Sportsnet: “All bets are off” in regards to Babcock

[Cor]

Our mediocre play goes back to last January. This isn't some new phenomenon as a result of injuries. This downward spiral started last year, before we were in cap hell, before all new faces, before injuries, etc.

The Babcock supporters just dont' get that. This has been going on for a year now. Something has to give and teams don't trade away franchise players without first seeing if a new coach can bring about positive change.

Yup.

Turnover with the assistants. Turnover on the roster.

Babcock complained about Muzzin not being a righty when we acquired him. Dubas went and got a righty. Babcock complained about the depth, and Dubas went out and added the depth. (Which is funny, because Babcock never changes anything, so it doesn't matter about having depth because he never uses it).

Babcock is a fine coach. He can be the right coach somewhere. I do think he no longer fits with how this team needs to play. His system doesn't fit with the majority of this team. I think Babcock could be a good coach in Dallas, maybe Minny, maybe Detroit again. I think he's served his purpose. He helped change the organization. He helped instill a certain mindset, but now his systems, and his views on how the team should play don't match up with the roster being built.

Thinking a coach should be fired doesn't mean you think he's a bad coach. It means you think he's not the right coach.

 

[leburn98]

This is ridiculous. “Lets wait until the end of the road trip to figure it out”.

How about we salvage this season? How about you grow some balls and do what they should have done in the summer?

Fire dubas and babcock now. This is ridiculous.

Actually there were rumors/reports this summer that Dubas wanted to fire Babcock after last year's first round exit. Apparently Shanny stepped in to cool things down.

This is what Feschuk wrote in October (he wasn't the only one to report it):

Babcock was nearly made to walk the plank after the Maple Leafs lost to the Bruins in the first round last spring. Sources say there was considerable disagreement in the Maple Leafs front office on the matter of the famously stubborn head coach’s continuing employment. Certainly it’s no secret Babcock’s grind-and-size leanings don’t often jibe with GM Kyle Dubas’s skill-above-all vision of the sport. Clearly it was a point of contention that Babcock spent the season taking not-so-veiled shots at Toronto’s roster makeup.

Article: Mike Babcock’s tenure nearly ended last spring. Another first-round exit will seal the deal | The Star

 

[MyBudJT]

Our mediocre play goes back to last January. This isn't some new phenomenon as a result of injuries. This downward spiral started last year, before we were in cap hell, before all new faces, before injuries, etc.

The Babcock supporters just dont' get that. This has been going on for a year now. Something has to give and teams don't trade away franchise players without first seeing if a new coach can bring about positive change.

1) We've had a lot of injuries going back to last January... How many games have we had a complete roster since then?
2) Our roster is completely different than it was last January

"The Babcock supporters"... Pegging people into categories (especially when they're not factual), to try and downplay their argument is incredibly weak and tiresome. Until you show that you can be reasoning, and undergo a proper debate, I'm done with you...

 

[Fogelhund]

Babcock's time is over here, the sooner they pull the plug, the better. Like @Cor has suggested, that doesn't mean he's terrible, it just isn't working here anymore, or he's the wrong fit... or a bit of both.

 

[Trapper]

Certainly the easier, quicker way. The other way is to being in a GM that has Babs' vision but it would much longer to bring in the right mix of players.

Babs is on life support. I can't believe he is so stubborn to adapt that he will die on that hill, but it sure looks like it is going to end that way. Another effort like the last one and I'd pull the trigger and get on with it.

I also don’t remember any vote of confidence for the coach during this time.

Usually now would be your “press conference” especially after Pittsburgh but nada.

 

[MyBudJT]

Yup.

Turnover with the assistants. Turnover on the roster.

Babcock complained about Muzzin not being a righty when we acquired him. Dubas went and got a righty. Babcock complained about the depth, and Dubas went out and added the depth. (Which is funny, because Babcock never changes anything, so it doesn't matter about having depth because he never uses it).

Babcock is a fine coach. He can be the right coach somewhere. I do think he no longer fits with how this team needs to play. His system doesn't fit with the majority of this team. I think Babcock could be a good coach in Dallas, maybe Minny, maybe Detroit again. I think he's served his purpose. He helped change the organization. He helped instill a certain mindset, but now his systems, and his views on how the team should play don't match up with the roster being built.

Thinking a coach should be fired doesn't mean you think he's a bad coach. It means you think he's not the right coach.

This has very little to do with what I was discussing...

Overall, you make a lot of good points, and I agree with most of it.

 

[ToneDog]

I also don’t remember any vote of confidence for the coach during this time.

Usually now would be your “press conference” especially after Pittsburgh but nada.

The mystery continues for a few more gong show losses. Hopefully in the meantime Dubas is talking to the GM of the gong show in Calgary and there is a deal to be made.

 

[Fogelhund]

The mystery continues for a few more gong show losses. Hopefully in the meantime Dubas is talking to the GM of the gong show in Calgary and there is a deal to be made.

Ducks have a poorer record than Calgary, and I'd be down for trading for Manson and Ritchie....

 

[Clark4Ever]

I DESPISE this mentality.

“hey, we’ve been dog **** and poorly coached for the past year now, but if the next 3 games go well... we’re good!”

Seriously. I hope we lose the next 3 games in a lopsided manner if that's what it takes to get management to make a decision that is long overdue.

 

[ToneDog]

Ducks have a poorer record than Calgary, and I'd be down for trading for Manson and Ritchie....

I'd be good with that but the difference is that the heat will be 10x that in Anaheim.

 

[4thline]

Judging the GM, seems to be much harder than judging the Coach.

We see what the coach does, the results.

We criticize the GM, because he didn't bring in a defensive RD... ok, but we lack the knowledge to know, if one was even available, if the asking price was reasonable... etc.
Plus, if we get a new coach, maybe the team suddenly comes to life, and the GM looks like the hero.

Like the trading star players thread, I don't care who coaches, or who GM's this team... just friggin win.

There are holes with the team, but I'm personally holding off on GM judgement, until such time as a new coach comes in. I'm seeing a coaching issue for now.

People are upset, and everyone is getting scapegoated, which is understandable, but it lacks any type of scientific rationality. When something isn't working, you replace one variable at a time, by probability that it is the problem. Look, we swapped out a bunch of D, we made some roster changes, and the issues are the exact same as the issues have been the last couple of years. Yes, there are still roster issues, but when you change a bunch of players, and the issues are still the exact same, that points to a Coach to me.

Replace what seems to be wrong, and then you get to test out where you are again... Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't....

Well said. The way I see it is this.

You've got Favourites, Contenders, Playoff Teams, Bubble teams, Non Playoff teams, and Basement Dwellers. An on paper favourite gets a 6, contender a 5, playoff team 4 etc.

But games aren't played on paper, before you factor in luck you've got chemistry, systems, engagement, buy in etc that act on the paper score.

I'd give this team a paper rating of 4.5ish. They should be a high end playoff team on the edge of being a contender, that if they peaked at the right time could win it all. They're playing like a 2.5 at best. You have to try to address that gap before tearing it all down and valuing the whole roster at 2.5.

 

[Carltons Cup]

If I was to sit back and observe the happenings of this team with a neutral eye, I'd say everything is all on the players. Period. Ever since everyone has gotten "paid", there seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst the core and their compete level just isn't there. No grit. No 60 minute efforts. Nada. Regardless of how much a player makes, it's their job to come out every night with a 100% effort despite the results. If the kids can't motivate themselves to want to be called "Champions" then that's a huge issue in and of itself. They seem like they're content with getting their next paycheque.

I live in Maryland and I liken the situation to the Ravens' Lamar Jackson. The kid is in 2nd year. He's incredibly humble and not star struck. Doesn't care about the MVP chatter. He takes losing personally. All he ever talks about is winning the next game and the Super Bowl AND his efforts match what comes out of his mouth. We don't see ANY of this with our Core.

That's not to say Babs doesn't deserve some of the blame. In his first few years, he provided great results of multiple 100+ point seasons and almost squeaked out playoff upsets. However, his message or his style has gotten stale with the team. Unfortunately, the axe will fall on him first.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Our mediocre play goes back to last January. This isn't some new phenomenon as a result of injuries. This downward spiral started last year, before we were in cap hell, before all new faces, before injuries, etc.

The Babcock supporters just dont' get that. This has been going on for a year now. Something has to give and teams don't trade away franchise players without first seeing if a new coach can bring about positive change.

This is it. How much larger of a sample size is needed?

For almost a calendar year, we haven't been much better than a lottery team, and that's the bottom line.

 

[Teeder Keon]

This is it. How much larger of a sample size is needed?

For almost a calendar year, we haven't been much better than a lottery team, and that's the bottom line.

This is it. How much larger of a sample size is needed?

For almost a calendar year, we haven't been much better than a lottery team, and that's the bottom line.

 

[BLONG7]

Does anyone remember, why Babs was given 8 years? Most coaches are lucky to get 4-5 years....

 

[Teeder Keon]

 

[FrozenJagrt]

If the coach was willing to make adjustments to try and find a way to win, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact is, however, that the only change this team has made to the gameplan in over a year is to switch Marner and Matthews on the power play. Everything else looks the same.

 

[Walshy7]

Ducks have a poorer record than Calgary, and I'd be down for trading for Manson and Ritchie....

isn’t Manson injury prone? Actually isn’t he injured as we speak? No thanks to Tanev Mark II at the cost they will demand

 

[Daisy Jane]

Seriously. I hope we lose the next 3 games in a lopsided manner if that's what it takes to get management to make a decision that is long overdue.

actually, i'd rather win and they still decide to fire them.
just because you do well, doesn't mean you're still the right person.

 

[LeafGrief]

So I'm one of the guys on the "Fire Babcock" train and am fine with Dubas remaining in the GM's job. Here's how I feel about the situation.

We clearly have a problem with the coach. The Leafs have been soft as butter since Burke was fired and been bad defensively since... forever? We were soft as shit and bad defensively the past two seasons and managed 100 points. This year the team is playing like an absolute dumpster fire and there is no planet on which losing Ron Hainsey and Nikita Zaitsev for Barrie and Ceci takes us from 100 points to 80 points. There are deep issues with the way this team is being coached both on the ice and with the relationship between the players and the coach. The coach 100% must be fired.

But when I say the coach must be fired, that does not absolve the players or even the GM from responsibility here. I don't care how bad the coach is, these guys are playing like gutless pukes and that's not acceptable in any job, much less one where you are getting paid millions of dollars. There probably needs to be a reckoning there and we might need to trade one or two key pieces to build a team that can win in the playoffs. The problem with that right now is that how do you accurately analyze the team when the season is literally on fire? We are so far into upside-down land that Tyson Barrie is playing worse than Cody Ceci, so how can you accurately determine which players are the pukes and which ones are worth rehabilitating to be winners? We need to get a coach who can at least get some of the roster going so we can have a proper assessment and make some decisions about the way forward.

And of course that brings me to the GM. I think he's made some good moves and some bad moves, but until we have a coach that isn't driving the team into the ground how do we even analyze the GM? I honestly don't care if he's fired or not, but it's not his fault that the PP is awful. Firing the coach is the first step in properly determining whether the GM needs to go. The GM is the one who bears the ultimate responsibility for the season and if we crash and burn this year that's 100% Dubas's fault. Whether it's from building a brutal team or just sitting on his hands for too long about Babcock, Dubas is the one who has to right the ship. Fire the coach and see how he does. If he can't fix things, fire him too. Honestly, if management decides that Babcock has to go and walks Dubas out with him, that's fine with me, I just don't think Dubas has earned his pink slip yet.

 

[Fogelhund]

isn’t Manson injury prone? Actually isn’t he injured as we speak? No thanks to Tanev Mark II at the cost they will demand

He's missed 21 games in the prior 4 seasons. That's five games a season... hardly Tanev Mark II.

Take a look at any physical D, who blocks shots... they are going to miss a few games now and then.

 

[LeafGrief]

actually, i'd rather win and they still decide to fire them.
just because you do well, doesn't mean you're still the right person.

Worst case scenario is that we play like crap and win a couple of shootouts (like the Philly game) to go 2-1 and that keeps Babcock around for another month. The sooner we get a new coach the sooner we get the players playing the new system. If the writing is on the wall every delay is a failure and hurts our chances of salvaging the season.

 

[biotk]

If I was to sit back and observe the happenings of this team with a neutral eye, I'd say everything is all on the players. Period. Ever since everyone has gotten "paid", there seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst the core and their compete level just isn't there.

Team has sucked since the end of December. That doesn't correspond at all with when everyone has gotten "paid." It does correspond though with when Babs stopped moaning after every game that the team was playing the wrong way (but winning) and started saying that he liked what the team was doing (even though they were losing - but losing Babs' way).

 

[Trapper]

isn’t Manson injury prone? Actually isn’t he injured as we speak? No thanks to Tanev Mark II at the cost they will demand

If we are making a big deal, it needs to be for someone who hasn't spent his best mileage on someone else.
We need a star equivalent at D. Someone here long term that we can count on.

 

[biotk]

isn’t Manson injury prone? Actually isn’t he injured as we speak? No thanks to Tanev Mark II at the cost they will demand

No chance the Ducks are trading Manson.