2019-20 Kings News/Rumors

[King'sPawn]

Here lies the problem. Had we gotten the 2nd wave of players like were seeing around the league [2014 draft forward], there's no way were in this position we are today.We just didn't have the picks or made too risky moves to get that 3rd cup. Had DL use the same patience he used building the team, he may still have a job and we might be contending once again. Toffoli, Pearson and now Kempe are turning out to be big failures , when they were suppose to be consistent 20-25 goal scorers. This has hurt our team bigime.

Exactly.

There was this second generation of talent the Kings have been hanging their collective hats on. The Kings didn't have anyone under the age of 30 who could hold a candle to top line duties, and as we see, not really anyone under the age of 30 who can regularly handle top six duties.

Fans can keep bemoaning the retention of Kopitar and Doughty all they want. But for as underwhelmed everyone has been by washed up Brown and Carter, NOBODY between the ages of 20-29 has taken the spot from them, where we could move a player to get younger and keep the cycle going.

So Blake is left with:
A.
- Keeping Kopitar and Doughty in charge, and wait for the youth to step up and take a spot
- Endure the suck and draft better

B.
- Trade Kopitar, Doughty, et al for magic beans
- Overspend on UFAs like DL had to with Handzus over a decade ago
- Count on Toffoli and Kempe to lead the charge

You can argue the rebuild would be further along if the Kings chose to suck sooner, but you're still leaning on Toffoli and Kempe to be leaders up front if you are dropping your vets. And they would be leaders even after signing "bridge deals" after those vets peter off.

Option A calls for a lot more patience and is much more practical. If you're for Option B, you have to be able to name a couple journeyman players between 20-29 who you count on to be leaders through a rebuild.

 

[Choralone]

Yeah, this team is suffering from a "Lost Generation" effect. There's a huge age gap in mid-twenties quality players due to the absence of top picks and prospects for an extended number of years.

 

[bouncesonly]

https://www.bardown.com/the-la-king...odox-and-chaotic-drills-at-practice-1.1393939

"The training session ⁦LAKings starts with a kind of simulated match, in Kanata. Three teams, two pucks, two nets. Everyone plays at the same time. Never seen anything like it (in the NHL) before. Interesting."

That's what you call pure chaos, folks.

You can just imagine how limited the ice is with that many bodies in one confined area.

The drill is beneficial because it forces players to make quicker decisions with guys pressing in. Less area to work with means the puck has to essentially be on and off your stick, otherwise, you're getting smothered. It also does increase the chance of a collision, so the Kings better keep their heads up.

And what about the goaltender? Two pucks to watch out for with three teams buzzing around? My goodness.

 

[Bandit]

https://www.bardown.com/the-la-king...odox-and-chaotic-drills-at-practice-1.1393939

Yeah but did they get a f***ing ice cream cone after?

 

[bland]

Exactly.

There was this second generation of talent the Kings have been hanging their collective hats on. The Kings didn't have anyone under the age of 30 who could hold a candle to top line duties, and as we see, not really anyone under the age of 30 who can regularly handle top six duties.

Fans can keep bemoaning the retention of Kopitar and Doughty all they want. But for as underwhelmed everyone has been by washed up Brown and Carter, NOBODY between the ages of 20-29 has taken the spot from them, where we could move a player to get younger and keep the cycle going.

So Blake is left with:
A.
- Keeping Kopitar and Doughty in charge, and wait for the youth to step up and take a spot
- Endure the suck and draft better

B.
- Trade Kopitar, Doughty, et al for magic beans
- Overspend on UFAs like DL had to with Handzus over a decade ago
- Count on Toffoli and Kempe to lead the charge

You can argue the rebuild would be further along if the Kings chose to suck sooner, but you're still leaning on Toffoli and Kempe to be leaders up front if you are dropping your vets. And they would be leaders even after signing "bridge deals" after those vets peter off.

Option A calls for a lot more patience and is much more practical. If you're for Option B, you have to be able to name a couple journeyman players between 20-29 who you count on to be leaders through a rebuild.

Those aren't the only options, or at least your descriptions aren't complete.

The risk of retaining Kopitar and later Doughty was that you were spending dead naximum dollars because no GM, be it Lombardi or Blake, could turn nothing into something. Nobody predicted or should have rationally assumed that Toffoli, Pearson then Kempe would be anything other than complimentary players.

There were zero - absolutely zero cost-controlled assets coming in to supplement the high value veterans, and there was always going to be a long gap until the Kings got better picks, retained and developed them. The development part of the equation just started a few months ago.

I do think there is a lot of value in change for changes sake when you are this stale. There is no accountability here, and that will remain the case as long as the lifers are safe and secure. There are too damn many retirement contracts, and the cure was to resist them as soon as it was clear that the Cups were over, which was the summer of 2015. Management just didn't want to see it, and made decisions that added more years of frustration instead of nipping it in the bud.

 

[Brodeur]

https://www.bardown.com/the-la-king...odox-and-chaotic-drills-at-practice-1.1393939

We did a similar thing for my beer league on a holiday weekend when our regular games were postponed (although just two pucks and two teams). Definitely led to some hijinx, I was "ref" and one goalie let in two goals on simultaneous shots.

 

[KINGS17]

Exactly.

There was this second generation of talent the Kings have been hanging their collective hats on. The Kings didn't have anyone under the age of 30 who could hold a candle to top line duties, and as we see, not really anyone under the age of 30 who can regularly handle top six duties.

Fans can keep bemoaning the retention of Kopitar and Doughty all they want. But for as underwhelmed everyone has been by washed up Brown and Carter, NOBODY between the ages of 20-29 has taken the spot from them, where we could move a player to get younger and keep the cycle going.

So Blake is left with:
A.
- Keeping Kopitar and Doughty in charge, and wait for the youth to step up and take a spot
- Endure the suck and draft better

B.
- Trade Kopitar, Doughty, et al for magic beans
- Overspend on UFAs like DL had to with Handzus over a decade ago
- Count on Toffoli and Kempe to lead the charge

You can argue the rebuild would be further along if the Kings chose to suck sooner, but you're still leaning on Toffoli and Kempe to be leaders up front if you are dropping your vets. And they would be leaders even after signing "bridge deals" after those vets peter off.

Option A calls for a lot more patience and is much more practical. If you're for Option B, you have to be able to name a couple journeyman players between 20-29 who you count on to be leaders through a rebuild.

Kopitar and Doughty have been providing leadership over the last 4 or 5 seasons? Hmm, I missed seeing that one.

 

[King'sPawn]

Kopitar and Doughty have been providing leadership over the last 4 or 5 seasons? Hmm, I missed seeing that one.

Did you just completely overlook the points I made so you can make a pointless and sarcastic post?

Please feel free to discuss with others.

Those aren't the only options, or at least your descriptions aren't complete.

The risk of retaining Kopitar and later Doughty was that you were spending dead naximum dollars because no GM, be it Lombardi or Blake, could turn nothing into something. Nobody predicted or should have rationally assumed that Toffoli, Pearson then Kempe would be anything other than complimentary players.

There were zero - absolutely zero cost-controlled assets coming in to supplement the high value veterans, and there was always going to be a long gap until the Kings got better picks, retained and developed them. The development part of the equation just started a few months ago.

I do think there is a lot of value in change for changes sake when you are this stale. There is no accountability here, and that will remain the case as long as the lifers are safe and secure. There are too damn many retirement contracts, and the cure was to resist them as soon as it was clear that the Cups were over, which was the summer of 2015. Management just didn't want to see it, and made decisions that added more years of frustration instead of nipping it in the bud.

You're right and I apologize. I agree that cost-effective players is key.

I DO strongly disagree with making change just for the sake of change. If you make a directionless move, you have a meaningless message other than "We don't like the way things are, and we don't know why."

Lifers were NEVER safe and secure in my post. Ultimately, players in the system have to force their way onto the lineup, just the same way King and Nolan forced themselves into the lineup. Just the same way Voynov made it easier to trade Jack Johnson.

No GM worth their salt will trade away the top players who won the cup just because the team isn't as strong a contender as before. Notice that Quick is no longer "safe" even though he's universally revered as one of the best Kings goalies ever. Cal Petersen has stepped up in the organization. Once Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD, ANYONE can step up and be the #1 center, trade Kopitar. Nobody has overcome a now 35 year-old Dustin Brown who has frustrated you and me for the past 10+ years.

I think for the most part we're on the same page, but you feel a GM needs to make a move which is indefensible: trading away a core cup winner with absolutely nothing in the pipeline to replace him, all to start a rebuild a year after winning the cup. You'll be vetoed by ownership at best, with other consequences including unemployed.

 

[jfont]

Yeah but did they get a ****ing ice cream cone after?

Lt Dan was handing them out

 

[The Tikkanen]

Lt Dan was handing them out

Was it all scoops of vanilla, like the team?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Was it all scoops of vanilla, like the team?

You think you're getting vanilla ice cream if you leave Lt Dan unattended with a scoop?

 

[KingsFan7824]

Once Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD, ANYONE can step up and be the #1 center, trade Kopitar.

His contract basically solidified him as a lifetime King. By the time anyone is able to overstep Kopitar as the #1C, he'll be less tradable than he is today. By the same time, they will have slowly chipped away some more cap space, so it should be easy enough to absorb Kopitar as a #2, or even #3. Could even buy him out in 2023 if absolutely necessary, although doubtful.

 

[KINGS17]

Did you just completely overlook the points I made so you can make a pointless and sarcastic post?

Please feel free to discuss with others.

You continue to misrepresent my position by saying I advocated trading every vet. You constantly overlook the points I make. We have a fundamental disagreement on what should have happened, but I think what I described as what would likely happen today two or three years ago has come to pass. So, stick to your narrative and continue to be wrong about this.

 

[King'sPawn]

You continue to misrepresent my position by saying I advocated trading every vet. You constantly overlook the points I make. We have a fundamental disagreement on what should have happened, but I think what I described as what would likely happen today two or three years ago has come to pass. So, stick to your narrative and continue to be wrong about this.

Odd. Because I also said that until the infrastructure and youth is good enough to fill in for the vets, trading vets away is pointless.

So what have I been wrong about? Did I say the Kings were supposed to be playoff contenders at this point?

I've said make meaningful trades. At the right time. That players are more than assets.

I've never said "Carter/Martinez/etc will have higher value if you hang onto him."

I HAVE said that players like Toffoli, are of the generation who has failed to keep the Kings pipeline growing the way we wanted to, and he should be traded. Looks like he's on the block. Petersen is coming into his own, so the Kings can move a goaltender.

It's hilarious how you keep thinking you are the only one prescient about the organization's direction, yet can't see where others saw what was wrong with the organization.

Again, no GM would have been approved by ownership or employed if they tried to blow it up/rebuild in 2015 when you said they should have. Within the past previous seasons the Kings won two cups.

Lombardi had much better evidence supporting his rebuild, as he came in after the Kings missed the playoffs for years, and had only made it past the second round once in the Kings' lifetime.

Do you understand, even if you don't agree?

Did I misrepresent your stance at all?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[KINGS17]

Odd. Because I also said that until the infrastructure and youth is good enough to fill in for the vets, trading vets away is pointless.

So what have I been wrong about? Did I say the Kings were supposed to be playoff contenders at this point?

I've said make meaningful trades. At the right time. That players are more than assets.

I've never said "Carter/Martinez/etc will have higher value if you hang onto him."

I HAVE said that players like Toffoli, are of the generation who has failed to keep the Kings pipeline growing the way we wanted to, and he should be traded. Looks like he's on the block. Petersen is coming into his own, so the Kings can move a goaltender.

It's hilarious how you keep thinking you are the only one prescient about the organization's direction, yet can't see where others saw what was wrong with the organization.

Again, no GM would have been approved by ownership or employed if they tried to blow it up/rebuild in 2015 when you said they should have. Within the past previous seasons the Kings won two cups.

Lombardi had much better evidence supporting his rebuild, as he came in after the Kings missed the playoffs for years, and had only made it past the second round once in the Kings' lifetime.

Do you understand, even if you don't agree?

Did I misrepresent your stance at all?

Odd, because I have never said to rush a kid to the NHL. What I have said basically is you have to give to get, and that means trading some of your better players when the team just doesn't stack up as a contender. You can always find a UFA to be a "filler". You can lose just as easily without Kopitar, Carter, etc. as you can with them, and with a trade of at least one of them at the right time the Kings would have picked up several valuable assets.

I never said to start the rebuild in the 2014-2015 season. I was all for the Sekera trade in the 2014-15 season to take another crack at the cup. That is another misrepresentation of my position. I was not for blowing it up during the 2014-15 season.

I am not omniscient, but I think it was becoming obvious after losing 4 games to 1 in the 1st series of the 2015-16 season against San Jose that the ride was over.

I understand what you have said, and I simply don't agree. The frustrating part is the hyperbole of people saying I wanted to blow it up before I advocated the trades the Kings failed to make, and now they are going to have nothing to show for assets that were very valuable at the time.

I find it hard to understand the value of hanging onto good players when you simply don't have the assets around them to be a contender. You can find solid professional hockey players to be leaders and bring the kids along without handing out 8-year deals like they are candy.

 

[ibleedkings]

Sad that it takes an injury to get him out of the lineup.

 

[King'sPawn]

Odd, because I have never said to rush a kid to the NHL. What I have said basically is you have to give to get, and that means trading some of your better players when the team just doesn't stack up as a contender. You can always find a UFA to be a "filler". You can lose just as easily without Kopitar, Carter, etc. as you can with them, and with a trade of at least one of them at the right time the Kings would have picked up several valuable assets.

I never said to start the rebuild in the 2014-2015 season. I was all for the Sekera trade in the 2014-15 season to take another crack at the cup. That is another misrepresentation of my position. I was not for blowing it up during the 2014-15 season.

I am not omniscient, but I think it was becoming obvious after losing 4 games to 1 in the 1st series of the 2015-16 season against San Jose that the ride was over.

I understand what you have said, and I simply don't agree. The frustrating part is the hyperbole of people saying I wanted to blow it up before I advocated the trades the Kings failed to make, and now they are going to have nothing to show for assets that were very valuable at the time.

I find it hard to understand the value of hanging onto good players when you simply don't have the assets around them to be a contender. You can find solid professional hockey players to be leaders and bring the kids along without handing out 8-year deals like they are candy.

So you think it was obvious the ride was over in April, 2016, but argue the Kings should have traded Kopitar or let him walk instead of agreeing to an 8 year deal, which was done in January 2016.

You can't say two conflicting statements and say you were right.

UFAs is the least effective ways to construct a roster. I've said this countless times. You either overpay for qualified personnel or underpay to put people in a position to fail.

I would rather hold onto a player "too long" and encourage the youth to overtake a position than to depend on mercenaries and fool myself into thinking "all we need is good young youth, which we'll get at higher quantities if we suck faster."

It took five years since the last cup win for someone to take the 2C position from Carter, and that's because he's the #1 RW (with Brown).

This is where we disagree:
"What value is it hanging onto vets when you can't build a contender around them?"

vs.

"What value is trading away vets for youth when the organization hasn't shown the capacity or willingness to draft and develop them into the same roles?"

There was something far more pressing than diminishing returns. You can put out the fire, but you still have to turn off the oven.

 

[KINGS17]

So you think it was obvious the ride was over in April, 2016, but argue the Kings should have traded Kopitar or let him walk instead of agreeing to an 8 year deal, which was done in January 2016.

You can't say two conflicting statements and say you were right.

UFAs is the least effective ways to construct a roster. I've said this countless times. You either overpay for qualified personnel or underpay to put people in a position to fail.

I would rather hold onto a player "too long" and encourage the youth to overtake a position than to depend on mercenaries and fool myself into thinking "all we need is good young youth, which we'll get at higher quantities if we suck faster."

It took five years since the last cup win for someone to take the 2C position from Carter, and that's because he's the #1 RW (with Brown).

This is where we disagree:
"What value is it hanging onto vets when you can't build a contender around them?"

vs.

"What value is trading away vets for youth when the organization hasn't shown the capacity or willingness to draft and develop them into the same roles?"

There was something far more pressing than diminishing returns. You can put out the fire, but you still have to turn off the oven.

Yes, because at the time Kopitar was extremely inconsistent from season to season, and I felt Carter was fine as the 1C. Who knows what the Kings get for Kopitar in a trade, but I would have been wanting to see a young 2C, plus more in that type of trade. Unfortunately, the injuries have turned Carter into a shell of his former self.

The situation becomes even more obvious after re-signing Kopitar and the team continues its downward trend. That was the time to trade Carter. The Kings had already made their bed with the Kopitar contract. At least they could have traded Carter and acquired some much needed assets.

Each step of the way it was obvious the ride was over, but the Kings just kept doubling down. The Kovalchuk contract was simply the latest example of refusing to recognize it.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Sad that it takes an injury to get him out of the lineup.

Only way to get something is to play him. If he's a healthy scratch all the time, who is taking him at the deadline? If he's in there, at least he has a chance to show something(and even then, maybe nobody takes him). The only F's playing fewer minutes per game are Clifford and Wagner. Just like the losses, there's no problem with Lewis playing.

 

[funky]

In my opinion you need guys like Kopitar and Doughty leading a rebuild.

I understand some are pissed at the contract values but they are not hurting us at the moment and the cap is projected keep climbing as each Kopitar and Doughty start diminishing.

Yes we may have been able to trade them at one point for prospects, but saying that it would take a team with lots of cap space at the time and decent prospects. Maybe a team like Florida a few years ago for Kopitar but the problem is a team that has the money usually is either rebuilding themselves and not at the point to acquire a big piece and clear the prospect cupboard or that team has money do to a departed piece or two and no good prospects.

Any team that squires a Doughty or Kopitar for picks will be a high end contender and we’re stuck with late firsts. I also don’t believe the return package would be as high as we believe, it just never is.

the reason though I say we need guys like that is they play the longest, hardest minutes, against the best players in the league night after night. They are relied upon for both the majority of offense and the handling of the PK and toughest defensive assignments.

In all honesty neither Kopitar or Doughty have been given anybody in their same skill set to play with over the last half dozen years. We rave how A recycled defenseman from Vancouver with concussion issues was the best partner ever play with Doughty

kopitar has had Brown stapled to his hip his whole career and that is fine if Brown was the 3rd option on the line as he truely is a second line option on most teams.

no take either one of them out of the lineup and replace them with one of our highly toted prospects. Not one of our prospects for the next three years will be able to take on a roll like that. If they try and put one of those prospects in a roll like that they will get destroyed. We need these guys to help integrate our upcoming prospects. We did not draft Connor McDavid, we did not draftSidney Crosby, or a Mario who in their first years can take the reins and go.

Look at the best players in the league that were drafted hi. McKinnon took years to become what he is and he has Ranty beside him. Mathews is doing well but has a loaded top 6 to play with while Laine is a roller coaster

Hughes and Kakko struggle, Hischier and Patrick are not lighting the world in fire 3 years in, Eichel 5 years in is starting to really get it, Draisaitl has bypassed Ekblad and Reinhart but has Connor to help.

I am all for keeping Kopitar and dowdy just to save our young ones from getting demolished both physically and mentally on a nightly basis. I don’t care of their contracts are high. Without them we would be the 31st placed team by a wide margin. I look at the Oilers 10 year rebuild model that went no where. Can’t just keep throwing young pups in the fire.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I mean, even with his minutes/deployment, Kopitar is 11th in NHL scoring over the last decade, and every single one of the guys ahead of him is either generational or deployed strictly offensively.

Guys coming into our system rave about growing up watching Kopitar and Doughty.

You can't have many better veterans to learn from than homegrown multiple cup--and international gold medal--winners. Especially, as @funky points out, they exist to eat minutes/matchups while the youth come along.

This place isn't going to give Kopitar his due until he's long, long gone. It's become really apparent how underrated he's been his whole career; sadly, more by this fanbase than elsewhere.

 

[Johnny Utah]

TM is starting to baffle me.

Won’t sit Lewis or Kovy. Sits Toffoli - one of our best trade assets.

He won’t play Prohorkin.

Sits Wagner and Grunstrom.

 

[KINGS17]

I mean, even with his minutes/deployment, Kopitar is 11th in NHL scoring over the last decade, and every single one of the guys ahead of him is either generational or deployed strictly offensively.

Guys coming into our system rave about growing up watching Kopitar and Doughty.

You can't have many better veterans to learn from than homegrown multiple cup--and international gold medal--winners. Especially, as @funky points out, they exist to eat minutes/matchups while the youth come along.

This place isn't going to give Kopitar his due until he's long, long gone. It's become really apparent how underrated he's been his whole career; sadly, more by this fanbase than elsewhere.

This is highly debatable. I would rather have the youngsters learn from Dustin Brown than watch Kopitar break his stick over the crossbar 20 times a season. You can get less talented, but better leaders that are vets to eat minutes.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Kopitar is going to be an important top 6 player for the Kings for rest of his contract. And we have prospects coming up to finally add some talent to the forward group to help him out a little.
Doughty will still be our number one dman for the foreseeable future.

I don't see why some people have such a difficult time seeing the future value of Kopitar and Doughty to this team.

It's such a shortsighted way of thinking that just because they will be getting older that they will have zero value to this team in three years or so.
We have enough prospects to field one of the cheapest, youngest lineups in the NHL two years from now, it could be:

Kopitar-Kaliyev-2020 high pick.
Turcotte-Grundstrom-Kupari
Villardi-Thomas-Fagemo
Amadio-JAD-Wagner

Bjornfot-Dougty
Anderson-Walker
Durzi-Clague

Peterson
Campbell

I might have left off a name or two and obviously they aren't all going to make it. But that lineup is not completely out of the question. And if it is a lineup like that they will be dying to have players like Kopi and Doughty to spend money on to hit cap floor.