But the Rangers don't have many tough guys. It's an element that should be included in any NHL lineup.
If McIlrath doesn't make the team, and we're being slapped around again, I'm pretty sure he'll be called up this season.
Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part III
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But the Rangers don't have many tough guys. It's an element that should be included in any NHL lineup.
If McIlrath doesn't make the team, and we're being slapped around again, I'm pretty sure he'll be called up this season.
I remember reading a statline that McIlrath had the worst GF/GA on ice vs. off ice ratio on the Wolfpack amongst defenders. That was around 40 games into the season though.
Miller on the other hand absolutely demolished the AHL last year. He has nothing left to learn IMO.
Miller on the other hand absolutely demolished the AHL last year. He has nothing left to learn IMO.
My hope is the Kreider connection gives us the over the top edge, but it is up to Hayes.
As to complementary at this point Miller with upside and champing at the bit to make it has to be presumed to be better option than say Lombardi.
So the first speed connection is Kreider - Miller - MSL, like it or not.
However, if Kreider Hayes has unique chemistry, then a size line of those 2 can be had keeping the 6'1 Miller. Whether or not Miller stays or we try to go even bigger and behemoth later is all something we don't know until after experimentation.
Do we have a bigger, tougher, stronger option than Miller?
Potentially Boo Nieves, and that guy we drafted this year, but that is not NOW.
Stepan? solid and wiry, and the most likely to reinvent the wheel, sure. But first choice on a power line?
Brassard? solid, with grace and touch. More Jean Ratelle; but the idea is for this line to have a Walt Tkaczuk.
Ultimately, maybe we trade for a Draisatil type (actual Getzlafs will not be had). But for now, Miller, by process of elimination.
IF MSL is removed for size, it is obvious that Hagelin is the replacement LW.
Few of us rarely agree on anything, and I think we can consensus that Hagelin is the only option besides Kreider to max LW speed.
And MSL is by definition, part of the speed equation.
So who is the pivot? Again, the idea is to maximize the speed
Not Stepan.
Brassard ok in a pinch, but we want him and Zuc maintaining chemistry.
So here we get to see if Lombardi is back from wherever he went. (Bourque supposedly has the speed, but I'm not sure if he has anything beyond that.)
I know this approach invites questioning to the point of criticism, in that asks what about Stepan and Nash, among others. But the premise is sound, like it or not. The premise says that a synergy of all three on a line doing everything else basically well and one thing really superior, be it speed or power, will create an inherent advantage the typical opposition line will not be able to handle. It creates the foundation to dominate, which is what we need to do.
Stepan and Nash are not chopped liver.
Step is gonna be too expensive next year, and Nash is already this year.
I don't say give these guys away.
I don't say even take fair = value.
But if we can get a premium and obtain cap relief by moving them and Girardi, we should do so.
None of this is how the NHL works.
"If MSL is removed for size..."
"Maybe we trade for a Draisaitl type"
The NHL does not work this way. You don't simply "make a size line!" or "make a speed line!" because it looks good on paper.
You're basically never happy with the team and want to CONSTANTLY (literally, constantly) be making trades to have an ever-changing roster.
WHY?
Build a team that can sustain itself for a few years with minor changes. (Oh wait, we're doing that in real life).
There is no "creating a foundation to dominate!" in today's NHL. Every team is right there. Parity is real. We're not building a dominant dynasty.
None of what you suggest is how the actual NHL operates, man. It's pure fan fiction.
the Dale Purinton days are gone. The Rangers do not need a defenseman to skate for 6-8 minutes per night because his only attribute is fighting. I don't mind fighting. I love physical hockey. But if the kid isn't up to the NHL challenge, aside from being an NHL-level pugilist, he doesn't belong with the NHL club.
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My problem with McIlrath is not his tough, goon-ish attributes with the tendency to fight, but rather it's his unimpressive skillset and plethora of injuries. He reminds me of another tough, rugged dman who was drafted too high - Colton Teubert, who also faced his fair share injuries.
NYR Viper
Registered User
He's not going to blow you away with his skills but he makes smart plays in his own end to move the puck out. He won't ever be a true puck-mover but he doesn't have stone hands either.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
- Oct 8, 2010
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Yeah I'd say McI probably has a better breakout pass than, say, Girardi or Klein, to be perfectly frank. That's an underrated part of his game. He's got a surprisingly good first pass
1, that's your opinion, and its not 100% accurate.
True, rarely does a team have enough of a surplus of a given commodity, and even if that applies to say, 3Fs, that it breaks into a LW-C-RW combo.
But just to name a popular example to prove my point, this type of thing has gone on for years, it's just that it is exception to, and not the rule. (Classic prototype rule is a C with vision/passing skill, a W/board + contribution, and a W/shooter, e.g., Ratelle-Hadfield-Gilbert.)
But Philly had its "Legion of Doom" which was oversized.
"If MSL is removed for size..."
and 
for taking that out of context.If you are creating a size line, then while MSL is way stronger per pound then he looks, the idea is to get 3 as close to Kreider as you can.
another"Maybe we trade for a Draisaitl type"
and now Why not keep an open mind?
Probably not, probably too expensive in the actual case of Draisaitl, but maybe not for that type.
If Kreider and Hayes are magic, another big strong fast guy would allow you to have a size line that could go up vs. the Getzlaf +/Kopitar + guys and not get pushed around.
Paper is an aside.
IF you can do it, you DO.
Most teams cannot because of supply and demand.
The supply of players who are extra fast OR extra strong/big are a premium group of perhaps a dozen/+ each. Guys like Kreider who are both you can count on one hand.
We are fortunate that through both draft, trade and circumstance, we have have guys like Hagelin, Kreider, MSL, (+ to a lesser extent Lombardi) who can all flat out fly. Miller is not that fast, but is fast enough to not hold them back. As we add pieces who can offer a specialty (Hayes, size and strength with decent speed), we should consider using those specialties.
Why?
Because, as explained, which you have ignored, it creates a synergy.
That all three linemates are even harder to play against than any one talented F.
Because the odds of winning are improved not only if there is more talent across the board, but if there are enough key individual players who are difference makers.
We have Hank, and McD. We are still working on the Fs, after Kreider.
Stepan is NOT the answer.
It is a judgment call, and I respect opinions differ.
But I will not relent in my assessment that if a premium is paid, moving Stepan and relying on Brassard to fill the void is worth it {to get the added premium which is a profit this team needs}.
Edmonton would not trade Hall cause he is the face of the franchise. Fine.
I get it. He is their Ted Williams.
At some point, you ask, do you want to keep Williams, or take, not DiMaggio, that's coke for pepsi, but maybe Mantle and Ford for him?
We got a lot out of Staal + Girardi + Stepan
Hall could not save the Oilers single handedly.
One wonders if that kind of deal went through, would it not have benefited both teams?
If we moved Girardi for an upgrade, while the upgrade is available, I wouldn't have to keep bringing it up.
The need to continuously improve to stay ahead of competition compels CONSTANT CHANGE. The key is to do it like the Hawks.
This team is radically different than one from 5 years ago.
And the issue is not to sustain; the issue is to win.
That means not just putting out a good team, but one good enough to win by sheer force of will, if necessary. One that can dominate.
Sure, the degree of domination is different today, with expansion, than it was, in the early 70s and prior, and the best of today's teams, not withstanding that every athlete is bigger, stronger, faster, would have its hands full with say the Canadians of those years, same as the best of today's baseball teams would find the '61 Yankees more than formidable.
But the best teams do not merely compete. They dominate.
Expansion condensing the talent base HAS resulted in some degree of parity.
But even if the gap is closer, today's teams still dominate.
And whose fault is that, man in the mirror?
The shame is not failing, but never having tried.
However, I am optimistic that eventually, the powers that be will listen.
They listened on Kreider.
They will now listen on Miller, who finally (circumstances + stars aligning) will give them good reason to.
They will not do anything impulsive, and they will make sure first that Hayes is actually in the fold.
But they will at least attempt something on what I have said as to synergy, because it is an asset they have, and cannot ignore. If they want to win.
Disputed as explained above.
Sure, GMs are not as over the top as I am in approach, but they try to win, given the reality of budget, etc.
Dream on
Dream on
Dream until YOUR dreams come true...........
pld459666
Registered User
If we have a shot at Hayes, and I say it's a big IF, it's not going to be the Kreider connection that gets it done.
If that were the driving factor, he'd be going to Calgary to continue the great chemistry that he shared with Johnny G.
IF we have a shot it's going to be because of the commitment we have shown to the NCAA product and subsequent environment created because of that commitment.
Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider, Hagelin, D. Moore that's 25% of the roster that just got to the Finals all from NCAA programs. Then you have Skjei, Neives, Fogarty still in college, not to mention signing Haggerty and Bodie this off-season.
The Rangers like the college product and have provided those players with the tools needed to succeed. The Organization has been patient with each player (fairly expressing their opinions of readiness) but allowing each player to determine their own readiness.
Hayes would do well here.
There's a uniqueness to the Rangers having all of those college kids on the roster playing important roles and in the system.
If we have a shot, that will be the reason.
If that were the driving factor, he'd be going to Calgary to continue the great chemistry that he shared with Johnny G.
IF we have a shot it's going to be because of the commitment we have shown to the NCAA product and subsequent environment created because of that commitment.
Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider, Hagelin, D. Moore that's 25% of the roster that just got to the Finals all from NCAA programs. Then you have Skjei, Neives, Fogarty still in college, not to mention signing Haggerty and Bodie this off-season.
The Rangers like the college product and have provided those players with the tools needed to succeed. The Organization has been patient with each player (fairly expressing their opinions of readiness) but allowing each player to determine their own readiness.
Hayes would do well here.
There's a uniqueness to the Rangers having all of those college kids on the roster playing important roles and in the system.
If we have a shot, that will be the reason.
1, that's your opinion, and its not 100% accurate.
True, rarely does a team have enough of a surplus of a given commodity, and even if that applies to say, 3Fs, that it breaks into a LW-C-RW combo.
But just to name a popular example to prove my point, this type of thing has gone on for years, it's just that it is exception to, and not the rule. (Classic prototype rule is a C with vision/passing skill, a W/board + contribution, and a W/shooter, e.g., Ratelle-Hadfield-Gilbert.)
But Philly had its "Legion of Doom" which was oversized.
If you are creating a size line, then while MSL is way stronger per pound then he looks, the idea is to get 3 as close to Kreider as you can.
another
Why not keep an open mind?
Probably not, probably too expensive in the actual case of Draisaitl, but maybe not for that type.
If Kreider and Hayes are magic, another big strong fast guy would allow you to have a size line that could go up vs. the Getzlaf +/Kopitar + guys and not get pushed around.
Paper is an aside.
IF you can do it, you DO.
Most teams cannot because of supply and demand.
The supply of players who are extra fast OR extra strong/big are a premium group of perhaps a dozen/+ each. Guys like Kreider who are both you can count on one hand.
We are fortunate that through both draft, trade and circumstance, we have have guys like Hagelin, Kreider, MSL, (+ to a lesser extent Lombardi) who can all flat out fly. Miller is not that fast, but is fast enough to not hold them back. As we add pieces who can offer a specialty (Hayes, size and strength with decent speed), we should consider using those specialties.
Why?
Because, as explained, which you have ignored, it creates a synergy.
That all three linemates are even harder to play against than any one talented F.
Because the odds of winning are improved not only if there is more talent across the board, but if there are enough key individual players who are difference makers.
We have Hank, and McD. We are still working on the Fs, after Kreider.
Stepan is NOT the answer.
It is a judgment call, and I respect opinions differ.
But I will not relent in my assessment that if a premium is paid, moving Stepan and relying on Brassard to fill the void is worth it {to get the added premium which is a profit this team needs}.
Edmonton would not trade Hall cause he is the face of the franchise. Fine.
I get it. He is their Ted Williams.
At some point, you ask, do you want to keep Williams, or take, not DiMaggio, that's coke for pepsi, but maybe Mantle and Ford for him?
We got a lot out of Staal + Girardi + Stepan
Hall could not save the Oilers single handedly.
One wonders if that kind of deal went through, would it not have benefited both teams?
If we moved Girardi for an upgrade, while the upgrade is available, I wouldn't have to keep bringing it up.
The need to continuously improve to stay ahead of competition compels CONSTANT CHANGE. The key is to do it like the Hawks.
This team is radically different than one from 5 years ago.
And the issue is not to sustain; the issue is to win.
That means not just putting out a good team, but one good enough to win by sheer force of will, if necessary. One that can dominate.
Sure, the degree of domination is different today, with expansion, than it was, in the early 70s and prior, and the best of today's teams, not withstanding that every athlete is bigger, stronger, faster, would have its hands full with say the Canadians of those years, same as the best of today's baseball teams would find the '61 Yankees more than formidable.
But the best teams do not merely compete. They dominate.
Expansion condensing the talent base HAS resulted in some degree of parity.
But even if the gap is closer, today's teams still dominate.
And whose fault is that, man in the mirror?
The shame is not failing, but never having tried.
However, I am optimistic that eventually, the powers that be will listen.
They listened on Kreider.
They will now listen on Miller, who finally (circumstances + stars aligning) will give them good reason to.
They will not do anything impulsive, and they will make sure first that Hayes is actually in the fold.
But they will at least attempt something on what I have said as to synergy, because it is an asset they have, and cannot ignore. If they want to win.
Disputed as explained above.
Sure, GMs are not as over the top as I am in approach, but they try to win, given the reality of budget, etc.
Dream on
Dream on
Dream until YOUR dreams come true...........
You don't get it.
"The idea is to get 3 guys like Kreider on a line".... No. That's not the idea. The idea is 3 guys who complement eachother and lines that have chemistry and are successful. There's no one or two ways to build a line. You don't make "speed lines" or "size lines." You put players in roles and spots to succeed. That's it.
I said we aren't building a dynasty and you respond with "who's fault is that?!"
I didn't mean the Rangers exclusively aren't building one. I meant, no NHL team is building a dominant dynasty in today's NHL. The salary-cap prevents it. You need a steady influx of young players on ELC's to be productive while the veterans are getting paid through their prime and beyond. That's just the way it works. As "dominant" as the Kings may seem to you, they're not a dynasty. They're a very good team, just like the Hawks, Rangers, Bruins, etc. Their center depth happened to be better than just about every NHL team last season. In a few years, when guys are up for raises/new contracts, they won't be able to pay Mike Richards to play on the 4th line.
Again, almost all of what you said is not consistent with how the actual NHL works, man. It's just how you want things to be in an ideal world. Take a step back and look at the big picture, and try to have some patience. It's been a fun ride. Last season was awesome. We were 3 wins away from being on top of the hockey world. We have the same core. We have young players who will likely continue to get even better (Kreider, McDonagh, etc). McDonagh would've been a Smythe candidate, had we won (along with Henrik), and he's likely going to get even better as he's still so young. There's lots to be excited about. The roster will be different heading into the playoffs this season as it is to open the season in October. Have some faith. Have some patience. Relax. I love you.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 39,337
- 11,978
It's asset management. No the Rangers do not have move McIlrath now, but if they need to make to upgrade their offense McIlrath is one of the few assets they have that are attractive to other teams and replacable on the depth chart.
Yes defensive physical defensemen take longer to develop, but McIlrath is another season without making a leap from bust territory. I am not calling him a busy yet but he is certainly closer to bust than boom at this point, yet he is a player that still has value at this point; it might be best to move him while you can.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,301
- 21,909
silverfish
got perma'd
Since McIlrath has come up, I'll post this again:
http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2013020473
That's a link to the game log that McIlrath played with the Rangers against the Blue Jackets. If you watch the Jackets' second goal, it's one where McI is on the ice.
Recall: McIlrath steps up at the blueline to throw a big hit. Jenner ducks out of the way, McI is getting a delayed penalty. This also leads to a three-on-one the other way.
Now. This was a poor decision by McIlrath. However, it's plays like that, where if he can continue to learn and fine tune when it is a good play to step up at the blueline and demolish someone, and when it is better to turn and defend, he'll make a case for himself as a tough guy to play against.
What you may not remember is the recovery aspect of the play.
McIlrath, despite throwing the hit that takes him completely out of the play, is fast enough to be the third guy back on the backcheck. Not only this, but he takes Blake Comeau out of the play backdoor, as the puck finds Anisimov front-door who buries it.
Again, this is a bonehead play. One that will quell over time as he learns. BUT, anyone calling him a bad skater need just remember this play.
Now, to be honest, I've watched this play maybe ten times now, I still don't know who McIlrath's guy is on the backcheck. All I know is Zuccarello and John Moore go to the same guy. Is AA Mac's guy? Or is his goal there to just get back into the play and hit anything that moves in white to avoid a rebound opportunity?
Either way, for a guy his size, the skating in the video is strong. Especially considering the way some posters speak of Dylan's skating.
http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2013020473
That's a link to the game log that McIlrath played with the Rangers against the Blue Jackets. If you watch the Jackets' second goal, it's one where McI is on the ice.
Recall: McIlrath steps up at the blueline to throw a big hit. Jenner ducks out of the way, McI is getting a delayed penalty. This also leads to a three-on-one the other way.
Now. This was a poor decision by McIlrath. However, it's plays like that, where if he can continue to learn and fine tune when it is a good play to step up at the blueline and demolish someone, and when it is better to turn and defend, he'll make a case for himself as a tough guy to play against.
What you may not remember is the recovery aspect of the play.
McIlrath, despite throwing the hit that takes him completely out of the play, is fast enough to be the third guy back on the backcheck. Not only this, but he takes Blake Comeau out of the play backdoor, as the puck finds Anisimov front-door who buries it.
Again, this is a bonehead play. One that will quell over time as he learns. BUT, anyone calling him a bad skater need just remember this play.
Now, to be honest, I've watched this play maybe ten times now, I still don't know who McIlrath's guy is on the backcheck. All I know is Zuccarello and John Moore go to the same guy. Is AA Mac's guy? Or is his goal there to just get back into the play and hit anything that moves in white to avoid a rebound opportunity?
Either way, for a guy his size, the skating in the video is strong. Especially considering the way some posters speak of Dylan's skating.
McIlrath needs to play some games in the NHL this season. Begin the season in the minors. Get some NHL experience. Hopefully the Pack is a playoff team this season. They get into the playoffs and have a decent run for once. Katie Strang has an ESPN chat on Tuesday. She said McIlrath needs to make the team out of camp. That's not happening. Katie is no longer the ESPN NY Rangers beat writer. She covered the other two teams but mostly covered the Rangers. Katie got married and moved back to Michigan. She will be doing more national NHL coverage.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/51013/nhl-with-katie-strang
Crack the roster? Not happening because Gorton and Clark want the player playing major minutes in all situations in the AHL(except the PP). Make a strong impression. Definitely. Even if McIlrath is lights out in camp,the Rangers would send him back. He is still waiver exempt
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/51013/nhl-with-katie-strang
Crack the roster? Not happening because Gorton and Clark want the player playing major minutes in all situations in the AHL(except the PP). Make a strong impression. Definitely. Even if McIlrath is lights out in camp,the Rangers would send him back. He is still waiver exempt
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What that clip shows is that physically, he might be ready for the NHL right now, but it also shows he has a ton to learn about playing the game of hockey. When I read Gordie Clark's quote last week, this was the play I thought of. He was obviously trying to put his physical stamp on the game and it made him look like a fool at the NHL level.
Glen Sathers Cigar
Sather 4 Ever
As long as we're throwing those guys on there can't forget about MSL being a Vermont Catamount
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Yup.
If your career doesn't start like Nathan MacKinnon, you're on the...bust train to...Bustville?...
helpI digress.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 39,337
- 11,978
Video of Brassard working out this summer
http://www.rds.ca/hockey/lnh/brassard-bûche-à -l-entraînement-1.1332092
http://www.rds.ca/hockey/lnh/brassard-bûche-à -l-entraînement-1.1332092
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,301
- 21,909
I at least know a defenseman on the top pair of an AHL team at the age of 22 is not "heading towards bust status".
Kakko
Formerly Chytil
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