2016-2017 Kings Roster Talk Part III

[KingsFan7824]

Here's the moral of the story so people don't think I am just picking on Kopitar. When people say if Lombardi wouldn't have paid him that some other GM would have given it to him, let some other GM give it to him.

In theory, yes. In theory, the Kings probably should've traded Kopitar no later than the 2015 draft. Still had a year on his $7m contract, so could probably get something good for him. Should probably trade Doughty sooner rather than later. Should've traded Quick right after the 2012 Cup win, before the extension. Obviously trading Brown after the 2012 Cup when he was red hot would've been the way to go.

The only issue with that is you'll find very few GM's that work that way. Or even can work that way. There's a cap, there's a certain amount teams have to spend, other GM's are looking for the best deal too, etc. Not a lot of teams are going to be the Florida Marlins, who tear it all down like days after they win a championship.

It's easier to sit on the outside and say don't pay this or that guy. Moneyball is great, but the A's haven't won a championship. Haven't even come all that close.

 

[Fishhead]

In theory, yes. In theory, the Kings probably should've traded Kopitar no later than the 2015 draft. Still had a year on his $7m contract, so could probably get something good for him. Should probably trade Doughty sooner rather than later. Should've traded Quick right after the 2012 Cup win, before the extension. Obviously trading Brown after the 2012 Cup when he was red hot would've been the way to go.

The only issue with that is you'll find very few GM's that work that way. Or even can work that way. There's a cap, there's a certain amount teams have to spend, other GM's are looking for the best deal too, etc. Not a lot of teams are going to be the Florida Marlins, who tear it all down like days after they win a championship.

It's easier to sit on the outside and say don't pay this or that guy. Moneyball is great, but the A's haven't won a championship. Haven't even come all that close.

Any GM who operated like this would make it harder on himself to win a cup anyways. Loyalty is a two way street, especially in a sport like hockey where a close-knit group is essential to winning a notoriously difficult trophy to win. It's impossible to build that if the group knew they could be traded at any minute.

 

[KINGS17]

In theory, yes. In theory, the Kings probably should've traded Kopitar no later than the 2015 draft. Still had a year on his $7m contract, so could probably get something good for him. Should probably trade Doughty sooner rather than later. Should've traded Quick right after the 2012 Cup win, before the extension. Obviously trading Brown after the 2012 Cup when he was red hot would've been the way to go.

The only issue with that is you'll find very few GM's that work that way. Or even can work that way. There's a cap, there's a certain amount teams have to spend, other GM's are looking for the best deal too, etc. Not a lot of teams are going to be the Florida Marlins, who tear it all down like days after they win a championship.

It's easier to sit on the outside and say don't pay this or that guy. Moneyball is great, but the A's haven't won a championship. Haven't even come all that close.

I think it would have been jumping the gun on a few of these. Brown certainly was not going to be traded after the 2012 cup run. He didn't get his current contract until he was on pace for a 30-goal season during the lockout year had the season gone 82 games.

Gaborik was a mistake. I think Dean should have looked at moving Quick after the cup run in 2014 or after 2015. That would have been a very difficult decision.

I do think some of this kind of stuff will get resolved in the next CBA. The owners will likely try to cut the max contract length from 8 to 5 years.

I agree hardly any GMs don't work this way, but maybe they should.

 

[Tadite]

I don't think you can money ball hockey. It was never about contracts and development but about measuring what it takes to win differently then the rest of MLB and hence having the ability to access the incredible amount of baseball minor leagues and journeymen who didn't get quality shots at the big show because of a focus on old fashioned statistics (average and RBI's). You could then buy those guys for more effect on the game with less money. That in turn means you could buy one or two big time guys on the UFA market when needed.

With the NHL turning into a league with every even close to top-6 player getting long-term contracts movement is way down and more importantly we don't have as many forgotten players running around hoping to be signed but ignored because of faulty measurement.

The whole "trade them when the price is high thing" doesn't work in the real world. A world where no top level player becomes a UFA you can't fix a problem on a team without trading. Which in turn creates a problem. You also can't assume picks are worth all that much. Heck, this year is suppose to be the worst in a decade. Can you imagination the poor guy with the 1st overall? Waking up with no Ovie, no Crosby, or no Laine? Whereas next year they could have had them?

 

[LAKings88]

I don't think you could have moved Quick. Unless you believed Jones was the guy.

A lot of hindsight coming into this thread.

Doughty to me is a more interesting conversation.

With his next contract demand, LA better have a plan.

He could bring back some solid pieces but would be hard to replace on the back end.

If LA needs a quick retool. Doughty and Carts could bring back a half a team of infusion.

 

[damacles1156]

My only beef is the Kopitar/Gabo contracts, to some extent Mike Richards as well.

There were strong signs that Mike Richards was finished in this league, also why not use that Buyout ? it was a get out of jail free card.

Gabo is also an easy one if you ask me. Gabo is not Hossa, if Hossa is not scoring he at least provides very good 200ft of hockey. Gabo is useless if he is not scoring or making offense. That's 4.9 million of wasted roster space, Brown at least provides something for his 5.8 million salary.

No way I would have handed Gabo that contract.

Kopitar,

Love the guy, franchise center, would not have signed him for a 10 million dollar cap hit, Crosby makes less. Now Crosby signed his contract at a different time. Still though, Kopitar is now one of the highest paid players in the league.

I don't think I would have agreed to make him so. Especially 28/29 years of age heading into the wrong side of 30.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

My only beef is the Kopitar/Gabo contracts, to some extent Mike Richards as well.

There were strong signs that Mike Richards was finished in this league, also why not use that Buyout ? it was a get out of jail free card.

Gabo is also an easy one if you ask me. Gabo is not Hossa, if Hossa is not scoring he at least provides very good 200ft of hockey. Gabo is useless if he is not scoring or making offense. That's 4.9 million of wasted roster space, Brown at least provides something for his 5.8 million salary.

No way I would have handed Gabo that contract.

Kopitar,

Love the guy, franchise center, would not have signed him for a 10 million dollar cap hit, Crosby makes less. Now Crosby signed his contract at a different time. Still though, Kopitar is now one of the highest paid players in the league.

I don't think I would have agreed to make him so. Especially 28/29 years of age heading into the wrong side of 30.

But at the same time, that's easy to say when you're not DL. With Brown, he was just challenged to be a leader, and responded by absolutely beasting out down the stretch and thru the playoffs. First Kings captain to raise the cup, one of only 2 players in the league to regularly have 50+ points and 200+ hits (Ovechkin!), had a sweetheart deal on his previous contract...read the signing thread. Most everyone was ok with the obvious slight overpayment for all of that.

The Gaborik one...no one would have let Gaborik walk after the playoffs we had and the chemistry he exhibited with Kopitar after going so long trying to find another top-sixer. The length of the deal was intended to keep the cap down. Most of us were definitely cautious about it, and you were vocal that it was a bad idea so props to you, but keep in mind the team context at the time--right after the 2nd cup in three years, we handle our one clear weakness by signing Gaborik. It seemed like a no brainer. We can talk about the structure all we want, but at that point there were no signs of collapse.

Kopi is the trickier one and I'm not going to dive into all that again, but I don't like the comparison to Crosby because 1. like yous aid, different time and 2. dont' neglect the amount he's made from being the face of the league via sponsorship deals and media. He's making an addition 4.5 million a year thanks to Reebok et. al.

 

[damacles1156]

It's all pointless now, what's done is done.

Hopefully the GM's fight tooth and nail to get max contract length down to Five years, or even Six would be better.

Save themselves, from themselves.

Have to hope that the Kings have hit home-runs with Amadio/Kempe/Brodzinski/Gravel/Ladue.

Also need to draft some Goalies, hit home-runs with them. The Kings losing Bartosak really hurt. Especially since Gibson/Dillon turned out to be duds. It's amazing how poorly Zatkoff has played behind an improved Kings Defense.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Would be cool if the NHL got non-guaranteed contracts adopted into the next CBA, just like the NFL.

Then we might see some of these older guys on long term deals trying a bit harder to save their jobs.

 

[KINGS17]

I don't think at all Gaborik is like Kopitar so I have to disagree on the specific case but I DO agree with the general idea.

True, Kopitar is making a $10M cap hit for the next 8 years.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Would be cool if the NHL got non-guaranteed contracts adopted into the next CBA, just like the NFL.

Then we might see some of these older guys on long term deals trying a bit harder to save their jobs.

I think that's something a lot of us see eye to eye on, really.

That will be the nastiest discussion point of all though, imo. NHLPA isn't leaping to save GMs from themselves. Though I guess a discussion point would be you can have any sort of term on a contract you want if it's not guaranteed (but can't artificially decrease the cap on one like before this lockout).

 

[sinister6000]

i hope Dean starts to move some of the dead weight off this team. Rather then just adding guys to the roster, trade some of the guys that are not getting it done to other teams. I'm talking about the 3rd and 4th liners.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

My only beef is the Kopitar/Gabo contracts, to some extent Mike Richards as well.

There were strong signs that Mike Richards was finished in this league, also why not use that Buyout ? it was a get out of jail free card.

Gabo is also an easy one if you ask me. Gabo is not Hossa, if Hossa is not scoring he at least provides very good 200ft of hockey. Gabo is useless if he is not scoring or making offense. That's 4.9 million of wasted roster space, Brown at least provides something for his 5.8 million salary.

No way I would have handed Gabo that contract.

Kopitar,

Love the guy, franchise center, would not have signed him for a 10 million dollar cap hit, Crosby makes less. Now Crosby signed his contract at a different time. Still though, Kopitar is now one of the highest paid players in the league.

I don't think I would have agreed to make him so. Especially 28/29 years of age heading into the wrong side of 30.

Agreed about Kopitar and Gaborik. I was hoping Kopi would be at least 1 mil less and 2 less years. He's a few years removed from scoring 30 goals, which that money should command. Yes, he's helped led the Kings to 2 Cups and top center, but that kind of money should also be for someone who can score 30 goals.

Gaborik was coming off the 2014 Cup and had 14 playoff goals - tops on the Kings. I can see where he earned that and he still had 27 goals in 2014-15. I think if he was let go, people would have been furious.

The one that makes me cringe the most, is Greene. He was already banged up. The cap hit was acceptable, but 2 too many years.

 

[KHenry14]

That will be the nastiest discussion point of all though, imo. NHLPA isn't leaping to save GMs from themselves. Though I guess a discussion point would be you can have any sort of term on a contract you want if it's not guaranteed (but can't artificially decrease the cap on one like before this lockout).

The thing is, there's no way Don Fehr will agree to shorter deal length's without a major give back to the players. And I just don't see that happening. And GM's need to be careful about only offering shorter term deals because of potential collusion allegations. Something Fehr knows a LOT about.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Agreed about Kopitar and Gaborik. I was hoping Kopi would be at least 1 mil less and 2 less years. He's a few years removed from scoring 30 goals, which that money should command. Yes, he's helped led the Kings to 2 Cups and top center, but that kind of money should also be for someone who can score 30 goals.

Gaborik was coming off the 2014 Cup and had 14 playoff goals - tops on the Kings. I can see where he earned that and he still had 27 goals in 2014-15. I think if he was let go, people would have been furious.

The one that makes me cringe the most, is Greene. He was already banged up. The cap hit was acceptable, but 2 too many years.

What difference does it make if Kopitar scores 30 goals or not if he's putting up 65-70 points a season? He's obviously not getting either this season but the hope is he's at least a 65-70 point guy for the next 4-5 seasons.

Bowman is the one that screwed everything up with the Toews and Kane contracts. I remember reading he thought the cap would be $75 million by this season because of the new Canadian tv deal. Obviously that $2 million this season would've been huge.

 

[KINGS17]

The thing is, there's no way Don Fehr will agree to shorter deal length's without a major give back to the players. And I just don't see that happening. And GM's need to be careful about only offering shorter term deals because of potential collusion allegations. Something Fehr knows a LOT about.

Don Fehr talks a big game, but there is nothing he can do when the owners are perfectly fine with canceling an entire season. A few players will get paid during a lockout, but the vast majority make nothing during a lockout. Thus, time is always on the owner's side. It has been proven multiple times the fans will return after a lockout.

Last time the big sticking point was the 50/50 split, and the owners won hands down. The owners will win again whether it is a shorter max contract length or the elimination of guaranteed contracts. The 50/50 split is going nowhere.

The owners simply are not going to pay a player past his prime as if he is still in his prime. To be honest, that's what is best for the fans and the game. The best players should be making the most money.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Good or bad we had no choice on the Kopitar deal. If we didn't give him what he wanted, he would have walked and gotten paid more in the UFA market. Also, with no Kopitar, we might as well do a full blown rebuild because, without a number one center, this team is not winning a cup. Also, I don't think anyone would have predicted Kopitar having such a horrible season. No one expects him to be a 30 goal scorer, but getting around 20 goals, and 60-70 points was an easy expectation with him.

Honestly, with so much money tied to Brown, Kopitar and Gaborik, if their drop off in play continues, we have no choice but to get a new coach that will develop a system that will make them more productive. Otherwise, we will be mediocre for another 5-8 years.

 

[Herby]

I wouldn't have resigned Gabo at all. Would have let him walk after the Cup win.

Dean Lombardi made sure the janitor was retained, no way was he letting the leading goal-scorer in the playoffs go.

The mistake was the term, but Dean had no choice, when you have over $8m invested in an AHL player and a #7 d-man he had to extend the length with Gabby to lower the hit.

Gaborik at 3-4 years and a bigger hit would have been fine.

 

[Stimpythecat]

Good or bad we had no choice on the Kopitar deal. If we didn't give him what he wanted, he would have walked and gotten paid more in the UFA market. Also, with no Kopitar, we might as well do a full blown rebuild because, without a number one center, this team is not winning a cup. Also, I don't think anyone would have predicted Kopitar having such a horrible season. No one expects him to be a 30 goal scorer, but getting around 20 goals, and 60-70 points was an easy expectation with him.

Honestly, with so much money tied to Brown, Kopitar and Gaborik, if their drop off in play continues, we have no choice but to get a new coach that will develop a system that will make them more productive. Otherwise, we will be mediocre for another 5-8 years.

This is where I am at. Once the other long term contracts were on the books, the Kings were committed to the style of play centered around Kopitar and had no choice but to give Kopitar the contract he wanted.

 

[Herby]

Kings and Hawks had no choice but to pay Kopitar, Toews and Kane.

You can't let players like that walk, plus all three have accomplished and done so much for thoe franchises that it's easier to overpay a bit for an in-house guy.

 

[damacles1156]

i hope Dean starts to move some of the dead weight off this team. Rather then just adding guys to the roster, trade some of the guys that are not getting it done to other teams. I'm talking about the 3rd and 4th liners.

Honestly, what exactly is it they are not doing ?

They are doing their job.

 

[KINGS17]

Good or bad we had no choice on the Kopitar deal. If we didn't give him what he wanted, he would have walked and gotten paid more in the UFA market. Also, with no Kopitar, we might as well do a full blown rebuild because, without a number one center, this team is not winning a cup. Also, I don't think anyone would have predicted Kopitar having such a horrible season. No one expects him to be a 30 goal scorer, but getting around 20 goals, and 60-70 points was an easy expectation with him.

Honestly, with so much money tied to Brown, Kopitar and Gaborik, if their drop off in play continues, we have no choice but to get a new coach that will develop a system that will make them more productive. Otherwise, we will be mediocre for another 5-8 years.

They should have traded Kopitar when he wouldn't sign a reasonable deal in the off season after the team had missed the playoffs in 2015. This team would have been better off than it is today with the haul Kopitar would have brought in a trade and Carter still here along with Doughty and Quick.

It's been shown time and again that the other side of 30 years of age is not kind to the point production of most forwards. It does not appear Kopitar will be the exception to the rule.

 

[Winger23]

I was irritated that the kings continued to play their system after they lost the guys that made it work. Guys like Mitchell, regher, scuderi before he dropped off. Guys like stoll and Williams. Now it occurred to me with all the bottom line grinders on the team they have no choice but to continue to play defensively. They can't open it up because they don't have enough skilled guys on the team.

Gabby is imo the worst contract on the team, way worse than browns. If he's not scoring he's useless. Brown while still overpaid can still do things.

They would be a contender imo with another physical shut down defender and to replace gabby with a true 1st line winger. Unfortunately it's impossible since no one would want gabby, and there are no assets to get what they need. I don't see this team improving anytime soon.

 

[The Tikkanen]

With Vegas coming the roster pool is gonna shrink. The Kings could lose Brown or Gaborik to Vegas and buy out the player who does not get selected and be ready to rock and roll. The issue would then be who is going to take their place? The free agent pool this summer is awful so you'd be relying on trades. This is gonna be another very interesting summer for LA.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Brown would have to waive his NMC to be exposed in the draft right?

Why would he do that?