Fogelhund
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Not a big Brian Burke fan, but he's pretty much on the money here.
Sportsnet: “All bets are off” in regards to Babcock
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Not a big Brian Burke fan, but he's pretty much on the money here.
I agree. But Babcock does not appear to be getting fired today. The runway keeps on getting shorter in a league that has a lot of parity. If for instance Babcock was fired after the next 3 games, assuming the Leafs lose all three, the team would likely need to play at 110+ point pace for the rest of the season, and that just up as more games pass by. That requires a lot of confidence in the new coach and the roster - not just their ability, but their psyche and ability to come together - if you had that kind of confidence in Keefe and the roster than why was this not already done.
My position is that I am done watching the Leafs until Babcock is gone (the exception will be when they the other team I cheer for, but I will do my best to ignore the Leafs those games). I was frustrated enough when they didn't fire him after the first loss to Boston and even more so in February or March last season with the team playing terrible for months, and even more so after the second Boston loss.
Probably - I have always said that if Dubas and Shanahan are fine with how Babcock is doing then the issue is the roster in which case Dubas and Shanahan should be fired.
rumman
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this is about the sanest interview I've heard from Burke. Spot on assessment imo.
Fogelhund
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Judging the GM, seems to be much harder than judging the Coach.
We see what the coach does, the results.
We criticize the GM, because he didn't bring in a defensive RD... ok, but we lack the knowledge to know, if one was even available, if the asking price was reasonable... etc.
Plus, if we get a new coach, maybe the team suddenly comes to life, and the GM looks like the hero.
Like the trading star players thread, I don't care who coaches, or who GM's this team... just friggin win.
There are holes with the team, but I'm personally holding off on GM judgement, until such time as a new coach comes in. I'm seeing a coaching issue for now.
People are upset, and everyone is getting scapegoated, which is understandable, but it lacks any type of scientific rationality. When something isn't working, you replace one variable at a time, by probability that it is the problem. Look, we swapped out a bunch of D, we made some roster changes, and the issues are the exact same as the issues have been the last couple of years. Yes, there are still roster issues, but when you change a bunch of players, and the issues are still the exact same, that points to a Coach to me.
Replace what seems to be wrong, and then you get to test out where you are again... Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't....
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CDN24
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Albert Iafrate
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The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. - F. Scott Fitzgerald
This "team x" vs "team y" bullshit is so stupid. This isn't the movie Twilight and we aren't pre-teen girls.
Mess
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Because the level of talent in the AHL <<<<<<<<<<<< NHL
The Pontus Aberg and Kenny Agostino who are the best players on the AHL team and not good enough to be 4th line NHLers with the Leafs.
Kasimir Kaskisuo has a 2.13 GAA and .938 sv% at the AHL level and 6.00 GAA and .842 sv% when its Malkin shooting the puck at you.
The systems and structures are similar its the level of competition and talent level that make it appear there is AHL success that is transferable and translatable to NHL success.
If you swap Babcock with Keefe, do fans expect to get Kaskisuo AHL level results at the NHL level?
Trapper
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I find this deeply disturbing.
rumman
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ACC1224
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Got it, thanks.
Guess I should have assumed it was something pretty dumb.
Albert Iafrate
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Personally, I don't think anyone is "wrong" here. The only issue I have is that managment is stalling on what seems inevitable. I don't think what gets talked about enough is whether Shanny has a sense of loyalty to Babcock, considering he coached in Detroit.
I see the current predicament as extremely basic. Babcock was brought in to coach a team that was awful in 2015. He did what any good coach would do in said circumstance. Given that his roster was extremely lacking in skill, he constructed a system to help to make the team better in spite of the roster. It wasn't fun to watch but after two years, the team was achieving regular season success, even though their top players were guys like Tyler Bozak and JVR. The problem is that Babcock's lack of flexibility still has him trapped in coaching this way, even though we now have the talent to play a style more suited to skill. There is no longer a need to grind out wins. We don't have a shitty team on paper any more.
I'm reminded of the Raptors. Coach Casey had developed a system that made an player like Demar Derozan look like an all-star in the regular season. The system was successful in covering up the flaws that ultimately lead to playoff disappointment. So, Masai went out, got an actual All-Star in Leonard, and brought in a coach to take the team to the next level, someone who happened to be with the organization already, who the player knew and trusted. I'm not saying Sheldon Keefe is Nick Nurse, and that we are going to win the cup if we make the switch, but it is often the case that a coach plays a role until he stalls out and a new voice needs to be brought in to move the team to another level.
I see the current predicament as extremely basic. Babcock was brought in to coach a team that was awful in 2015. He did what any good coach would do in said circumstance. Given that his roster was extremely lacking in skill, he constructed a system to help to make the team better in spite of the roster. It wasn't fun to watch but after two years, the team was achieving regular season success, even though their top players were guys like Tyler Bozak and JVR. The problem is that Babcock's lack of flexibility still has him trapped in coaching this way, even though we now have the talent to play a style more suited to skill. There is no longer a need to grind out wins. We don't have a shitty team on paper any more.
I'm reminded of the Raptors. Coach Casey had developed a system that made an player like Demar Derozan look like an all-star in the regular season. The system was successful in covering up the flaws that ultimately lead to playoff disappointment. So, Masai went out, got an actual All-Star in Leonard, and brought in a coach to take the team to the next level, someone who happened to be with the organization already, who the player knew and trusted. I'm not saying Sheldon Keefe is Nick Nurse, and that we are going to win the cup if we make the switch, but it is often the case that a coach plays a role until he stalls out and a new voice needs to be brought in to move the team to another level.
craig button was making far too much sense on first up this morning, i kept thinking "is this THE craig button or a guy with the same name". Great example of claude julien who won with the bruins as a hard grinding team, he then kept trying to play that way until he was fired. His 1st year in montreal he tried that same grind em out style it didnt work and this season he has changed the style completely and its paying dividends (so far). That is an example of a coach adjusting something that isnt working, babs believes his style will work so keep shoving it down their throats
That's a factor for sure no doubt talent is better in NHL. But it is not as big as many believe. Did you know in measurement tests of speed over the years the average difference is less than 1%. And the 3 guys you mentioned are solid vets but certainly not the best on team. But they are wylie vets who know how to play a little better with more pro hockey beneath them. They are there in case of injury to big club to help out short term.
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And about 2 weeks ago it was all about how Babcock was right and great and the roster was full of crappy and lazy players. Same for Button. And other media. Now they are flipping the switch. And again I ask is it because they realize Babcock is not the guy. Or is it because they want to align with everyone else to save face/please the masses.
Coachcorner
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Definitely not sire. This was the only one, My head couldn't spin it whom he was at the moment... didn't remember ozghinanov at all at the moment. Some of min favourites were russian players with the maple leafs in the past. But min is trying to remember thangs better from now on. Don't know why ich couldn't remember the oz. His comments and revelations were very important concerning our future. Now that its all out we're better off. This week will determine real hard our strategy and problems and future. We might get rid of some fools who won't admit mistakes. Dubas should be the first one though. Just take the last page out of Lou's book and be better.
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And this is why I believe the coaching change has potential. I know a lot of people feel its not only roster construction, but also the individuals themselves that make up this team that is the problem. And hey, it could be. But with that Julien example, the Berube example and other examples, whether in Pittsburgh and Washington. There is enough out there to suggest that making a coaching change could be a solution. Yes, you would still need to tinker with the roster. But why not try a new coach?
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Yeah I heard Craig this morning. Like the fan base the media also has their opinion of where the problem lies. Shanny has to figure out whether it is the coach or GM and act. They cannot afford for this disgusting, unacceptable, gong show to continue much longer at which point it will all be mute.
Our mediocre play goes back to last January. This isn't some new phenomenon as a result of injuries. This downward spiral started last year, before we were in cap hell, before all new faces, before injuries, etc.
The Babcock supporters just dont' get that. This has been going on for a year now. Something has to give and teams don't trade away franchise players without first seeing if a new coach can bring about positive change.
Fogelhund
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The job of the Media, is to get attention for the Media... at least in most of these commentaries. If you say just about everything, something you say will be right, and in the meantime, people will talk about you... the more you say, the more attention you get.
well to figure out if its the GM the coach has to go, so really there is nothing to figure out. Move out Babcock and let Dubas hire someone who aligns with his vision and start the clock on dubas then
Mess
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That is the reality of the situation..
Babcock is currently the buffer & shield scapegoat between Dubas and his own job.
Dubas lottery protected Leafs traded 1st round pick because he recognized based on his player personnel decisions and cap management issues that we would be here. Planning to potentially pick in the top 10 does not equate to believing your building a Cup competitive team but rather a non playoff outcome is quite possible.
What happens in Dubas changes coaches now with Leafs just on the outside of the playoffs presently and the results with a rookie coach make the results even worse rather than better? All the focus now turns to the GM and his job performance since you already tried the coaching change without getting positive results.
Leafs spent themselves into to Cap Hell and that is a GM issue not a coaching problem. Once successful teams like Hawks and Kings now with multiple double digit AAV players are regular non playoff teams because those high-end salaries don't allow teams to ice cup competitive teams. Dubas knows that very well.
So Dubas has to be patient to remove his shield, and hope Babcock can turn this around or fall completely out of contention first. .So if he does need to make a coaching change it has to be after the season is lost essentially because then Keefe's results are masked by a no win situation position and you get another chance next year and second chance.
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ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Certainly the easier, quicker way. The other way is to being in a GM that has Babs' vision but it would much longer to bring in the right mix of players.
Babs is on life support. I can't believe he is so stubborn to adapt that he will die on that hill, but it sure looks like it is going to end that way. Another effort like the last one and I'd pull the trigger and get on with it.
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