2016-2017 Kings Roster Talk Part III

[KingTrouty]

I'm not saying it is true; however, the regular season play always left a lot to be desired. So they underachieved until March or they overachieved at the perfect time.

I mean, getting hot at the right time and overachieving could be argued as the same thing.

Remember, even if this were the case, it wouldn't lead to the removal of the banners that now reside in the Staples rafters.

I think they had regular seasons of gliding and a lack of intensity (speaking specifically of 2012-14), and then ramped it up, as a unit (coaching, players), when the time arose. Call it "shifting momentum," "getting hot at the right time," what have you. I won't call it overachieving simply because it was sustained for more than a season.

But fair enough brother, we just see it differently.

 

[BigKing]

I think they had regular seasons of gliding and a lack of intensity (speaking specifically of 2012-14), and then ramped it up, as a unit (coaching, players), when the time arose. Call it "shifting momentum," "getting hot at the right time," what have you. I won't call it overachieving simply because it was sustained for more than a season.

But fair enough brother, we just see it differently.

I'm not necessarily saying it was overachieving, just something to think about as we move further away from that winning time period.

Similar regular seasons following the three year run but, obviously, nowhere near the results. I have no issues though chalking it up to "flipping a switch" when it mattered.

If the latter is to be believed, however, then they have massively underachieved since 2014 and that is a problem that can't continued to be ignored at the management/coaching level.

 

[KingTrouty]

I'm not necessarily saying it was overachieving, just something to think about as we move further away from that winning time period.

Similar regular seasons following the three year run but, obviously, nowhere near the results. I have no issues though chalking it up to "flipping a switch" when it mattered.

If the latter is to be believed, however, then they have massively underachieved since 2014 and that is a problem that can't continued to be ignored at the management/coaching level.

I can't disagree with this, BK. We have underachieved. We've been given the tools to succeed and have fallen flat. It's sad. We've sacrificed our future to further the glory of those three years, and for naught. And it isn't due to a lack of players, or moves. DL gave this team legitimate chances to make noise and at least contend.

The "winning time period" involved a completely different roster, so this, to me, is going around in circles.

We have, no doubt, underachieved since the last cup. I refuse to place that on Dean, as he has done as much he bloody can to give us a chance. If it falls on anyone, it's Sutter and/or the players.

With respect, BK.

 

[kings11]

I can't disagree with this, BK. We have underachieved. We've been given the tools to succeed and have fallen flat. It's sad. We've sacrificed our future to further the glory of those three years, and for naught. And it isn't due to a lack of players, or moves. DL gave this team legitimate chances to make noise and at least contend.

The "winning time period" involved a completely different roster, so this, to me, is going around in circles.

We have, no doubt, underachieved since the last cup. I refuse to place that on Dean, as he has done as much he bloody can to give us a chance. If it falls on anyone, it's Sutter and/or the players.

With respect, BK.

As our defense aged and Dean tried to replace them, this team stagnated because the replacements just weren't good enough. Doughty is a franchise player and a top 3 dman. Muzzin and Martinez have been beyond terrible this season with the worst part being its mental which is harder to overcome than a physical injury. Willie, Rob, Robyn and Slava were huge losses, but we might have hit the ultimate jackpot with 3 rookie defensemen that appear to be as good as the FO believes...

Fans want to blame Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik..etc... for their lack of scoring but we've been in more games than i can remember but our defense has given up horrendous turnovers that have directly led to losses mostly as a result of the Muzzin/Martines pairing, while these pass few weeks McNabb has cost us at least 2 crucial games by himself. Having suffered major injuries to Quick, Kopitar, and Toffoli, most would have expected us to be near the bottom of the standing but we're just 1 point out of the playoffs...

Dean has managed to rebuild on the fly while maintaining a playoff contending team, where the Kings go from is anyones guess. "IF" the rookie Dmen turn out to be as good as we hope then we will field a damn good team, now all we need is for kids like Kempe, Amadio, Mersch, and Brodzinski to pan out and we could perhaps give it one last try before a full on rebuild....

 

[KingTrouty]

As our defense aged and Dean tried to replace them, this team stagnated because the replacements just weren't good enough. Doughty is a franchise player and a top 3 dman. Muzzin and Martinez have been beyond terrible this season with the worst part being its mental which is harder to overcome than a physical injury. Willie, Rob, Robyn and Slava were huge losses, but we might have hit the ultimate jackpot with 3 rookie defensemen that appear to be as good as the FO believes...

Fans want to blame Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik..etc... for their lack of scoring but we've been in more games than i can remember but our defense has given up horrendous turnovers that have directly led to losses mostly as a result of the Muzzin/Martines pairing, while these pass few weeks McNabb has cost us at least 2 crucial games by himself. Having suffered major injuries to Quick, Kopitar, and Toffoli, most would have expected us to be near the bottom of the standing but we're just 1 point out of the playoffs...

Dean has managed to rebuild on the fly while maintaining a playoff contending team, where the Kings go from is anyones guess. "IF" the rookie Dmen turn out to be as good as we hope then we will field a damn good team, now all we need is for kids like Kempe, Amadio, Mersch, and Brodzinski to pan out and we could perhaps give it one last try before a full on rebuild....

Wonderful post, 11, (for what's that worth, coming from me). I agree completely.

I want to echo what you touched on... our young trio on D are absolute knockouts, imo, and absolutely worth getting giddy over. As you said, the rest of the team needs to fall in lockstep (rook FWDs and vets, alike).

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I thought we may have overachieved in 12 in a way, every guy on the roster was playing at the peak of their games. The roster was much less impressive than the '14 roster imo but we absolutely slaughtered everyone mercilessly. I obviously think in retrospect we were better than our opponents anyway, but everything broke right. I don't take that as an affront.

However, in '13 and '14 I think we played well, not overachieving. The 13 roster was banged up to **** by the time the WCF rolled around but they really fought for everything they had, same in '14. I don't think we overachieved at all, we just aren't/weren't built for breezing thru the regular season, we were built to be a hard out over a series of games, not december pond hockey (Washington Capitals, anyone?)

 

[Kingspiracy]

As our defense aged and Dean tried to replace them, this team stagnated because the replacements just weren't good enough. Doughty is a franchise player and a top 3 dman. Muzzin and Martinez have been beyond terrible this season with the worst part being its mental which is harder to overcome than a physical injury. Willie, Rob, Robyn and Slava were huge losses, but we might have hit the ultimate jackpot with 3 rookie defensemen that appear to be as good as the FO believes...

Fans want to blame Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik..etc... for their lack of scoring but we've been in more games than i can remember but our defense has given up horrendous turnovers that have directly led to losses mostly as a result of the Muzzin/Martines pairing, while these pass few weeks McNabb has cost us at least 2 crucial games by himself. Having suffered major injuries to Quick, Kopitar, and Toffoli, most would have expected us to be near the bottom of the standing but we're just 1 point out of the playoffs...

Dean has managed to rebuild on the fly while maintaining a playoff contending team, where the Kings go from is anyones guess. "IF" the rookie Dmen turn out to be as good as we hope then we will field a damn good team, now all we need is for kids like Kempe, Amadio, Mersch, and Brodzinski to pan out and we could perhaps give it one last try before a full on rebuild....

I agree to an extent, but Regehr wasn't without his issues, I could have sworn at the time 90% of this site thought he sucked donkey balls

 

[Herby]

Defensive replacements are fine other than replacing Slava. By the end of 14 it was pretty obvious that Mitchell, Regehr and Greene were coming to the end of their careers. Mitchell lasted a season and a half, Regehr lasted a season and Greene is on his last legs.

Problem is the forwards who have either outright left (Williams, King, Richards, Stoll) or are shells of their former self (Gaborik, Brown, Kopitar (? ) from that season to this.

Stoll and Richards were replacement level players, so no drop from Shore, Dowd, Andreoff. If Dowd can sure up his defense he actually has a chance to be the best 3rd line center the Kings have had in years.

Gaborik scored at a 44 goal regular season pace for the Kings during those playoffs, and some of the goals were massive goals, game 1 vs Anaheim (To force OT and win it in OT), game 2 vs. Anaheim (less than a minute in), game 7 vs. Chicago (late to force OT), and Games 2 and 5 of the finals scoring in the 3rd to force OT. I've always been a huge Gaborik fan, and having watched him closely his entire career, that may have been the best hockey Gaborik ever played, and that's saying something because he was a legit star in his prime who would have scored a lot more goals if he wasn't playing for Jacques Lemaire. I think he knew that could be his last good shot at it and he was a man on a mission, but the whole point is the Kings have basically lost a 40 goal star 1st line winger from that team and have not been able to replace him.

That is the single biggest reason, IMO. Look how many close, 1 goal games the Kings have lost.

 

[KINGS17]

Gaborik was clutch in the 2014 playoffs, as was Williams.

The Kings don't have any player filling that role today. Maybe Pearson and Toffoli can grow into it, but with Kopitar playing the way he is now, it won't matter if he doesn't step up and earn his money.

 

[Herby]

2012 had the 3-0 leads in all the series and the 10 game win streak on the road.

But 2014 had the 0-3 comeback and the three Game 7 wins on the road. It's close but I'd take 2014 because I think the roster was better and the competition was significantly better. I think all four teams we played in 2014 were better than any of the four we played in 2012.

 

[kingsfan28]

2012 had the 3-0 leads in all the series and the 10 game win streak on the road.

But 2014 had the 0-3 comeback and the three Game 7 wins on the road. It's close but I'd take 2014 because I think the roster was better and the competition was significantly better. I think all four teams we played in 2014 were better than any of the four we played in 2012.

This is so true.
2014 :SJ,ANH,CHI,NYR
2012 :VAN,STL,ARZ,NJ

Still think, injuries and all, if we got past the Hawks in 2013, we'd have beaten Boston.

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

This is so true.
2014 :SJ,ANH,CHI,NYR
2012 :VAN,STL,ARZ,NJ

Still think, injuries and all, if we got past the Hawks in 2013, we'd have beaten Boston.

2012 - The beginning of the glory years. The domination of this 2012 team was delicious. A team firing on all cylinders.
2013 - This 2013 team battled hard and even though they fell in the WCF to Chicago, their fierce will to win despite injuries made me proud of this team. Yes, they might have beaten Boston in the SCF, but those injuries took such a toll on them that they were pretty spent by then.
2014 - Talk about resilience and the will to win! Down 0-3, 3 Game 7s, that ability to come back from multi-goal deficits again and again was impressive. They had the skill and the health to convert that sheer will to win into actual winning. Gaborik was something else, what a perfect deadline acquisition, like Carter in 2012. The end of the glory years.

Defensive replacements are fine other than replacing Slava. By the end of 14 it was pretty obvious that Mitchell, Regehr and Greene were coming to the end of their careers. Mitchell lasted a season and a half, Regehr lasted a season and Greene is on his last legs.

Problem is the forwards who have either outright left (Williams, King, Richards, Stoll) or are shells of their former self (Gaborik, Brown, Kopitar (? ) from that season to this.

Stoll and Richards were replacement level players, so no drop from Shore, Dowd, Andreoff. If Dowd can sure up his defense he actually has a chance to be the best 3rd line center the Kings have had in years.

Gaborik scored at a 44 goal regular season pace for the Kings during those playoffs, and some of the goals were massive goals, game 1 vs Anaheim (To force OT and win it in OT), game 2 vs. Anaheim (less than a minute in), game 7 vs. Chicago (late to force OT), and Games 2 and 5 of the finals scoring in the 3rd to force OT. I've always been a huge Gaborik fan, and having watched him closely his entire career, that may have been the best hockey Gaborik ever played, and that's saying something because he was a legit star in his prime who would have scored a lot more goals if he wasn't playing for Jacques Lemaire. I think he knew that could be his last good shot at it and he was a man on a mission, but the whole point is the Kings have basically lost a 40 goal star 1st line winger from that team and have not been able to replace him.

That is the single biggest reason, IMO. Look how many close, 1 goal games the Kings have lost.

Really good point. While Dean has had some questionable moves and some good ones (Vinny was slow but skilled, Regehr was slow but made the opponent pay,) he's had to deal with a steep drop in play by so many players. How could we have predicted that the games of Stoll, Richards, Gaborik, Brown would drop so dramatically? Add to that every year some players have rough years, it's a given, but for it to happen to star players Kopitar, Muzzin and Toffoli at the same time is debilitating to a team.

 

[kings11]

In a change of topic to quell some of this boards infighting, I've decided to bring up the expansion draft again and an updated list of who we should protect and who should be exposed...
8 skaters total
Anze Kopitar
Jeff Carter
Tyler Toffoli
Tanner Pearson
Drew Doughty
Derek Forbort
Jake Muzzin
Alec Martinez
Goalie
Jonathan Quick

while we exposed and in some cases pry for a miracle...
Dustin Brown
Marian Gaborik
Nic Dowd
Nick Shore...***
Trevor Lewis...***
Jordan Nolan
Kyle Clifford
Andre Andreoff
Brayden McNabb
Ben Bishop...***
Jeff Zatkoff
Jack Campbell
With the asterisks showing who's likely to be plucked away by the LVGK

 

[HeadInjury]

I agree with your 8 players. The obvious choice to select to me is Lewis since he's under contract for 3 more years and Vegas can't fill up their roster with young cheap players given that they have to draft a certain amount of salary.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

My hope is that the Kings can package up some assets and players in order for Vegas to do them a favor.

 

[HeadInjury]

My hope is that the Kings can package up some assets and players in order for Vegas to do them a favor.

If I'm Vegas, I take the player I want in the expansion and then say, "So Dean, what will you give us if we take Gaborik off your hands?"

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

Bob Miller is on NHL Network right now via phone.

 

[kings11]

If I'm Vegas, I take the player I want in the expansion and then say, "So Dean, what will you give us if we take Gaborik off your hands?"

I honestly think LV takes Ben Bishop and builds a solid, young defense around him...

That would create a much welcomed logjam at defense and finally allow us to make a trade with the few teams that do lose a young or valuable Dman...

Drew Doughty
Derek Forbort
Jake Muzzin...***
ALec Martinez...***
Paul LaDue
Kevin Gravel
Brayden McNabb...***
Matt Greene

 

[HookKing]

Why would Vegas take Bishop? Unless DL offered them something in addition that would be less than what it would take to replace Lewis or Dowd. I can't see them taking Shore over Dowd.

 

[tsanuri]

I honestly think LV takes Ben Bishop and builds a solid, young defense around him...

That would create a much welcomed logjam at defense and finally allow us to make a trade with the few teams that do lose a young or valuable Dman...

Drew Doughty
Derek Forbort
Jake Muzzin...***
ALec Martinez...***
Paul LaDue
Kevin Gravel
Brayden McNabb...***
Matt Greene

Bishop is a UFA. So when they could just sign him without using a pick.

 

[HookKing]

Bishop is a UFA. So when they could just sign him without using a pick.

He ain't signing there, no way no how.

 

[tsanuri]

He ain't signing there, no way no how.

As a UFA they can't take him and say you're ours.

 

[Reaper45]

Why would Vegas take Bishop? Unless DL offered them something in addition that would be less than what it would take to replace Lewis or Dowd. I can't see them taking Shore over Dowd.

Why wouldn't they? It's better to sign Bishop than Fleury imo.

 

[HeadInjury]

Bishop was a Vezina finalist last year. I think he'd prefer being on a contender, than on an expansion team.

 

[tsanuri]

There are obviously some people that don't understand the expansion draft. Vegas can sign a UFA from your team early and use that as their pick. But they can't pick a UFA and force them to sign with them.So he'd have to want to go their for him to be the pick from us.