd prefer to see Kopi and Doughty traded for as much youth/picks as possible and while rebuilding make the transition with some lesser talent with the leadership qualities which our current leaders lack.

I still recall with fondness in 2006/7/8 seeing a young group of exciting players, losing more than winning, but for the first time in the Kings history bringing real hope.

In December 2006 I was in a bar in SE Asia talking hockey with some Canadians who were dismayed that they had met King's fan. They were cracking up. I told them to keep an eye on the team and remember the name Kopitar. Time for that wheel to come full circle.

Honestly, being on these message boards, my intention is to just discuss topics, teach, etc.

I've been coming into this topic more irritated and less approachable than I've wanted, so I'm just going to avoid this topic altogether for now.

I'll just say I disagree with your stance.
 
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KingsFan7824

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DL hasn’t been here for years. On the Kopitar contract he was overruled by AEG.

Since DL went all in with Lucic, there was no thought about trading Kopitar after the 14-15 season. Then the team has a good record through the 15-16 season. What was the alternative end game with Kopitar? How much was DL going to negotiate down? If it was a $9m or $9.5m cap hit, was that going to be better? Kopitar could've walked. He had the leverage, not DL or AEG. Considering DL didn't trade anyone fro the Cup teams until King at the 2017 deadline, was he really going to let Kopitar go? His #1C that won the Cups for him? The guy that was part of the core that DL spent years developing? DL learned nothing from Richards, or the team in 14-15, and still went after Lucic. Even if he got overruled by AEG, Kopitar wasn't going anywhere either way.

Anyhow it’s the same core, since DL was canned we’ve cycled the through 3 coaches and nothing has changed.

I don’t buy that they can’t get rid of them, Pearson and Muzzin aren’t going to affect the AEG bottom line so they were disposable.

The Kings can be a country club, and nobody else can want the players that we're all sick of, at the same time. It's not necessarily one or the other. I believe both are true, and that's why we have to wait. Current management may be incompetent, but I doubt any GM could make the trades we want them to make. Not with the hard cap. You can't get Carter at 27, in the first year of an 11 year contract extension, and expect to be able to trade him 3 years later, with 7 years left. You can't trade for him to begin with in that situation if you're ever expecting to get out of it early. Find the 30+ year old with 5-7 years left on a contract that gets traded. Even Kessel had 3 years left when he was traded. If Malkin wasn't one of the players running the show in Pittsburgh, do they trade him coming off another 80 point season, for such a paltry return, despite being swept? I doubt it. If they didn't luck out with Tocchet as the head coach with the Coyotes, could they even have traded him? He turned down the deal to Minnesota. They might've had a tough time trying to find a place.
 

KingsFan7824

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I still recall with fondness in 2006/7/8 seeing a young group of exciting players, losing more than winning, but for the first time in the Kings history bringing real hope.

Keep in mind how old those guys were.

06-07: 24, 24, 19, 21
07-08: 20, 25, 22, 22, 25

One teenager, but he happened to have the frame of a more mature player. The prospects the Kings currently have with actual talent are basically all 20 or under, and none of them are built like Kopitar. None of them are ready to step in like Doughty. You're going to have to wait a year or two, even after this one, to get to where the Kings were in 06/07/08.

Not to mention they didn't have the contract situation back then that they have today. Nobody is looking to help the Kings. It's going to take some time. The organization is just killing time for the next little while. Unfortunately, they still make people pay actual money to watch the old dreck they're throwing out on the ice, but, capitalism. They're not going to give away every seat for free, so everyone has to make their choice.
 
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How much was DL going to negotiate down? If it was a $9m or $9.5m cap hit, was that going to be better? Kopitar could've walked. He had the leverage, not DL or AEG.

He’s stated publicly that the negotiations were far apart, “not even in the same ballpark” were DL’s words. Reports at the time were that they were a couple million apart. So you are looking at maybe an 8 year 64 million deal versus 80 million. Maybe it was 6 years 54 million?

I don’t buy that DL had zero leverage, just like with Doughty, I don’t think Kopitar was interested in living elsewhere other than the beach and enjoy anonymity. That’s why the demand for an 8 year contract in addition to a full no movement clause, which DL also resisted.

Then not long after that AEG/Luc (buddy is pat brisson) states publicly that Kopitar is deserving of a contract, cutting DL off at the knees in negotiations. I don’t think DL wanted a massive cap hit and term to give Kopitar. While DL ultimately caved, I don’t think he was in the driver seat in those negotiations.

The Kings can be a country club, and nobody else can want the players that we're all sick of, at the same time. It's not necessarily one or the other. I believe both are true, and that's why we have to wait. Current management may be incompetent, but I doubt any GM could make the trades we want them to make. Not with the hard cap. You can't get Carter at 27, in the first year of an 11 year contract extension, and expect to be able to trade him 3 years later, with 7 years left. You can't trade for him to begin with in that situation if you're ever expecting to get out of it early. Find the 30+ year old with 5-7 years left on a contract that gets traded. Even Kessel had 3 years left when he was traded. If Malkin wasn't one of the players running the show in Pittsburgh, do they trade him coming off another 80 point season, for such a paltry return, despite being swept? I doubt it. If they didn't luck out with Tocchet as the head coach with the Coyotes, could they even have traded him? He turned down the deal to Minnesota. They might've had a tough time trying to find a place.

Plenty of teams would want these players, just a matter of whether the Kings would accept the market value. Muzzin yielded a decent return, and probably the best trade since acquiring Williams or Stoll/Greene.
 
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KingsFan7824

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He’s stated publicly that the negotiations were far apart, “not even in the same ballpark” were DL’s words. Reports at the time were that they were a couple million apart. So you are looking at maybe an 8 year 64 million deal versus 80 million. Maybe it was 6 years 54 million?

I don’t buy that DL had zero leverage, just like with Doughty, I don’t think Kopitar was interested in living elsewhere other than the beach and enjoy anonymity. That’s why the demand for an 8 year contract in addition to a full no movement clause, which DL also resisted.

Then not long after that AEG/Luc (buddy is pat brisson) states publicly that Kopitar is deserving of a contract, cutting DL off at the knees in negotiations. I don’t think DL wanted a massive cap hit and term to give Kopitar. While DL ultimately caved, I don’t think he was in the driver seat in those negotiations.

DL gave Quick, Brown, and Gaborik bad contracts. He went all in in Kopitar's UFA year. Even if it was $64m over 8, that does that make it any better? Does that make the team any better? Is that $2m the difference between crap and contender? There's no contract for Kopitar at that point that would've been a positive, and DL wasn't going to let him go. It would've been completely out of character. Look what he did with Bishop.

Either way I think we were all going to be stuck watching and aging and overpaid Kopitar.

Plenty of teams would want these players, just a matter of whether the Kings would accept the market value. Muzzin yielded a decent return, and probably the best trade since acquiring Williams or Stoll/Greene.

And Muzzin had 1 year left on his contract, and was about to turn 30. That's not Carter between 2015(when DL wasn't rebuilding) and 2017.
 
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Ziggy Stardust

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Good lord, we still have people making excuses for Lombardi’s poor decision making after all these years? Since the same poster makes up scenarios of what Lombardi was about to do, maybe he can explain why he also attempted desperately to re-sign Lucic and why he opted not to use a compliance buyout when he had the opportunity to get out of a terrible contract with Mike Richards.

Those weren’t Luc/Blake/AEG calls, that’s on the previous GM. He certainly was in the driver’s seat when he made those calls.
 
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