Marc Staal's offensive production in junior hockey was significantly better than Zborovskiy's and that's before we account for the fact that Sudbury were a low scoring team while Regina scores at will. Absolutely nothing you say is based in fact. Only what you want to be true.
2016-17 Rangers Prospects Thread - Part IV (Stats in Post #1; Updated 5.30)
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Marc Staal's offensive production in junior hockey was significantly better than Zborovskiy's and that's before we account for the fact that Sudbury were a low scoring team while Regina scores at will. Absolutely nothing you say is based in fact. Only what you want to be true.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Staal averaged .64 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. Zborovskiy averaged .63 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. That must not be based in facts.
And besides, Staal was a very high pick, a few seasons into his career he was trending towards a player who could score 30 points per game had a chance to be a 1D. Then he had an eye injury, and he lost all his ability to skate, pass the puck, shoot, all his offensive instinct, but for the back half of his career he's been a pretty decent middle pairing defenseman. You are missing the point that was made or intentionally avoiding the point that was made to make this into a comparison of who was a better junior hockey player. I never claimed his career path will follow Staal's. I claimed his prime is somewhere around current Staal.
Staal averaged .64 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. Zborovskiy averaged .63 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. That must not be based in facts.
Maybe next time when you try to call someone out for not using facts you should you research if what you want to be the facts are true.
And besides, Staal was a very high pick, a few seasons into his career he was trending towards a player who could score 30 points per game had a chance to be a 1D. Then he had an eye injury, and he lost all his ability to skate, pass the puck, shoot, all his offensive instinct, but for the back half of his career he's been a pretty decent middle pairing defenseman. You are missing the point that was made or intentionally missing the point that was made to make this into a comparison of who had better junior stats. I never claimed his career path will follow Staal's. I claimed his prime is somewhere around current Staal.
There are more numbers to go off of than Draft +2 regular season. You know this, yes? Staal's draft and +1 years blow Zborovskiy's out of the water. Then Staal was practically PPG in the playoffs his +2 year. Again, that's before going into the major disparities in offensive talent on each team.
I'm almost certain that you were talking about him as a second pairing defenseman three months ago. Now it's just average third pairing defenseman?
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
You are just trying to drive home a faulty narrative. Can you stop trying to compare his junior career to Staal? Staal was one of the best prospects in the sport at that age. He's not as good of a prospect as Staal was and his peak will likely not reach Staal's peak. No one said it would, so I think its clear you are only making that comparison to avoid from the topic at hand. I said his peak could be current Staal, a player who's declined from his best. I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to twist my opinion, you do a poor job of it and its see through.
eco's bones
Registered User
Staal averaged .64 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. Zborovskiy averaged .63 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. That must not be based in facts.
And besides, Staal was a very high pick, a few seasons into his career he was trending towards a player who could score 30 points per game had a chance to be a 1D. Then he had an eye injury, and he lost all his ability to skate, pass the puck, shoot, all his offensive instinct, but for the back half of his career he's been a pretty decent middle pairing defenseman. You are missing the point that was made or intentionally avoiding the point that was made to make this into a comparison of who was a better junior hockey player. I never claimed his career path will follow Staal's. I claimed his prime is somewhere around current Staal.
Staal's offensive skills even before the concussion and the eye injury were always a bit underwhelming to me. He was great with his long reach and quick little passes defending in his own end before the injuries but after not so much. His offensive instincts have always lagged behind the rest of his game--always. He's too hesitant when it comes time to make a creative play and he often mishandles the puck.
Zborovskiy if he makes it will be anywhere between a 4 and a 7 stay at home guy. He is not going to be a puck moving D and he's not going to be a big point producer. It's not in his DNA. He might turn out to be a very good player but he ain't going to become nearly what Skjei is becoming. I would bet that Graves turns out to be a better player too.
Staal averaged .64 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. Zborovskiy averaged .63 PPG in his 19/20 year old season. That must not be based in facts.
This is a disingenuous comparison. Staal played on a team not nearly as offensively gifted as Zborovskiy and still out-produced him. Other than a 25-game stretch at the start of this season Zborovskiy has contributed very little offensively throughout his WHL career despite playing on a powerhouse. What did he have, 5 points in his final 35 games this year while his team scored like 5+ per game?
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Well, sure, I agree, but I didn't start the comparison. I was accused of not using facts, yet this person clams the offensive production wasn't close when it was about as close as can be. That person was wrong on the facts, so I proved that, although I wasn't using that to say he was the same caliber of prospect as Staal.
Staal was a much better prospect, he was one of the best prospects in the game. I never said otherwise, I never said he will be as good as prime Marc Staal who really was an absolute beast in most facets of the game. I compared him to current Marc Staal who is a much worse player. Why I even need to explain this is ridiculous. It's very clear what I said.
If someone was to say prospect "A" or "B" could have a prime similar to current Rick Nash, I'd hope someone wouldn't move goalposts and start talking about how Nash was the best goal scorer in the game at one point and a #1 overall pick. That kind of stuff is just irrelevant.
denominator
Registered User
This is why I don't like comparisons - they're way too easy to take out of context. I think what PB is trying to say is that Zborovskiy can eventually fill the role that Staal is in now; which I agree with.
Zborovskiy projects to be a middle or bottom pairing defenceman that can eat minutes on the penalty kill. He's not going to be a PP specialist, he's not going to put up points, and he's not the classic puck-moving defenceman you want in a top-pairing guy. He'll be a reliable, affordable, depth player that teams need to win championships.
Keep in mind that the Pats acquired Josh Mahura from the Rebels at the trade deadline. Mahura played the last 34 games of the regular season with the Pats. I think its safe to say that Mahura took over the role Zborovskiy was playing for the first 38 games. I can't say for sure as I don't know the team well enough, but my guess is that Mahura played top-2 minutes with Hobbs with Zborovskiy slotted into middle-2 minutes with Harrison in a shutdown role. I would also wager that Zborovskiy didn't see any PP time in the second half of the season once Mahura was acquired.
Zborovskiy projects to be a middle or bottom pairing defenceman that can eat minutes on the penalty kill. He's not going to be a PP specialist, he's not going to put up points, and he's not the classic puck-moving defenceman you want in a top-pairing guy. He'll be a reliable, affordable, depth player that teams need to win championships.
Keep in mind that the Pats acquired Josh Mahura from the Rebels at the trade deadline. Mahura played the last 34 games of the regular season with the Pats. I think its safe to say that Mahura took over the role Zborovskiy was playing for the first 38 games. I can't say for sure as I don't know the team well enough, but my guess is that Mahura played top-2 minutes with Hobbs with Zborovskiy slotted into middle-2 minutes with Harrison in a shutdown role. I would also wager that Zborovskiy didn't see any PP time in the second half of the season once Mahura was acquired.
- Sep 1, 2010
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this.
don't know any of the truth in it,
but it reminds that, just looking at the box score and cumulative stats, leaves out much detail and context
and all the discussion above, along with hundreds of other examples (St.Croix ... )
remind us that 99% of the time (except for maybe consistenly low scoreres, and very exceptional prospects), Juniors stats tell us nothing about who that player will be in NHL
Zil
Shrug
- Feb 9, 2006
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- 43
I worry that Zboro is the type of defenseman that feels very safe to coaches despite not fitting the modern game. We don't need another guy who backs in all the time and constantly throws the puck up the boards to the other team.
If he can stop the other team from carrying the puck into the zone and move it out quickly to our forwards, then great. But we don't need another guy who spends his whole shift prepping to block a shot.
If he can stop the other team from carrying the puck into the zone and move it out quickly to our forwards, then great. But we don't need another guy who spends his whole shift prepping to block a shot.
denominator
Registered User
I don't entirely disagree. And I certainly would not be advocating taking a player like Zborovskiy in the first round.
However, there is definitely a role in the modern NHL for a player that is the prototypical "defensive defenseman" [Kris Russell, Michael Stone, Karl Alzner, Nick Hjalmarrson, etc]. Those kind of depth guys are not the guys you salivate over as prospects, but on a decent contract and in the right situation they can be great assets.
That's not to say that I think Zboro is Kris Russell. Nor do I think he's Marc Staal, or anyone else. I think he fills a great role on a deep team and can translate that to the NHL level.
Aside from Hjalmarrson, all of the players you named are bad NHL defensemen and exactly the kind of players that the Rangers need to get away from loving so much. Even still, their numbers were a lot better in juniors than Zborovskiy's. Even by the standards of mediocre 3rd pairing shutdown defenseman, Zborovskiy is way behind the curve.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
This is exactly what I expected to happen. He'll be hated by the people who judge defensive defenseman only on their corsi, unless he gets to the NHL and has fluky advanced stats like McIlrath, and in that case people will claim he's better than he is. Until then though, he'll just be casted as some big plug who can't play "the modern NHL game", as if there's only one type of player that can succeed in the NHL. Its an uphill road for someone like this with a segment of the fan base. If he was 5'9 and projected to have a similar ceiling with a different skill set, a lot of people would like him more than they do now.
Gordon Bombay
HFNYR Head Coach
- Oct 13, 2006
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I know advanced stats are the holy grail to most posters on here nowadays but is it really like that with fans off this website? Granted I'm not a young buck anymore but I don't know anyone out of my friends who watch this team that follow that stuff. I'd imagine it's like that mostly everywhere.
Regarding Zboro, I think most guys are afraid he'll mold into a Girardi, Staal, Klein type. Which once he makes it those 3 guys will probably be gone and if this team is constructed right he'll be one of 2 guys that have that mold on the back end. It's not so bad to have 2 guys like that on your defense but it's bad when you have 4 like we do now.
Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
Incredible display by Rouyn-Noranda today. Chicoutimi has one shot on net over the last 27 minutes of game time. 
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I myself don't know anyone outside of this website who thinks like that, but I was referring to fans on this website and social media. There is definitely a segment of our fan base who thinks like that, as you had even mentioned.
This is completely besides the point even. Let's say you're right. That analytics are wrong about evaluating defensemen and guys in this mold actually are good at preventing offense. Zborovskiy doesn't measure up to them. Kris Russell had 26 goals in his pre-draft season. Zborovskiy has 17 in his entire WHL career, playoffs included.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
Gropp is playing tonight, but he's not playing with Kolesar and Barzal. They have him being centered by Alex True. I'm OK with this. True and Gropp looked good together when Barzal was out earlier in the season.
Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
Gropp did not get any ice time during Seattle's first PP. That really blows, as pre-injury he was on PP1. They ran two lines during the PP just now. Barzal centered both of them and played the entire 2 minutes. Frustrating that Barzal can come back from illness and never come off the ice during the PP, yet Gropp doesn't even get a chance.
Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
That could be. But PP hockey is generally not physical hockey. I really wish they would let him out there on the PP and have him stand in OV's spot ready to rip wristers....like he does so often.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
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I didn't want to be the one to say it because I don't watch the player but......
It's not even this. Girardi and Staal are bad defensemen. Not just defensive defensemen, bad defensemen. But they're bad defensemen in a sneaky, quiet way that makes them extremely predictable, which NHL coaches absolutely adore in defensemen. This especially applies to Girardi.
So if this is a player that's going to come in and be a predictable sieve, yes, that's not a player I want anywhere near my team.
Well, there seems to be a disconnect at the term "puck moving D". Every defenseman has to be able to move the puck in this game. If they can't, they do not belong in the NHL. There's a medium between Erik Karlsson and Hal Gill.
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Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
Seattle has Adams playing RW with Gropp and True. That kind of sucks, because Adams is a pretty unproductive CHL player. I'm hoping they can find someone else to run out there with Gropp & True in the 2nd period. Gropp's new line is BIG. True is 6'5", Gropp is 6'3", and Adams is 6'2".
Revel
Dark Sky Enthusiast
Regina playing with fire. Down 2-1 in the series to Swift Current....but was winning 2-0 after the 1st period tonight. Then proceed to allow 19 shots in the 2nd period and let Swift current tie the game. Zboro was on ice for both goals against.
Looks like Regina just scored in the 3rd to grab the lead again.
Looks like Regina just scored in the 3rd to grab the lead again.
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