Speculation: 2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread IV

[aufheben]

I get it. Having the puck is the best defense.

But, for me, that alone doesnt make Stralman worth his asking price.

On the flip side, if the team has the puck so much when Stralman is on the ice, why has the goal scoring prowess of the team been relatively stagnant? And more importantly, why are Stralman's offensive numbers pretty abysmal?

The team actually scored more during the season when he was on the ice (2.28/60) rather than off (2.19/60), FYI. Then compare that to his partner...the Rangers' goals per/60 were nearly half a goal higher (2.42/60) when Marc Staal was off the ice, rather than on (2.04).

He's not gonna be Paul Coffey, but he's been a very positive player for this team.

 

[Tawnos]

Fairly low. I don't see what we'd have to offer, really. I doubt they'd move the #1 for players like Nash and/or Staal.

I have no earthly idea why Florida would be looking to move that pick anyway unless they think Ekblad is redundant with Gubranson and Reinhart/Bennett/Draisaitl would be redundant with Huberdeau and Tallon's looking to move down to where the wingers are.

 

[bernmeister]

If Morin can be had, I'd push hard. Acquiring Morin and keeping Stralman would be big for this team.

We'd still need to go about finding a 2 or 3 C and a 4th LW, but we'd (ideally) have nice, young LW depth in Kreider, Hags, and Morin. I'd love that move. Even the RW would be pretty stacked going into this year. The main thing would be finding (or promoting) a capable C.


Even if Stralman walks, we'd have a spot to bring in some kind of PMD.

What about
rights to Stralman and Kristo
for
Morin and Rundblad?

Stralman wants long term deal with stability = chicago check
Kristo throw in righty w/visible offensive skill, a project but possible upside

Rundblad = righty, still developinga project but possible upside
Morin = fit for NY replaces Pouilot, and not wanted by Q in Chicago.

If Stralman doesn't sign then 2 future 2nds, years to be agreed to after 2015?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

What about
rights to Stralman and Kristo
for
Morin and Rundblad?

Stralman wants long term deal with stability = chicago check
Kristo throw in righty w/visible offensive skill, a project but possible upside

Rundblad = righty, still developinga project but possible upside
Morin = fit for NY replaces Pouilot, and not wanted by Q in Chicago.

If Stralman doesn't sign then 2 future 2nds, years to be agreed to after 2015?

The rights to Stralman are worthless because teams can talk to him now and just sign him next week.

 

[Hire Sather]

I don't know why people are so impatient with this stuff. 12 teams in the league have signed players to deals since the SCF ended. That's it. We aren't the slowest. We are equal with 17 other teams.

Its just very confusing to read that Moore wants to come back and to "keep it simple" get according to Brooks they haven't offered him a contract. I don't understand it. No logical reason for that.

Pouliot wants a multi year deal and there is interest from many teams. I feel there is no risk in giving him a 2-3 year deal. The cap hit he gets will be easy to trade if we choose to after next season.

Stralman and Boyle I can understand losing. I do feel the same way about Boyle's contract as I do Pouliot's, but if Boyle wants a bigger role its time to move on, sadly.

When I made my statement it was also about the past few years as well. They dragged their feet on the Hank deal when it should've been done last offseason. They end up paying him about as much as anyone could have imagined, so why did they wait? Same with Girardi. Why did that have to wait until midseason?

Staal is in dreamland if he thinks he'll get a new contract this summer. He should, but they will let it drag and drag for no good reason.

I wonder which RFA will be the training camp holdout this season.

 

[17futurecap]

I don't know why people are so impatient with this stuff. 12 teams in the league have signed players to deals since the SCF ended. That's it. We aren't the slowest. We are equal with 17 other teams.

Think it has a lot to do with the agents getting to speak to teams a week before July 1 so more news has come out compared to previous years.

Agents can put it out the media guys, hey fyi I have talked to 10 teams that have interest in my client to draw up more interest.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

The team actually scored more during the season when he was on the ice (2.28/60) rather than off (2.19/60), FYI. Then compare that to his partner...the Rangers' goals per/60 were nearly half a goal higher (2.42/60) when Marc Staal was off the ice, rather than on (2.04).

Meh. This can just be circumstantial. Who else was on the ice? Where was the faceoff? What was the situation of the game? Staal's importance is on the defensive side of the ice, not the offensive, anyway. I like Stralman a lot, but in my opinion he's being overvalued now, to the point where everyone thinks he's better than Staal and Girardi. Again, the guy had a great playoff run, stood out constantly, and that's the last memory that sticks in people's brains.

 

[bernmeister]

Congratulations. As usual, you have just decimated the defense.

I would pose to you that safe = death.

Girardi will not get younger, only more banged up.
A more mobile version of Girardi would be a plus.
We must move Girardi and Nash if we want cap space for Stamkos in 2 years, if there is a good deal, don't wait on either.
We need offense. In this particular scenario we got Kadri.

Congrats, you again provide me an opportunity to look good

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Berglund just signed a 3 year deal.

Let's hope it's reasonable so Brass doesn't ask for $5M.

EDIT: 3 years/$3.7 AAV

26 y/o C, 14 goals, 32 points = $3.7M AAV?

Brass

26 y/o C, 18 goals, 45 points = X AAV?

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Berglund just signed a 3 year deal.

Let's hope it's reasonable so Brass doesn't ask for $5M.

EDIT: 3 years/$3.7 AAV

Great numbers!

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Great numbers!

Yeah, I guess. It means Brass likely asks for $4.5M

 

[bernmeister]

Well, we have two 2nds in 2015 now - so I would offer something like #59 + TB's 2015 2nd.

2015 is supposedly deep draft.
Sure that's our best play?

 

[Doctyl]

I would pose to you that safe = death.

Girardi will not get younger, only more banged up.
A more mobile version of Girardi would be a plus.
We must move Girardi and Nash if we want cap space for Stamkos in 2 years, if there is a good deal, don't wait on either.
We need offense. In this particular scenario we got Kadri.

Congrats, you again provide me an opportunity to look good

Destroying this team now for the unlikely possibility of getting Stamkos in 2 years is not really the best idea

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I would pose to you that safe = death.

Girardi will not get younger, only more banged up.
A more mobile version of Girardi would be a plus.
We must move Girardi and Nash if we want cap space for Stamkos in 2 years, if there is a good deal, don't wait on either.
We need offense. In this particular scenario we got Kadri.

Congrats, you again provide me an opportunity to look good

Bern, we need offense, but not at the expense of our defense.

Defense wins in all sports.

 

[aufheben]

Meh. This can just be circumstantial. Who else was on the ice? Where was the faceoff? What was the situation of the game? Staal's importance is on the defensive side of the ice, not the offensive, anyway. I like Stralman a lot, but in my opinion he's being overvalued now, to the point where everyone thinks he's better than Staal and Girardi. Again, the guy had a great playoff run, stood out constantly, and that's the last memory that sticks in people's brains.

It's an average over the whole season. They scored more 5-on-5 with Stralman on the ice than not, which is what his question was about.

 

[Tawnos]

When I made my statement it was also about the past few years as well. They dragged their feet on the Hank deal when it should've been done last offseason. They end up paying him about as much as anyone could have imagined, so why did they wait? Same with Girardi. Why did that have to wait until midseason?

Staal is in dreamland if he thinks he'll get a new contract this summer. He should, but they will let it drag and drag for no good reason.

I wonder which RFA will be the training camp holdout this season.

Most GMs have training camp holdouts in their past. The Rangers have had what... two of them in 10 years? Stepan and Dubinsky. Trying to remember a third.

The majority of contract extensions for top players are signed mid-season. Toews, Kane, Thornton, Marleau, Sedins, Ovechkin, Kessel, Kopitar, Keith etc, etc. The ones that get done in the summer... Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux... those are not common.

The Rangers aren't different than anybody else with this stuff.

 

[bernmeister]

The rights to Stralman are worthless because teams can talk to him now and just sign him next week.

Ok.
So if a better place comes along for more $$ then I agree.

But let's say that's not the case.
Let's say Stalman assumes he'd like Chicago for his family, Hawks a great shot to win. He and Hawks and us all agree to teh deal:

Stralman 6 years, 4m per (24m total)
Rangers eat 4m [=1/6 or 16% of deal, life of contract]
do sign + trade w/Kristo
get back
Rundblad, Morin +, for the 4 mil on installment, Hayes as well.

win win win

 

[bernmeister]

I wonder if Franson is still available

Do not want under ordinary circumstances, even if they take Girardi contract off our hands.
Franson = extended deadwood.

 

[Zil]

A lot of ****ing unwarranted Girardi hate here.

The guy has been a warrior for this team for a long time.

I expect nothing less than him sacrificing his body for this team for the next 6 years.

His cap hit isn't killing us. There's 29 other teams in the NHL that would love to have Dan Girardi at that cap hit.

I think his turnovers in the SCF has really soured a lot of your perspectives on just how good/important he is.

There's a difference between being a likeable, team player and being an actual top level player. I like Dan, but he is not worth that cap hit. He racks up the two categories that seem like a high level defensive defenseman should rack up: Hits and blocked shots. But if you're doing either of those things it means you don't have the puck.

The fact is that while Girardi plays very hard and doesn't lose his head in the defensive zone, he has massive flaws: He doesn't know how to play in the neutral zone. He doesn't know how to handle the puck. And he's not very mobile. At 30 years old, he's caught on the wrong side of the aging curve. His contract is bad and will be even worse if it keeps us from keeping Stralman. The only saving grace is that if we manage to keep Stralman, Girardi's cap hit may become manageable so long as the cap keeps rising.

Meh. This can just be circumstantial. Who else was on the ice? Where was the faceoff? What was the situation of the game? Staal's importance is on the defensive side of the ice, not the offensive, anyway. I like Stralman a lot, but in my opinion he's being overvalued now, to the point where everyone thinks he's better than Staal and Girardi. Again, the guy had a great playoff run, stood out constantly, and that's the last memory that sticks in people's brains.

He's not being overvalued. He's being properly valued. Stralman was our best right handed defenseman last year by a large margin. If we wind up with two possession anchors in our top two pairs next season, then we're ****ed.

 

[Fletch]

Its just very confusing to read that Moore wants to come back and to "keep it simple" get according to Brooks they haven't offered him a contract. I don't understand it. No logical reason for that.

Pouliot wants a multi year deal and there is interest from many teams. I feel there is no risk in giving him a 2-3 year deal. The cap hit he gets will be easy to trade if we choose to after next season.

Stralman and Boyle I can understand losing. I do feel the same way about Boyle's contract as I do Pouliot's, but if Boyle wants a bigger role its time to move on, sadly.

When I made my statement it was also about the past few years as well. They dragged their feet on the Hank deal when it should've been done last offseason. They end up paying him about as much as anyone could have imagined, so why did they wait? Same with Girardi. Why did that have to wait until midseason?

Staal is in dreamland if he thinks he'll get a new contract this summer. He should, but they will let it drag and drag for no good reason.

I wonder which RFA will be the training camp holdout this season.

On Moore, I'd guess that everyone would think he's not going to be the first signing, and the Rangers would want to see what they can get to see what they can afford in Moore. There is some risk they lose him, but he's more replaceable than others and there are other priorities.

 

[TheTakedown]

I would pose to you that safe = death.

Girardi will not get younger, only more banged up.
A more mobile version of Girardi would be a plus.
We must move Girardi and Nash if we want cap space for Stamkos in 2 years, if there is a good deal, don't wait on either.
We need offense. In this particular scenario we got Kadri.

Congrats, you again provide me an opportunity to look good

what...the...****... is the matter with you?

You really think Stamkos is coming here in two years? and for what? hat if Tampa is a contender and we're a basement dweller? Will he still come here then?

You're literally basing all of your trade proposals on guesses and estimations... too many "what ifs"... wake the hell up man

 

[bernmeister]

Do you really think that's how these negotiations work?

"We wanna be ready for Stamkos..."

Seriously?

setting aside honesty is usually -- almost always -- the best policy, yeah seriously.

WTF is the difference?

Slats to Danny Boy:
We drew things out with Hank so we knew what the remaining # was.
You and Cally were on the table.
It went down to the wire, you played hardball, congrats, we caved so we wouldn't lose you for nothing.
Now not for nothing, we need cap and we know at some point it makes sense to go for a guy who is a better fit for AV.
That doesn't mean when it kicks in I'll trade you wherever I can.
I'll trade you now to a nice place you'll like if you waive the clause for us now.

It's like Nash.
He knows he can kill anything and everything now, next year he turns NMC into limited NTC, If there is enough upside to a move now, he should take the move now.
Same with Girardi.

Trade these guys for assets we can try again for a better fit with AV.

 

[bernmeister]

what...the...****... is the matter with you?

You really think Stamkos is coming here in two years? and for what? hat if Tampa is a contender and we're a basement dweller? Will he still come here then?

You're literally basing all of your trade proposals on guesses and estimations... too many "what ifs"... wake the hell up man

It is not a given, and expect TB will be able to offer him more.
But we should be ready then, regardless of whether or not MSL is still here or not. (his lefty reincarnation, Duclair, should be here in 2 yrs).

Why not get ready now instead of waiting.
If there is a good enough deal, take it.

All of this, btw, is a crapshoot to some extent.
We are all guessing and estimating.
Some is conventional wisdom, some a herd, some outside the box.
Not so many what if's.

Even if Stamkos is a no, why not be open to improvements as better players become available?
Have to be nimble, keep roster flexible.

 

[Tawnos]

There's a difference between being a likeable, team player and being an actual top level player. I like Dan, but he is not worth that cap hit. He racks up the two categories that seem like a high level defensive defenseman should rack up: Hits and blocked shots. But if you're doing either of those things it means you don't have the puck.

The fact is that while Girardi plays very hard and doesn't lose his head in the defensive zone, he has massive flaws: He doesn't know how to play in the neutral zone. He doesn't know how to handle the puck. And he's not very mobile. At 30 years old, he's caught on the wrong side of the aging curve. His contract is bad and will be even worse if it keeps us from keeping Stralman. The only saving grace is that if we manage to keep Stralman, Girardi's cap hit may become manageable so long as the cap keeps rising.



He's not being overvalued. He's being properly valued. Stralman was our best right handed defenseman last year by a large margin. If we wind up with two possession anchors in our top two pairs next season, then we're ****ed.

I really have to thank you statistics wonks, because after a long year to two of trying to figure out exactly what it is that bothers me about advanced stats, I've finally figured it out. It's this:

Defensemen with good advanced stats need other defensemen doing good things without the puck to attain those stats. The things Girardi and Staal do without the puck, like hitting, blocking shots and creating turnovers, are what allow other players to gain possession of the puck. The relationship is far too symbiotic to boil it down to "Stralman's possession stats make him a better D than Girardi." Without someone like Staal doing what he does, Stralman wouldn't be able to do what he does. Without Girardi doing what he does, McDonagh wouldn't be able to do what he does.

Stralman is not a better defenseman than Girardi. Both are pretty one-dimensional. They're different types of players. But Girardi is better at what Girardi does than Stralman is at what Stralman does. That makes Girardi a more valuable player to this team, since his role activates the guy who is, by far, our best defenseman in all aspects.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

There's a difference between being a likeable, team player and being an actual top level player. I like Dan, but he is not worth that cap hit. He racks up the two categories that seem like a high level defensive defenseman should rack up: Hits and blocked shots. But if you're doing either of those things it means you don't have the puck.

The fact is that while Girardi plays very hard and doesn't lose his head in the defensive zone, he has massive flaws: He doesn't know how to play in the neutral zone. He doesn't know how to handle the puck. And he's not very mobile. At 30 years old, he's caught on the wrong side of the aging curve. His contract is bad and will be even worse if it keeps us from keeping Stralman. The only saving grace is that if we manage to keep Stralman, Girardi's cap hit may become manageable so long as the cap keeps rising.

Sorry man - I just totally disagree with this. Girardi knows how to handle the puck. He's an adequate passer. We've seen him shoot out Hagelin Kreider or Brass on so many breakaways this year. I can think of at least 3 where I said "who made that pass?" and it ended up being Girardi. I believe the Brass slap shot vs. Montreal, for example, was a Girardi feed. He's a stay at home defenseman. You don't need 6 defensemen who push the play. I just think he's generally disliked by fans because what he does well he does awkwardly. He doesn't look the part of a top pairing D. If you look around the league, at salaries, and at first pairing D, I would bet he's a top pairing D on all but a handful of teams, and that his cap hit is reasonable. He's making $5.5M AAV and Matt ****ing Niskanen is going to get 4.5-5M. $5.5M for your top pairing D is not a crippling cap hit.

The fans that don't like him, like yourself (I'm assuming), don't because of the new puck possession stats that are all the rave. Those stats are useful - but they're just like any other stat. All of us have presumably been watching/playing hockey for a long time. I don't need a stat to tell me who is a valuable hockey player and who isn't. Dan Girardi is a damn good defenseman and a warrior. He's a great leader and a constant on our team, and the consummate professional.

The one point you made about racking up stats that mean you don't have the puck - no hockey team is going to control the puck all the time. What was the highest puck percentage team? 55%? I don't even know. But I'd wager that's about the percentage, which means they don't have it 40-45% of the time, and when you don't, you want a guy like Girardi back there. I'm not saying he's the greatest D in the world, but let's not drive the guy out of town because he "doesn't fit AV's system." He fits any system.

He's not being overvalued. He's being properly valued. Stralman was our best right handed defenseman last year by a large margin. If we wind up with two possession anchors in our top two pairs next season, then we're ****ed.

Stralman had a great season. But for all his puck possession prowess that is being preached, he consistently failed to hit the net when he got chances. He scored less than 15 points. He played with Marc Staal. I'm not ready to anoint Stralman as better than Girardi after one playoff run, or one year even. Girardi has been a #2 defenseman in this league for years.

That being said, I'd prefer to have them both because, like I said, I like Stralman. I think he's efficient and an underrated skater, and he's positionally sound.