Line Combos: 2016-2017 Kings Roster

[USE Fi]

Pens are not an appropriate example. Their defense was quite questionable last year. They use their offense to take pressure off the defense. Every chance they get the puck they were breaking for the other end and put the Sharks on the heals. The Kings lean on their defense and break the puck out in a slow controlled manner. This is completely different and won't work for the Kings.

Forbort has had what, 5 years? He's going to be a top 4D by March? He was unable to outplay Gravel last year. Gravel? He's in the same boat. Remember Muzzin's learning curve? Martinez getting benched constantly? Are Gravel and Forbort going to be any different?

You don't have to be a complete team at the beginning of the year. Even if the Kings picked up another top 4 defender I still wouldn't call them a "contender". They would still have massive holes in the top 6 and at center. Right now the gap between where they are and "contender" is too large to make up at the deadline.

Still they were:
Pittsburgh: Goals Against Per Game:2.48 Rank 6
L.A Kings: Goals Against Per Game:2.38 Rank 3
They had pretty good stats!

 

[USE Fi]

Chart of the past 20 Cup winners and their rank in Goals Against that regular season.
2015-2016 Pitt 6th
2014-2015 Chicago 2nd
2013-2014 Los Angeles 1st
2012-2013 Chicago 1st
2011-2012 Los Angeles 2nd
2010-2011 Boston 2nd
2009-2010 Chicago 5th
2008-2009 Pitt 17th then 5th in playoffs
2007-2008 Detroit 1st
2006-2007 Anaheim 7th
2005-2006 Carolina 19th then 3rd in playoffs
2004-2005 Strike year-
2003-2004 Tampa 3rd
2002-2003 New Jersey 1st
2001-2002 Detroit 3rd
2000-2001 Colorado 3rd
1999-2000 New Jersey 7th then 1st in playoffs
1998-1999 Dallas 1st
1997-1998 Detroit 7th then 6th in playoffs
1996-1997 Detroit 2nd

Stats pasted from http://holdthepoint.com/

 

[AlphaBravo]

If there are no injuries, and the team improves their defense to offensive transition game, the Kings have as good a chance as any to winning a few rounds in the playoffs. Our team defensive game was not that bad last year, the problem was we were getting pinned in the defensive zone throughout the entire Sharks series. If even McNabb alone improves in that department (which I think he will), we should be a lot better. Also, the fact that we have more options for the bottom two pairings is great. Sutter can experiment with Gravel, Fobert, Greene, Scuderi, Gilbert, Troutman and see what works early in the season. We don't need any of these defensemen to be amazing, we just need them to be better at getting the puck out of the defensive zone.

 

[USE Fi]

I believe if old (Scuderi, Greene, Gilbert) cant do it i hope we could see something like
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Gravel
Forbort-Martinez
or
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Gravel
Martinez-Trotman

It they none of the new men cant play just roll
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
xxxxx-xxxxx

 

[The Tikkanen]

If Gravel and Forbort can't outplay Scuderi or Greene they don't deserve to be in the Kings organization any longer. Lombardi already has his moves mapped out, if the kids can't out play the vets they're gone, it's that simple. HF posters better quickly fall out of love with any young player while Lombardi and Sutter are in charge or you will be gravely disappointed. No player is just awarded ice time because he's a "top prospect".

 

[Omni Owl]

If Gravel and Forbort can't outplay Scuderi or Greene they don't deserve to be in the Kings organization any longer. Lombardi already has his moves mapped out, if the kids can't out play the vets they're gone, it's that simple. HF posters better quickly fall out of love with any young player while Lombardi and Sutter are in charge or you will be gravely disappointed. No player is just awarded ice time because he's a "top prospect".

Yeah but at the same time Gravel wasn't really given a fair shot last year with the big club when he showed some promise. I'm almost positive the team would have been better off with him in the lineup over Scuderi.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Pens are not an appropriate example. Their defense was quite questionable last year. They use their offense to take pressure off the defense. Every chance they get the puck they were breaking for the other end and put the Sharks on the heals. The Kings lean on their defense and break the puck out in a slow controlled manner. This is completely different and won't work for the Kings.

Forbort has had what, 5 years? He's going to be a top 4D by March? He was unable to outplay Gravel last year. Gravel? He's in the same boat. Remember Muzzin's learning curve? Martinez getting benched constantly? Are Gravel and Forbort going to be any different?

You don't have to be a complete team at the beginning of the year. Even if the Kings picked up another top 4 defender I still wouldn't call them a "contender". They would still have massive holes in the top 6 and at center. Right now the gap between where they are and "contender" is too large to make up at the deadline.

Yeah, and the Kings also made the conference final that year with Muzzin making mistakes, Ellerby playing 5 playoff games, Greene and Martinez either hurt or out of the lineup during both the regular season and playoffs, Mitchell out all year, and Scuderi even slowing down then. Plus Kopitar barely scored when we thought he was injured but he wasn't, and those playoffs were when Brown first started to forget how to score at all.

I'm not saying the Kings are a contender, or will be a contender. The fun is probably over with this version of the Kings. I'm going to allow myself to let the Kings mold into whatever they're going to be this year though. Gravel would even have a full season in the NHL to do whatever he's going to do, instead of the half season Muzzin had in 2013.

I'm prepared for a punted development year too. With Brown never going anywhere for the next half decade, who knows with Gaborik, Kopitar's $10m deal, whatever Toffoli will get, etc, it'll most likely be tough for the Kings to build a really solid team for years. Unless they get some luck and some cheap guys play above their pay grade, and I'm willing to let that possibility exist, even this season. YMMV.

 

[Trolfoli]

Still they were:
Pittsburgh: Goals Against Per Game:2.48 Rank 6
L.A Kings: Goals Against Per Game:2.38 Rank 3
They had pretty good stats!

Wait... did Justin Schultz just win the cup. Wanted to check on that.

 

[Trolfoli]

If there are no injuries, and the team improves their defense to offensive transition game, the Kings have as good a chance as any to winning a few rounds in the playoffs. Our team defensive game was not that bad last year, the problem was we were getting pinned in the defensive zone throughout the entire Sharks series. If even McNabb alone improves in that department (which I think he will), we should be a lot better. Also, the fact that we have more options for the bottom two pairings is great. Sutter can experiment with Gravel, Fobert, Greene, Scuderi, Gilbert, Troutman and see what works early in the season. We don't need any of these defensemen to be amazing, we just need them to be better at getting the puck out of the defensive zone.

I love this. Talking about winning in the playoffs then the next poster throws these combo's out there.

It's going to be a long year.

I believe if old (Scuderi, Greene, Gilbert) cant do it i hope we could see something like
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Gravel
Forbort-Martinez
or
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Gravel
Martinez-Trotman

It they none of the new men cant play just roll
McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
xxxxx-xxxxx

 

[The Tikkanen]

Yeah but at the same time Gravel wasn't really given a fair shot last year with the big club when he showed some promise. I'm almost positive the team would have been better off with him in the lineup over Scuderi.

Gravel will have to beat out Greene and Scuderi as a 5th/6th defensemen, 10 minutes a night or he doesn't make the team. No such thing as a fair shot, you do the most with the minutes the coach gives you.

 

[Herby]

I have to agree with Trolfoli (first time for everything right).

The Kings lack of depth is probably going to prevent them from seriously contending for the next couple of years.

The Kings would need a perfect storm type situation.

First off they need all of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Muzzin and Martinez to stay healthy.An injury to any one of them and it's over. An injury to Toffoli would also be tough to swallow, but they could possibly survive that. But the laughably bad lack of depth down the middle and on the back end is going to require all these guys to stay healthy.

Second, they need someone to step up and establish themselves as a #4 d-man. Don't throw metrics out there with McNabb, he played much of the year with the best defenseman in the world, on his own he has not shown to be anything more than a bottom pairing guy. Whether it's McNabb, Gravel or Forbort, someone needs to step up.

Same thing with the wingers, whether it's Gaborik, Pearson, Purcell, Brown. Someone needs to step up and be more than they are projected to be for this season.

 

[Fishhead]

I have to agree with Trolfoli (first time for everything right).

The Kings lack of depth is probably going to prevent them from seriously contending for the next couple of years.

The Kings would need a perfect storm type situation.

First off they need all of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Muzzin and Martinez to stay healthy.An injury to any one of them and it's over. An injury to Toffoli would also be tough to swallow, but they could possibly survive that. But the laughably bad lack of depth down the middle and on the back end is going to require all these guys to stay healthy.

Second, they need someone to step up and establish themselves as a #4 d-man. Don't throw metrics out there with McNabb, he played much of the year with the best defenseman in the world, on his own he has not shown to be anything more than a bottom pairing guy. Whether it's McNabb, Gravel or Forbort, someone needs to step up.

Same thing with the wingers, whether it's Gaborik, Pearson, Purcell, Brown. Someone needs to step up and be more than they are projected to be for this season.

Agreed on all counts.

The first two cups can be attributed to the rebuild, solid drafting, smart FA signings, and trading for the right guy at the right time.

A third cup in the next few years, if it happens, will be lightning in a bottle. Young guys will have to play over their heads and the team will have to get hot at the right time.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It helped a lot having young guys with little experience step in for both Cup runs.

In 2012 the Kings had 8 players who were 25 or younger playing a major role.

In 2014 there were 9 players who were 25 or younger playing pivotal roles.

That number was down to about 5-6 players in 2016, and two of those players (Andreoff and Shore) only appeared in 1 playoff game this year.

As guys get older, the Kings have to be better at drafting and developing players who can be ready in 2-3 years and beyond.

 

[lumbergh]

I have to agree with Trolfoli (first time for everything right).

The Kings lack of depth is probably going to prevent them from seriously contending for the next couple of years.

The Kings would need a perfect storm type situation.

First off they need all of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Muzzin and Martinez to stay healthy.An injury to any one of them and it's over. An injury to Toffoli would also be tough to swallow, but they could possibly survive that. But the laughably bad lack of depth down the middle and on the back end is going to require all these guys to stay healthy.

Name a team this is not the case for. The main reason a team underperforms over a season is due to injuries.

Every Cup run is a perfect storm. You assemble a great team and still only have maybe a 20% chance of winning. Ask the Capitals about that.

Second, they need someone to step up and establish themselves as a #4 d-man. Don't throw metrics out there with McNabb, he played much of the year with the best defenseman in the world, on his own he has not shown to be anything more than a bottom pairing guy.

I still don't understand this idea. He played with Drew Doughty for most of the year, therefore he's not even a #4? That doesn't make any sense. Actually look at his metrics. Doughty was more effective paired with McNabb than not paired with McNabb. The only other player he played with for over 100 minutes 5 on 5 is Luke Schenn, and he even helped Luke Schenn look decent.

 

[HookKing]

Name a team this is not the case for. The main reason a team underperforms over a season is due to injuries.

Every Cup run is a perfect storm. You assemble a great team and still only have maybe a 20% chance of winning. Ask the Capitals about that.



I still don't understand this idea. He played with Drew Doughty for most of the year, therefore he's not even a #4? That doesn't make any sense. Actually look at his metrics. Doughty was more effective paired with McNabb than not paired with McNabb. The only other player he played with for over 100 minutes 5 on 5 is Luke Schenn, and he even helped Luke Schenn look decent.

Yes it does. There wasn't anyone else that could play with Drew until Scuderi came along and he didn't even belong in the NHL. McNabb is nowhere near a top 4. Doughty's his guardian angel.

Schenn looked decent? Sure, that's why the big right-hander was re-signed.

 

[Kingsfan1]

I think management learned their lesson and them waiving Greene means they are not going to be married to players . I dont see Greene or Scuderi making it on opening night .

Our defense will look closer to

Mcnabb-Doughty
Muzzin- Martinez
Gravel-Gilbert/Trotman ( played 18 mins a night in Boston)
Forbort

Forwards i see

Gaborik-Kopitar-Purcell
Pearson-Carter-Toffoli
King-Lewis/Dowd-Brown
Andreoff-Dowd/Shore-Latta
Long shot Bjorkstrand to play bottom 6.
Clifford and some other pieces are definitely getting moved or waived .

I find it intriguing that Quentin Shore was given an invite . Can anyone tell me anything about his game and potential ?

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

As guys get older, the Kings have to be better at drafting and developing players who can be ready in 2-3 years and beyond.

Much harder to do when we keep throwing high picks away on rentals

 

[Legionnaire]

Much harder to do when we keep throwing high picks away on rentals

And it's even harder not to throw them away when some of the key players you traded for helped you win two Stanley Cups.

I hear what you are saying but it really comes down to the old adage "Laugh now and cry later." The missing keys to the kingdom has not necessarily been the first round picks as much as it has been those later round picks that at one time we were hitting on. And now?...Not so much.

 

[USE Fi]

Kings have drafted really well on other rounds than first round also.

2006
Round
1st (not 3rd) TREVOR LEWIS
3rd JEFF ZATKOFF
2007
2nd WAYNE SIMMONDS
4th ALEC MARTINEZ
4th DWIGHT KING
2008
2nd SLAVA VOYNOV
2009
2nd KYLE CLIFFORD
7th JORDAN NOLAN
7th NIC DOWD
2010
2nd TYLER TOFFOLI
5nd KEVIN GRAVEL
2011
3rd ANDY ANDREOFF
3rd NICK SHORE
4th MICHAEL MERSCH

 

[Legionnaire]

Well, Lewis was a first round pick. However, other than that, it seems to me that there is a fair drop in potential top 6 F or top 3 D talent, other than Toff, since 2008. That is going to be almost nine years ago! Haha. Your list also ends five years before today's team. Surely, if we were drafting well, there would be someone pushing for a top six or top 3 spot since then. Five years post draft is 23/24. They should be on the team regardless of development.

 

[USE Fi]

Well, Lewis was a first round pick. However, other than that, it seems to me that there is a fair drop in potential top 6 F or top 3 D talent, other than Toff, since 2008. That is going to be almost nine years ago! Haha. Your list also ends five years before today's team. Surely, if we were drafting well, there would be someone pushing for a top six or top 3 spot since then. Five years post draft is 23/24. They should be on the team regardless of development.

Yes you are right it takes lot longer to get players to actually play for your team if they are not 1st round.
Isn`t that 6 years? Toffoli was drafted 2010

Oh, i know what you mean...sorry

 

[Kingsfan1]

There is also the perspective that you cannot waste prime years of Kopitar and Doughty in a mini rebuild . So you keep going for it . This is why im slightly ok with trading away so many picks. Players like them dont come around often and will be difficult for the Kings to replace.

Only thing disapointing about the Kings drafting is not going for BPA and picking who they believe fits Kings hockey and they end up being players outdated for the modern NHL.

 

[mrkolice]

kopi already in fine form, just scored a hat-trick against poland as slovenia won 6-1, in a qualifying tourney for 2018 olympics.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I have to agree with Trolfoli (first time for everything right).

The Kings lack of depth is probably going to prevent them from seriously contending for the next couple of years.

The Kings would need a perfect storm type situation.

First off they need all of Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Carter, Muzzin and Martinez to stay healthy.An injury to any one of them and it's over. An injury to Toffoli would also be tough to swallow, but they could possibly survive that. But the laughably bad lack of depth down the middle and on the back end is going to require all these guys to stay healthy.

Second, they need someone to step up and establish themselves as a #4 d-man. Don't throw metrics out there with McNabb, he played much of the year with the best defenseman in the world, on his own he has not shown to be anything more than a bottom pairing guy. Whether it's McNabb, Gravel or Forbort, someone needs to step up.

Same thing with the wingers, whether it's Gaborik, Pearson, Purcell, Brown. Someone needs to step up and be more than they are projected to be for this season.

And we can find examples of all of that in 2012, 2013, and 2014. This year won't be any different from that standpoint than any of those seasons, except it doesn't feel the same going, because the context of the team is different, and we've seen what's happened the last 2 years. Plenty of questions yet to be answered.

 

[lumbergh]

Yes it does. There wasn't anyone else that could play with Drew until Scuderi came along and he didn't even belong in the NHL. McNabb is nowhere near a top 4. Doughty's his guardian angel.

Being that Doughty played with McNabb for the majority of the season and had a Norris-winning year, your statement doesn't make a lot of sense. I would reason that if Doughty had to play the whole year with a bottom-pairing anchor (see Scuderi), no way he wins the Norris. Again, the numbers:

Doughty 5 on 5
With Scuderi: Goals for % 56%, Corsi for % 47%
With McNabb: Goals for % 59%, Corsi for % 60%

Doughty won the Norris in part because he is an absolute puck possession monster and plays a great 200 foot game. McNabb helped him do that. It's pretty telling that Doughty's Goals for % and Corsi for % go up with McNabb vs. without McNabb.

Schenn looked decent? Sure, that's why the big right-hander was re-signed.

I totally agree that Luke Schenn is not a good NHL defenseman, but explain this:

Schenn with McNabb 5 on 5 Goals for %: 60%, Corsi for % 54%

This narrative that McNabb sucks makes for a good story, but the data tell a different story.