Salary Cap: 11 guys signed next year at $65.5M CAP - $16M left for 12 guys

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Canada4Gold

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
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OK I am no expert in this area for sure. Last season the players got 12% taken from their payroll. and in summer they got roughly 2.5% of the escrow returned so we lost 9.5% of the contract value after true up. But that is much appreciated as the year before it was 15% taken from payroll and virtually nothing back as noted by Toews. So my first question is why did escrow hold back drop 3%? and my second question is why do the net on true up go up around 5.5% from 15% to 9.5%?
Now I get there is LTIR so that pushed up CAP past 50/50 revenue split so there is a need for some kinda system on holdback to deal with that issue in CBA. and maybe there is more of these issues too? But really I don't count that much when I look around league??????????

The exact amount of escrow for each season is not known until the season is over. The players and league agreed to a 50/50 split but every team doesn't spend to the cap so they had to decide on a point to make the cap as putting it exactly on the point that requires every team to spend to the cap to achieve a 50/50 split wouldn't work as the players would never get 50% that way. The point I believe they agreed upon is halfway between the cap and the floor(but I'm not 100% certain on that). Meaning if the average team spent more than that point the players were getting more, and the league less resulting in escrow. The other thing they did was give players what's called a cap escalator. They would choose to leave the cap where it was naturally by not using the escalator, or use it at any percent up to 5%. What that does isn't get the players more money but artificially raise the cap so that free agents that year get more, but in turn everyone has to pay back more in escrow to even it out. They made the choice to hike it up the full 5% year after year after year. Every year in fact until 3 years ago. They didn't seem to care about those escrow payments back then when it was getting any of them artificially overpaid.

As for the actual numbers, as I said they vary year to year. If more teams are spending closer to the cap with more LTIR guys(among other factors I'm forgetting or may not even know about) the escrow payments will likely be higher at the end of the year. If not they'll be lower.

3rd question why do the players have to always be ones taking the holdback? Pay out everything up front as it f's up the taxes calculations and then ask for money back at true up time.

And in fact if so many teams were near the floor, andI've never heard of this happening, but if it was so drastic that the average was below that midpoint line resulting in the league getting more than 50% I would assume escrow payments would go the other way with the players getting escrow payments made to them.

Now I know most people think heh man these are 1M per guys losing like 100K so whats the big deal here. Well keep in mind most guys play like 3 years on average at league minimum. So this is money lost forever.

So lets go back to overall CAP of 81.5M? So after last years true ups the players got 73.7575M AAV. add to owners got 73.7575M AVV so total HRR was $147.515M per team or 4,572,965,000 for league.

Again where did $7.7425M in AAV per team go??????????????????????????????????? all LTIR?????????????????????????????????

Like I said above, the cap isn't set up in a way such that every team spending to the cap exactly equals a 50/50 split. That's not missing money. When the set the system up they knew many teams would spend below that, perhaps underestimating it at the time when they set up that point(ergo escrow). The 81.5 million cap wasn't set up expecting that every team spending 81.5 million dollars results in a 50/50 split. It was expecting every team to spend on average 73.7575 million dollars and thought the 81.5 million dollar cap would achieve that(the underestimating I was referring to earlier). Maybe it worked well back in 2005 when the cap was set up and has changed since with teams spending more IDK. The cap number would have been ~81.09 but the 0.5% escalator they used bumps it up to 81.5. Had they used the full 5% escalator as they had done for years it would have been ~85.15, Teams would have spent more than they are now. Panarin likely gets a bigger contract, so does all the RFAs by an extra few hundred K probably. And boom, every player in the league has to pay a bunch more back in escrow.


Now we are projecting a CAP of 83-84.5M depending on the math right? and whose numbers you believe right?

Now union is saying we got to limit CAP escalator to ZERO get holdback down from 12% to 9%. and get true up money down from 9.5% to 6%.

My point is the while d*mn thing is way to confusing???????? Too complicated a system where the players are taking the hit. and Bettman is making people think the HRR, thru the CAP, is much better than it really is. A grand marketing fascade I think given his history. And this is why players do not trust the owners who have a long history of screwing us?

I'm not sure what we're projecting the cap to be at the moment I haven't seen a number, the thing I know is inflation continues to go up every year. The cap will naturally rise. Some years more than other obviously. And the PA doesn't have much of a trick left in it's bad to stop it as they only have the 0.5 decrease in the inflator down to 0% which will only have a very tiny impact, smaller than previous years.

Last year the cap was 79.5%, but that's with the 1.5% inflator they used, with 0 inflator it would have been 78.325. This year without the inflator it would have been as I said about 81.09. It naturally went up about 2.76 million dollars this past year. It actually only went up 2 millipn because the reduction in the inflator from 1.5% to 0.5% hindered it. Assuming the PA drop to 0% next year that will hind it again(by about half of what it did this year), but it will still go up. The amount will be determined by how much growth there is this year.

It's so confusing because it has to be. You can't put set the cap so that it requires every team to spend to the max to get a 50/50 split because that won't happen. They're currently setting it too low because more teams are spending closer to the cap than perhaps they anticipated which means players are getting too much and have to pay it back in escrow. But there's no perfect place to put it to prevent escrow because when they set the cap for a year it's unknown what HRR will be, it also unknown how much each team spends that year. Escrow is inevitable. They could perhaps do with a new system of determining the cap to lower escrow, but that would have to be a gradual change as a lot of teams would suddenly be screwed if the cap dropped by 5 million suddenly.

The players don't like escrow, but it's not going away anytime soon, even with a 0% inflator. It won't go away until they change the system used to determine the cap as more teams are spending closer to the cap than what would be required for to meet the average line for 50/50 revenue split.
 
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Canada4Gold

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
43,033
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You made my entire point. The players want ZERO increase in CAP so we can get to point where there is NO escrow holdback. and we don't want the 9.5% taken away after true up. We want that number to be ZERO percent. So the TRUTH comes out the NHL does not make the true 81M per team HRR when it sets the CAP. It is really only $73.7575M. Why keep the charade going on???????????????????????????????? My guess it is marketing to the masses to make it seem like league is doing better than it really is.

The players can want that but they agreed to the system when it was implemented and didn't seem to care 5 years ago when it got them paid. They don't have an avenue to change it until the new CBA which isn't this offseason so saying the cap won't go up is just false. The players must not hate it that bad as they actually could have opted out of the CBA to try to change it this offseason but chose not to.

You cannot set the average number to be the cap. By definition the cap is what teams cannot go over, so it would require every team to spend exactly to the cap to be 50/50. Doing that would result in the owners paying a bunch of escrow, how is that any different than what you claim the players are complaining about now? The 50/50 average has to be somewhere between the cap and the floor. Like I said in a previous post it's probably too low now I believe at the midpoint. More teams are above it resulting in escrow. Should the 50/50 point be higher, resulting in a lower cap? Sure, but it's not changing for at least 3 years(and I doubt ever) so I'm not sure why you're arguing about it in this thread proclaiming the cap won't go up because the players won't let it when that's not true.

The players can drop the inflator from 0.5% to 0% this offseason if they choose. That's literally the only thing they can do about it for the next 3 years. The cap will still go up.
 
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Hustlr

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Oct 1, 2019
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TML20 - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

83.5M cap, traded no one, resigned Ceci/Muzzin, signed a 2M backup. 22 man roster.

Not seeing the problem. Also would like to sign a player like Grigorenko from Russia to potentially make Kerfoot’s cap moveable.

We’re also open to moving a player for another Dman, as always.
 

Canada4Gold

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
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Felt like I was forgetting someone. Meh, there’s room. 21 man roster, couple hundred K off other resignings. I’m also not locked into Ceci there, maybe we can find someone for closer to 3M.

Also Dermott. He can actually probably fill Ceci's spot for cheaper.
 

Mickey Marner

Registered User
Jul 9, 2014
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We'll have more space than this year. 2019-20 is/was the big cap squeeze year, every year until Matthews/Nylander are UFAs we'll have progressively more available space.
 

deletethis

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Mar 17, 2015
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Dermott hasn't played the right side on the 3rd pairing let alone the 1st or 2nd pairing. He's not replacing Ceci, he's replacing Muzzin.
 
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jrgtml67

Registered User
Sep 12, 2011
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Love Robertson but I cant see him making it next year. He will be a Marlie, develope, and hopefully tear it up there..and maybe get called up.

I forget his name but there is a Russian winger we are after..last I read it was between us and MTL to sign him.

Also Mikheyev, deserves to be signed.

Largest issue is D. Sandin certainly will make it, Dermott better and cheaper than Ceci. Big questions are Muzzin and Barrie. With Keefes high flying style makes more sense to keep Barrie tbh. Rumor was he wants over 8m ..if so no can do. However Jake Gardiner is making under 6m so I guess depends how well Barrie plays the rest of the season.

The other question is...are we cheating out on a backup OR this week will we trade for one that's making a couple mill a yr and more substantial
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,939
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TML20 - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

83.5M cap, traded no one, resigned Ceci/Muzzin, signed a 2M backup. 22 man roster.

Not seeing the problem. Also would like to sign a player like Grigorenko from Russia to potentially make Kerfoot’s cap moveable.

We’re also open to moving a player for another Dman, as always.
You would really keep Ceci around at 4.5 mil?
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,872
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Dermott hasn't played the right side on the 3rd pairing let alone the 1st or 2nd pairing. He's not replacing Ceci, he's replacing Muzzin.

Though i wonder how much of that has been Babs.

I wonder if a Keefe/Dubas influence may be more inclined to experiment with some guys shifting over to the right side
 
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Americanadian

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Sep 11, 2016
3,778
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Michigan
It’s very simple:

Trade:
Matthews for Couturier, Frost and Myers
Rielly, Nylander for Ekblad and Tippett
Johnsson, Kerfoot, Dermott for Nurse
2020 2nd+Woll for Georgiev


Muzzin 5x5
Hall 11x7
Holl 1.5x2
Mikheyev 3x3
Nurse 6x6
Engvall 0.8x2
Myers 1.75x2
Georgiev 1.75x1


Hall-Tavares-Tippett
Hyman-Couturier-Marner
Mikheyev-Frost-Kapanen
Aggostino-Engvall-Moore

Nurse-Ekblad
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Myers

Andersen
Georgiev

80.3M on the cap with Kessel.
 

67Leafs67

Registered User
Nov 8, 2014
774
631
Yeah I'm curious what price Mikheyev will fetch for himself. With his age/current play, I'd imagine he'll be in a similar range to the likes of Kapanen, Kerfoot, & Johnsson this past off-season, which I guess makes it tough to retain him. Currently pacing for about 50 points (12 goals), which is pretty good for a rookie.
 

horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
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Felt like I was forgetting someone. Meh, there’s room. 21 man roster, couple hundred K off other resignings. I’m also not locked into Ceci there, maybe we can find someone for closer to 3M.

Don't care for Ceci .
Weak defensively
Weak on his skates
Gets pushed of the puck all the time
Can't make a pass to save his life

Our main goal in the summer
Defence and a backup goaltender

Trade Johnson and Kappy

I would resign Barrie at 7.5 mil max
Rielly needs a steady defense first partner not Ceci
Muzzin seems very shaky this yr .

Rielly ?
? Barrie
Sandin Holl
Ljiligren

Rielly really misses a Hainsey type of a partner

Sign a quality backup for a change around 2 mil

Defense should be our priority this summer
 

Hustlr

Registered User
Oct 1, 2019
1,376
744
Don't care for Ceci .
Weak defensively
Weak on his skates
Gets pushed of the puck all the time
Can't make a pass to save his life

Our main goal in the summer
Defence and a backup goaltender

Trade Johnson and Kappy

I would resign Barrie at 7.5 mil max
Rielly needs a steady defense first partner not Ceci
Muzzin seems very shaky this yr .

Rielly ?
? Barrie
Sandin Holl
Ljiligren

Rielly really misses a Hainsey type of a partner

Sign a quality backup for a change around 2 mil

Defense should be our priority this summer

I don’t think Barrie should be coming back when you just went off on Ceci for being Barrie..

Rielly -
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

Is what I’m thinking.
 

horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
8,308
4,709
I don’t think Barrie should be coming back when you just went off on Ceci for being Barrie..

Rielly -
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

Is what I’m thinking.

You really think Barrie = Ceci

They are both right handed defenceman

Barrie can rush the puck
Ceci can't

Barrie can skate really well
Ceci can't

Barrie can pass the puck
Ceci can't

Barrie will get you 60 pts +
Ceci 10 pts

Barrie has a bomb from the point something we dont have

He plays on the pp

Ceci is tougher

Iam really not seeing what you are seeing

If Iam wrong please let me know
 

Hustlr

Registered User
Oct 1, 2019
1,376
744
You really think Barrie = Ceci

They are both right handed defenceman

Barrie can rush the puck
Ceci can't

Barrie can skate really well
Ceci can't

Barrie can pass the puck
Ceci can't

Barrie will get you 60 pts +
Ceci 10 pts

Barrie has a bomb from the point something we dont have

He plays on the pp

Ceci is tougher

Iam really not seeing what you are seeing

If Iam wrong please let me know

No, and if you read the comments on my cap friendly example you’ll see I already said ceci’s 4.5 cap is more of a placeholder, I’m by no means locked into him there. We can’t afford Barrie for 7.5 without moving assets and it also makes us much softer, as you said you didn’t want. As per the post you quoted, that’s my almost locked in D lineup next year:

Rielly - xxx
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Liljegren
Sandin

I’m not sold on Holl yet, so he could be that 7th guy still.
 

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