Speculation: 2013 Offseason Thread Part IV: SCF, end. Trades, begin.

[Fitzy]

Pyatt for Tootoo is only an addition of 400k.

Tootoo, Boyle, and Dorsett would be a good 4th line. I would keep Asham as the 13th regardless.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I just laid them out above.

Pyatt 2 years ago in PHX had 19 points. Tootoo had 30. Tootoo in less ice time had 8 points in 42 games. Pyatt had 11 in 48.

I am sure you realize points aren't the entire equation either.

I'll take the guy who fills his role well over the guy who fills absolutely nothing.

Tootoo was a healthy scratch this year in the playoffs on a team that had little fourth line depth. Meanwhile, Pyatt was on the third line in the playoffs and down the stretch, and performed quite admirably. I didn't know that playing in a larger role and producing made one a worse player.

 

[NYR Viper]

Pyatt for Tootoo is only an addition of 400k.

Tootoo, Boyle, and Dorsett would be a good 4th line. I would keep Asham as the 13th regardless.

What!? NoOoO! Pyatt's eyes must stay!

That's an energy line.

 

[RangerBoy]

They will try to alleviate this logjam by trading somebody this weekend. Scrappy Jordin Tootoo is available, according to a source, and chances are, so is fourth-line center Cory Emmerton.

Tootoo was a frequent healthy scratch the second half of the season and appeared in only one playoff game. He has two years remaining at $1.9 million per season. Emmerton's spot likely will be assumed by Joakim Andersson, assuming Darren Helm is healthy next season and returns to his third-line center slot.

The Wings may use one of their compliance buyouts on Tootoo if they can't find a taker.

The Red Wings will attempt to trade Filppula's negotiating rights for a conditional draft pick this weekend if the sides remain far apart on a contract. They continue to talk, but it does not appear as if a deal will get done because Filppula has been seeking a long-term contract worth more than $5 million a season, more than the club is willing to give.

If Filppula isn't re-signed, the Red Wings would prefer to acquire a center to replace him. Stephen Weiss of Florida is a potential free-agent option.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/06/red_wings_look_to_alleviate_fo.html

Weiss will have many teams interested in him. Florida wants to keep him. Wings. Stars. Leafs.

 

[NYR Viper]

Tootoo was a healthy scratch this year in the playoffs on a team that had little fourth line depth. Meanwhile, Pyatt was on the third line in the playoffs and down the stretch, and performed quite admirably. I didn't know that playing in a larger role and producing made one a worse player.

Just disregarding the 40+ games of horrible play he had?

That is Pyatt. That is his career. He shows up for 8 games, then disappears for 40. This isn't something new. I'll take the guy who plays hard and fills his role close to 100% of the time over a guy who shows flashes of decent play at age 31.

 

[RangerBoy]

Interesting that someone leaked the Clowe stuff. Probably the agent Kent Hughes.

 

[Thirty One]

That is Pyatt. That is his career. He shows up for 8 games, then disappears for 40. This isn't something new. I'll take the guy who plays hard and fills his role close to 100% of the time over a guy who shows flashes of decent play at age 31.

This is exactly true. However with that up and down play, he still outpaces Tootoo significantly.

Of course the heart of this debate is how much you value "energy". I do very little.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Just disregarding the 40+ games of horrible play he had?

That is Pyatt. That is his career. He shows up for 8 games, then disappears for 40. This isn't something new. I'll take the guy who plays hard and fills his role close to 100% of the time over a guy who shows flashes of decent play at age 31.

He always performs in the playoffs, and he stepped it up when the games truly mattered down the stretch, recording a 5 game point streak and scoring big goals in the final 7 games or so. He's a bottom-6 player, any bottom-6 player is inconsistent. He's a much better puck possession player than Tootoo and is great along the wall. Tootoo does...what? Hits players? That's about it. He's not good along the wall, he's not great in front of the net, he's not a proven playoff producer, and he has had a substance abuse problem in the past.

I'll keep the cheaper, bigger, more productive player, thank you.

 

[NYR Viper]

He always performs in the playoffs, and he stepped it up when the games truly mattered down the stretch, recording a 5 game point streak and scoring big goals in the final 7 games or so. He's a bottom-6 player, any bottom-6 player is inconsistent. He's a much better puck possession player than Tootoo and is great along the wall. Tootoo does...what? Hits players? That's about it. He's not good along the wall, he's not great in front of the net, he's not a proven playoff producer, and he has had a substance abuse problem in the past.

I'll keep the cheaper, bigger, more productive player, thank you.

Pyatt has to first get to the wall in order to be good along the wall.

Tootoo creates turnovers and drives to the net utilizing his speed. He is a MUCH better skater than Pyatt.

This is exactly true. However with that up and down play, he still outpaces Tootoo significantly.

Of course the heart of this debate is how much you value "energy". I do very little.

I guess I am just looking at it as such:

AV wants a defensive line and an energy line. Pyatt fits on neither of them as he is not a good defensive player due to his lack of footspeed, nor is he an effective energy player due to the same as the above.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Taylor Pyatt playoff career: 64 games, 10 goals, 24 points.

Jordin Tootoo playoff career: 40 games, 3 goals, 10 points.

That's a rather large difference. The "Points aren't the end all be all of hockey" argument generally holds weight when two players are relatively close production-wise.

 

[TheRightWay]

Pyatt has to first get to the wall in order to be good along the wall.

Tootoo creates turnovers and drives to the net utilizing his speed. He is a MUCH better skater than Pyatt.



I guess I am just looking at it as such:

AV wants a defensive line and an energy line. Pyatt fits on neither of them as he is not a good defensive player due to his lack of footspeed, nor is he an effective energy player due to the same as the above.

Pyatt actually played some of his best hockey under Vigneault, but nonetheless let's go with your theory; how does Tootoo solve anything? Seems to me like it's just throwing crap at the wall and hoping something sticks. A change for the sake of a change.

 

[Trxjw]

Interesting that someone leaked the Clowe stuff. Probably the agent Kent Hughes.

Could be that the Rangers were low balling with a 1 year "prove it" deal and Hughes is trying to put some additional heat on Slats & Gorton to up their offer. Hopefully they don't bite. Bickell, Horton, and Clowe. It's going to be the summer of the overpaid power forward.

 

[Thirty One]

Could be that the Rangers were low balling with a 1 year "prove it" deal and Hughes is trying to put some additional heat on Slats & Gorton to up their offer. Hopefully they don't bite. Bickell, Horton, and Clowe. It's going to be the summer of the overpaid power forward.

Every summer is the summer of the overpaid powerforward/physical defenseman.

 

[RangerBoy]

This is what the Rangers have

Right on down through the fourth line — populated by the likes of Andrew Shaw, Michael Frolik, Marcus Kruger and Viktor Stalberg — the Blackhawks fielded players who belong in the NHL, not bubble players doing little but killing time while the top lines get some rest.

The whole playoffs also proved this: Big isn't necessarily better. The Anaheim Ducks have some very big forwards, but where was Corey Perry in the first-round series against Detroit? And where was Bobby Ryan? To those hankering for the Wings to trade for Ryan: It's not happening. They were not impressed by his competitiveness.

But the Blackhawks' victory was a victory for the Wings' belief that hardworking skilled players are the best players to have, regardless of their size.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130625/SPORTS05/306250070/detroit-red-wings-chicago-blackhawks

This is what the Rangers need.

Stan Bowman learned from his father.

 

[NYR Viper]

Taylor Pyatt playoff career: 64 games, 10 goals, 24 points.

Jordin Tootoo playoff career: 40 games, 3 goals, 10 points.

That's a rather large difference. The "Points aren't the end all be all of hockey" argument generally holds weight when two players are relatively close production-wise.

So here's the question, do you like Pyatt on the 3rd line? In order for him to score he needed 3rd line minutes all season. Averaged 13+ minutes a game. 11 points. 48 games.

You are comparing (2) different types of players.



It's like comparing Ales Hemsky with Ryan Callahan. Hemsky has 17 points in 30 playoff games! Callahan has 24 in 59. Obviously we should take Hemsky.

Hemsky has also out-scored Callahan in the regular season. .755 p/g to .565 p/g

 

[RangerBoy]

Could be that the Rangers were low balling with a 1 year "prove it" deal and Hughes is trying to put some additional heat on Slats & Gorton to up their offer. Hopefully they don't bite. Bickell, Horton, and Clowe. It's going to be the summer of the overpaid power forward.

It tells other teams Clowe is healthy. Ante up.

 

[Matt4776]

So my flight back to NY is delayed, so I'm drunk at the airport. Instead of getting in real life trouble, I'm going to get in HFBoards trouble. I can almost guarantee these values are so far off it's laughable, but this kept me occupied while drunk here in the Detroit airport.

Trade Staal, 2 2013 3rds, Skjei, and a conditional 2014 1st (If Staal doesn't play 65 games) for Faulk and the 5th overall.

Trade Girardi, Boyle, Noreau, 2014 2nd for Burmistrov, Trouba

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Drouin-Brassard-Zucc
Hagelin-Burmistrov-Callahan
Pyatt-Lindberg-Dorsett
(for better or worse, with AV, Pyatt will be on the team next year)

McDonagh-Faulk
Del Zotto-Stralman
Moore-Trouba

Next year:

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Drouin-Brassard-Miller
Hagelin-Burmistrov-Callahan
Fast-Lindberg-Dorsett

McDonagh-Faulk
Del Zotto-Trouba
Moore-McIlrath

Stralman + Zucc can be moved for prospects+picks+depth to get some of what we lost in the previous deals back. If Miller/McIlrath/Fast aren't ready, keep them.

Obviously, if Burmi breaks out and becomes better than Brass, swap the two.

So that's my drunk attempt

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Seriously getting this heated over the difference between two guys who put up 8 and 11 pts this season?

If it comes between Pyatt or Tootoo for fourth line duty I take Jordin. 3rd line Pyatt, they are different players can't compare them based on stats, or anything really.

Pyatt is more responsible defensively, smarter, and has better offensive tools.

Tootoo is a spark plug, a little dirty at times and can still play hockey to an extent. That's what I want in my 4th line.

That said neither of them could score in a woman's prison with a carton of cigarettes.

 

[Kershaw]

Pyatt is just plain awful. He isn't that great defensively either. He is also extremely slow.

He is awful, but he is a much better player than Tootoo. He is not terrible defensively, unlike Tootoo who can't play a lick of defense. Yes he is slow, but his role isn't to go out and play like Lucic. He is decent in his role at puck protection, which is about the only good thing he's at.

Where do people come up with Tootoo being a thug? He plays physical. Is that not allowed anymore? He fights when called upon. He doesn't amass 300 PIM's a year.

Physicality is allowed, but he doesn't bring anything else hockey wise. You don't need to put up 300 PIMs to play like a thug though. What I meant by playing like a thug was that a player who does little to help the team hockey wise.

He makes opposing defensemen uncomfortable and he has some offense in him. He isn't a goon. He is a guy who is tough who can also play the game.

At 1.9m, he is one of Holland's few contract blunders.

 

[Thirty One]

So here's the question, do you like Pyatt on the 3rd line? In order for him to score he needed 3rd line minutes all season. Averaged 13+ minutes a game. 11 points. 48 games.

You are comparing (2) different types of players.



It's like comparing Ales Hemsky with Ryan Callahan. Hemsky has 17 points in 30 playoff games! Callahan has 24 in 59. Obviously we should take Hemsky.

Hemsky has also out-scored Callahan in the regular season. .755 p/g to .565 p/g

If Tootoo was as good of a penalty killer as Callahan, I would take him over Pyatt.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Don't really want either player on the regular roster. Prefer Pyatt as the thirteenth forward because he can adequately fill in for any top-9 wing injuries.

I want the bottom-6 to consist of 2/3 of Lindberg, Fast, and Miler. Young players with skill that are defensively responsible, and players that are hungry. Speed. Skill. Smarts. That's what the Rangers need in their bottom-6, not retreads. Not interested in Tootoo or any player of his kind.

 

[Kershaw]

If the Rangers can't get an immediate top 6 LWer, I'd send a 2nd over for Michael Frolik. He played top 6 before and is an elite PKer, an area where the Rangers were dreadful at in the playoffs.

 

[NYR Viper]

He is awful, but he is a much better player than Tootoo. He is not terrible defensively, unlike Tootoo who can't play a lick of defense. Yes he is slow, but his role isn't to go out and play like Lucic. He is decent in his role at puck protection, which is about the only good thing he's at.



Physicality is allowed, but he doesn't bring anything else hockey wise. You don't need to put up 300 PIMs to play like a thug though. What I meant by playing like a thug was that a player who does little to help the team hockey wise.



At 1.9m, he is one of Holland's few contract blunders.

He is good for ~18 points a year or ~20 points over 82 games. That's an effective 4th line player offensively.

If Tootoo was as good of a penalty killer as Callahan, I would take him over Pyatt.

Fair enough.

 

[Thirty One]

That said neither of them could score in a woman's prison with a carton of cigarettes.

You thought Arron Asham was more likely to score than Boyle, so what do you know about goalscoring?

Pyatt has scored a goal every 7 games over the past two seasons.

 

[Kershaw]

I'd take a peak Hemsky easily over Callahan. But you can't compare players solely on playoff numbers. You have to look at what players have done lately as well to formulate a good evaluation on them. In the case of Pyatt, he's been good in the playoffs for the past few years.