Sportsnet: “All bets are off” in regards to Babcock

[Bluelines]

In the late 90's theLeafs finished up a couple of seasons 30-43, 30-44.
Legit I just assumed the team did not have the horses. We were used to losing. Mike Murphy was the coach.

The team fired coach Murphy and replaed him with Quinn.
The result was 45-30 and a trip to the 3rd round. There was a completely different look and feel to that team with the coahing change.

The old saying goes, you don't know what you don't know/ five years of poor defensive play, maybe Babcock is a great coach but he cannot see his blind spots. Maybe his system has holes and he is unable to see them. I like Mike, he is the kind of coach I would love to play for but in the end, its about what is best for the 20 guys who lace their skates up every game, not what I would like.

I would have preferred to see Boucher as the defenceman coach.

Conspiracy theory time, are the assistant coaches intentionally sandbagging to get Mike fired. The guy who has a history of coaching one of the best PP now has one of the worst PP in the League with arguably 3 top 30 offensive stars. A lot of speculation that the Marlies coach will be the next Leafs coach, is there anyone in his way besides Mike? It not like Mikes assistant coaches are Boucher and Crawford, its Haxtall and some other guy. It is a pretty easy path for Keefe to the Leafs HC position.

 

[stickty111]

We are probably still going to be terrible in this road trip.

 

[MapleLeafs77]

This is ridiculous. “Lets wait until the end of the road trip to figure it out”.

How about we salvage this season? How about you grow some balls and do what they should have done in the summer?

Fire dubas and babcock now. This is ridiculous.

 

[Leaf4Life79]

Isn't that bit of a contradiction statement? He says the change won't happen anytime soon, and then says it could happen at the end of the trip.

Because he is just blowing smoke, he doesn't know, just making click bait and assumptions.

 

[Leaf Fans]

You can't win in a Salary Cap World with multiple double digit AAV players as you have spent yourself out of Cup competitiveness and your supporting cast is simply not good enough.

Just ask the Chicago Blackhawks and LA Kings .. Both teams won multiple Stanley Cups on the backs of their current stars Toews, Kane, Kopitar and Drew Doughty with some even winning the Conn Smythe.

The catch is this was BEFORE they signed their double digit AAV contracts rewarding player performance and now can't make the playoffs with the same star players that took them to ultimate success.

Now where are their Cup winning coaches Joel Q and Darryl Sutter?

Not only do the Leafs have 2 X top AAV players they have 3 of the top 7 highest AAV in the league.

The coach always pay the ultimate price at the expense of Cap management and Babcock was set up to fail before the season even began and will this trend.

Its not going to matter who the Leafs replace Babcock with regardless if its Sheldon Keefe or Scotty Bowman the end result will be the same. IMO

All bets are off as to what happens next after your replace the coach and the outcome doesn't change?

PS. Much like Joel Quenneville now having the Florida Panthers in 8th overall a perennial non playoff team while the Hawks continue to struggle in the bottom 10, I expect Babcock to land on his feet in short order and take his next team to the playoffs like he does with regularity.

That changes when a team does win with multiple double digit AVV players of course.

 

[Stand Witness]

I don't know... I don't think Dubas is going to make a decision based on three games. Thats against everything he's always preached.... Remember this whole "recency bias" thing that was a hot-topic around here a few years ago??

I do more-or-less agree with the rest of your thoughts. On one hand, its not really the coach's systems that are the issue, its that our players who aren't really playing hard. That IS a fault of a coach, but it it also the fault of his players.

On the other hand, the players have a job to do, and they're not doing it. Its clear that our players aren't very strong defensively, and until some roster turnover happens, I really don't think it matters who coaches this roster...

I agree about the recency bias thing but I also wonder if thats the case why not just now then?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

great, so treat the next 3+ games as optional and further piss the season away. The decision as of now couldn't be more obvious, so they're making a mistake

 

[Pinto]

SI know no one from management has actually said it, but really if the plan is to “see how the next 3 games go and then we’ll make a decision” then they’ve already made their decision. No need to further piss the season away.

 

[biotk]

From what I gather, it won't happen before the end of the road trip, which lasts until November 30th. Leafs play a back to back Nov 29 and 30th when they finally get back home.

So there's a 12 day period here where Babcock can save his job. If they are win-less or still completely awful, it's likely his job will be on the hot seat after November 30th, which means this is not any time soon.

If the Leafs are firing Babcock (I have my doubts that they will anytime soon - which for me means he lasts the season or longer) the time that makes the most sense - especially if the replacement is Keefe - is immediately after the Colorado game. Yes the Leafs have two more road games but they are in Detroit 4 days after Colorado and then in Buffalo 2 days after that. Surely they are coming home after Colorado and practicing for a couple days before hopping over to Detroit.

If you fire Babcock on Sunday after playing in Colorado on Saturday night you can hire Keefe (who would be coaching the Marlies at home that afternoon and then the Marlies don't play for another 5 days). Keefe, Dubas and Shanahan can have a meeting with the team Sunday night. They can practice at home on Monday and Tuesday and then go to Detroit for the game Wednesday evening - allowing Keefe and the team to get off on a much better foot than if they wait until after the back-to-back against Buffalo (when firing Babcock the next day would likely only give the new coach one practice before they play a back to back against Philly and Colorado.

If they replace Babcock with one of the current assistants then they might as well do so now. If they bring in an outsider, the right time would depend on who that person is.

But again, as someone who has been calling for Babcock to be fired for more than a year and a half, I will believe it when I see it.

 

[Mess]

That changes when a team does win with multiple double digit AVV players of course.

Pretty hard to win the Cup if you can't make the playoffs.

This is not a coaching issue, its a cap management issue. IMO

Joel Q won 3 Stanley Cups and then with Toews/Kane got paid, the Hawks struggle to make the playoffs.. Coach Q didn't suddenly become a bad coach and forget how to coach, his player personnel depth at the cost of salary cap issues was the nail in his coffin.

The reality of a Salary Cap World is that its designed to level the playing surface and focus on financial decisions to have parity on the ice with your player personnel decisions and if you want to have cap heavy players then the consequence are a bunch of offsetting cheap ELC or AHL level players and then have those players play key roles in your teams depth and success.

If Babcock a coach that has won the Stanley Cup and is 7th all time in Wins and has 17 years NHL experience can't overcome a Cap heavy AAV handicapped team, then I don't like our chances with a rookie NHL coach with Zero NHL games experience to achieve success.

If I had to hitch my wagon to either Babcock or Keefe to overcome this, I would be all in betting on Babs.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Pretty hard to win the Cup if you can't make the playoffs.

This is not a coaching issue, its a cap management issue. IMO

Joel Q won 3 Stanley Cups and then with Toews/Kane got paid, the Hawks struggle to make the playoffs.. Coach Q didn't suddenly become a bad coach and forget how to coach, his player personnel depth at the cost of salary cap issues was the nail in his coffin.

The reality of a Salary Cap World is that its designed to level the playing surface and focus on financial decisions to have parity on the ice with your player personnel decisions and if you want to have cap heavy players then the consequence are a bunch of offsetting cheap ELC or AHL level players and then have those players play key roles in your teams depth and success.

If Babcock a coach that has won the Stanley Cup and is 7th all time in Wins and has 17 years NHL experience can't overcome a Cap heavy AAV handicapped team, then I don't like our chances with a rookie NHL coach with Zero NHL games experience to achieve success.

If I had to hitch my wagon to either Babcock or Keefe to overcome this, I would be all in betting on Babs.

In fact it will be impossible to win the Cup if we don't make the playoffs.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

My guess is Babs will be asked to change team systems soon. If he gets stubborn and does nothing then he will go. But I am not sure that's what Shanny will do. I think this one is over Dubie's head.

 

[MyBudJT]

I agree about the recency bias thing but I also wonder if thats the case why not just now then?

Because this team's failures co-incide with a lot of other factors. Mainly injuries...

Babcock is one of the most successful coaches in NHL history. You better make sure you've explored all options before cutting ties with him.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I think where there's smoke, there's fire. less than a week ago Babcock seemed very safe. Now all the media is flipping that around and saying he could be in trouble. So I believe this 3 game test. And if anything, its not a test, but rather travel logistics and such. I mean, it would be easier and look better for the new coach to start at home rather than in the middle of a tire fire western road trip.

The issue is, it looks worse on the players to dog it for 3 more games. This is why I was hoping he would be canned the second he stepped off the bench in Pittsburgh. Now you have the potential of public and media backlash against the players for 3 more games, which isn't good for anyone "Not my players, not my team!". And/or they squeak out a few points on the trip, potentially saving Babcock's job and just delaying the inevitable or even worse, them waiting til the offseason, making it a lost season where we finish 10th with a team not motivated to play for an out of touch coach.

 

[stickty111]

great, so treat the next 3+ games as optional and further piss the season away. The decision as of now couldn't be more obvious, so they're making a mistake

If management(Dubas/Shanahan) are not firing him even after a year worth of bad play, but are going to keep him if they play well in 3 games, we have problems.

 

[biotk]

McGran, at the Toronto Star believes that the Leafs are just going to tank hard this season - either leaving Babs in charge for the season or hiring an interim coach - rest Freddie a lot, trade Barrie etc, and go for a bottom 10 finish in the hopes of keeping their first with a top-10 pick. Then bring in Keefe the next year.

He feels that making a change like bringing in Keefe now would require that Dubas believes in his roster.

It's a dark take. I don't believe it - tanking with a first that is only top-10 protected is a hell of a risk, but if in the next couple days Barrie is traded for futures that would be a strong indication.

 

[Mess]

My guess is Babs will be asked to change team systems soon. If he gets stubborn and does nothing then he will go. But I am not sure that's what Shanny will do. I think this one is over Dubie's head.

Sheldon Keefe on Leafs Lunch last week for a Q & A ..

Here is his response to working with Babcock and emulating his system at the AHL level, and developing his players to play within that same system.

How much of the systems do you share between the Marlies and Leafs? How much do they expect the Marlies to experiment with new systems?

Keefe: The process really hasn’t changed a whole lot in terms of my relationship with the Leafs and with Mike Babcock and the Leafs staff. I take part in all of their meetings in the summertime and I’m with them all through camp and exhibition season. I am just fortunate enough to be a part of that staff throughout the entire process. Most of the players that are with us now are also in that mix. Learning the system and the structure — that part of it doesn’t change when they come here, obviously.

We are trying to build players to play for the Maple Leafs, so how we are playing defensively and the structure that we play with and the expectation of what they want here is something we work towards every single day. We are constantly pulling clips from Leafs games and showings them to players what they are expected to know and what it looks like at the NHL level. We are reinforcing that daily.

Within that, we believe given we are more in a development level, we are also trying to try different things and push players beyond a certain structure and a certain system — trying to create really complete players and work on different skills that may be more advanced beyond what is expected so that when the opportunities are there, they can take advantage of them. But certainly knowing the structure and knowing the spots to be in is priority one, and that’s established very well by Mike and the Leafs training camp by day one of training camp.

Sheldon Keefe on the Toronto Marlies' systems: | Maple Leafs Hotstove

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Sheldon Keefe on Leafs Lunch last week for a Q & A ..

Here is his response to working with Babcock and emulating his system at the AHL level, and developing his players to play within that same system.

How much of the systems do you share between the Marlies and Leafs? How much do they expect the Marlies to experiment with new systems?

Keefe: The process really hasn’t changed a whole lot in terms of my relationship with the Leafs and with Mike Babcock and the Leafs staff. I take part in all of their meetings in the summertime and I’m with them all through camp and exhibition season. I am just fortunate enough to be a part of that staff throughout the entire process. Most of the players that are with us now are also in that mix. Learning the system and the structure — that part of it doesn’t change when they come here, obviously.

We are trying to build players to play for the Maple Leafs, so how we are playing defensively and the structure that we play with and the expectation of what they want here is something we work towards every single day. We are constantly pulling clips from Leafs games and showings them to players what they are expected to know and what it looks like at the NHL level. We are reinforcing that daily.

Within that, we believe given we are more in a development level, we are also trying to try different things and push players beyond a certain structure and a certain system — trying to create really complete players and work on different skills that may be more advanced beyond what is expected so that when the opportunities are there, they can take advantage of them. But certainly knowing the structure and knowing the spots to be in is priority one, and that’s established very well by Mike and the Leafs training camp by day one of training camp.

Sheldon Keefe on the Toronto Marlies' systems: | Maple Leafs Hotstove

Yes that is the politically correct answer. But go watch a Marlie game or two like I do with my seasons. Why do the words not match the play????????????????????????????????

 

[Clark4Ever]

McGran, at the Toronto Star believes that the Leafs are just going to tank hard this season - either leaving Babs in charge for the season or hiring an interim coach - rest Freddie a lot, trade Barrie etc, and go for a bottom 10 finish in the hopes of keeping their first with a top-10 pick. Then bring in Keefe the next year.

He feels that making a change like bringing in Keefe now would require that Dubas believes in his roster.

It's a dark take. I don't believe it - tanking with a first that is only top-10 protected is a hell of a risk, but if in the next couple days Barrie is traded for futures that would be a strong indication.

That would be incredibly disappointing given that there is 3/4 of the season left to play.

If that happens, count me out until next season.

 

[Cor]

McGran, at the Toronto Star believes that the Leafs are just going to tank hard this season - either leaving Babs in charge for the season or hiring an interim coach - rest Freddie a lot, trade Barrie etc, and go for a bottom 10 finish in the hopes of keeping their first with a top-10 pick. Then bring in Keefe the next year.

He feels that making a change like bringing in Keefe now would require that Dubas believes in his roster.

It's a dark take. I don't believe it - tanking with a first that is only top-10 protected is a hell of a risk, but if in the next couple days Barrie is traded for futures that would be a strong indication.

The Leafs aren't tanking.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That would be incredibly disappointing given that there is 3/4 of the season left to play.

If that happens, count me out until next season.

Don't worry. That will not happen. The BOOOOOOING for our real season ticket holders like me will be so LOOOUUUD it will not last.

 

[Judas Tavares]

McGran, at the Toronto Star believes that the Leafs are just going to tank hard this season - either leaving Babs in charge for the season or hiring an interim coach - rest Freddie a lot, trade Barrie etc, and go for a bottom 10 finish in the hopes of keeping their first with a top-10 pick. Then bring in Keefe the next year.

He feels that making a change like bringing in Keefe now would require that Dubas believes in his roster.

It's a dark take. I don't believe it - tanking with a first that is only top-10 protected is a hell of a risk, but if in the next couple days Barrie is traded for futures that would be a strong indication.

I mean, usually there is a silver lining to everything. And in this situation, yes you can find some positives as crazy as that sounds. And you know what, not all stories are linear. Contending teams have had stumbles along the way and lost seasons, whether the Blues, Caps, Lightning etc... It's all happened and it makes sense. Injuries, parity among the league etc... It's not all gonna go the way you want and improve each year.

The issue here is timing. We are running out of time with certain contracts such as Freddy and Rielly. If we had suitable replacements, fine. But at this point, we don't know that yet. I believe this window is longer than others think, but it will only be open that long with shrewd moves and good development. If you can tell me that this lost season will lead to long term gain going forward, sure, I'll grin and bear through it. If its just a lost year we can't get back in the future, there is a problem.

 

[Teeder Keon]

Ok sire and yeah that's who he might have been... sorry bout that I can't remember all russians who fly out the nest and tell on. But mayne he surely told the truth... with evidense. And I ain't mad at that. Not by any means.

PC police
You can’t remember all Russians
Tsk tsk
Do they all look , sound , drink vodka and dance alike ?
Tsk tsk
No soup for you , get out of my Kitchen

 

[Crysis]

We are probably still going to be terrible in this road trip.

Pro Line has a minimum of 3 games per ticket right? Not offering financial or gambling advice but this might be the closest thing to guaranteed money you could imagine.

 

[TheShape]

I’m not a fan of Mike Babcock and don’t believe he is the right fit for this team. But with that said, he is who he is and the longer he is kept around the more blame is on management than anyone else.