Proposal: Zacha + McLeod for W. Nylander + Marincin

[Devilsfan118]

Whiskey threads should be an auto lock at this point.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

When has re-uniting junior lines ever worked? If the Devils can find a way to make their team better i dont see why they wouldnt be willing to move one of those guys.

You're looking at it purely from an on-paper, production angle.

I'm talking about the culture they're trying to foster. The immediate pre-Shero Devils was a country club of old men that got playing time most of them didn't deserve. 2013-15 was the weirdest Devils hockey I've ever witnessed.

Shero is clearly trying to build the organization with certain levels of familiarity, camaraderie, etc

 

[John Pedro]

Wrong. I followed both players all year and Zacha was very very underwhelming for most of it. Against juniors no less.

Nylander was less than impressive in the AHL playoffs. Soft, no sense of urgency, he only looked good on the PP.

I mean, at least with Zacha you get a huge player who's fast, hits like a truck, plays good defense and have a hell of a shot. And he showed just that in his NHL debut and his short time in the AHL.

Nylander is the better prospect right now, but let's not act like it would be some sort of aberration if Zacha winds up as the better NHLer.

 

[leaflover]

I'm really hoping Leafs management takes some time to assess what they have before trying to change it. I doubt you'll see any of the top 3-4 prospects dealt prior to being granted an appropriate amount of opportunity to develop some chemistry and become comfortable in the NHL. An educated mind generally makes better decisions than one acting strictly on a whim.
A year or two of development and assessment is the smart move early in this rebuild.

 

[DerekDevils30]

Whiskey in the jarro at it again. Nylander is a good one but the Devils are not in a position to trade two of their top prospects away

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Zacha will score 35 points this season, a guy who will be slotted on the 1st PP due to his shot will have a much higher potential point total than that. I swear you hate the Devils, these projections are pretty bad.

What's wrong with my projections? I think that his bottom 10th percentile is 35 points in terms of prime production, while 55 points would be in the 90th percentile. That said, I think Zacha could certainly score 35 points or even more this year, as he is IMO already very far along his own development curve. I think he'll be a bit like a Jordan Staal in terms of development curve - he should be able to come in and make an immediate impact because of his physical maturity, but I don't see him making astronomical improvements beyond that. I expect him to put up anywhere between ~25 and ~40 points as a rookie, with the ability to add another ~10-15 points beyond that at his peak.

Also, if you question my allegiance to the devils, maybe you check me out fending off Leaf fans in the Kadri v Palmieri poll

dont mind OP, he undervalues all Devils draft picks because they arent who he wanted them to draft so he just cant accept them being any good.

So what you are saying is that if I didn't like a certain prospect leading up to the draft, and the Devils take him, that I should all of the sudden increase my valuation of the prospect? And if I don't, I am all of the sudden "undervaluing" them?

You could just say that I 'undervalue' all prospects who I didn't like at the spot they were picked - your hypothesis is not dependent on who made the pick.

Sorry that I keep my opinion of a prospect consistent even if my own team drafts him. I think that's called objectivity.

And honestly, the Devils 1st round draft history in the last 12 years hasn't been exactly sparkling, and neither has Shero's (picking J Staal ahead of Toews/Backstrom/Kessel, Esposito over Pacioretty). The Devils and Penguinis 1st round drafting histories since 2005 are actually among the worst in the league IMO. So its not like there is no reason to be skeptical about picks made - especially in terms of forwards picked in the first round.

Even still, more times than not, I've been a fan of the Devils first draft pick in each since 2003 (disagreed with bolded):

Parise
Zajac
Bergfors
Corrente
Hoeffel
Tedenby
Josefson
Merrill
Larsson
Matteau
Quenneville
Zacha
McLeod


Other picks I've liked in the recent past:
Anderson
Bastian
Speers
Seney
Quenneville
Santini
Wood
Severson
Gavrus
Boucher

 

[Currysux*]

Until we see more of Zacha at the professional level, I'd hold off on the "by far" portion in your second stanza.

And, as far as the "duo" comment, it's a concept that has been pushed hard by the staff, most notably Hynes.

Zajac and Palmieri fit like a glove last year.

Hall was acquired for many reasons, but one of them being rekindling what he had with Henrique in juniors.

McLeod and Bastian obviously played together and are good buddies.

They are clearly looking to build a certain culture. I doubt they'd disrupt the progress made there (by trading McLeod), to upgrade at a position/role (Nylander over Zacha) where they have a guy they're already really high on.

No thanks. Nylander isn't that much better than Zacha.

Id take Nylander 10/10 times over Zacha. Nylander has dominated mens league while being under 6' while Zacha was underwhelming in a junior league while being 6'3. Zacha is a boom/bust player Nylander is more of a safer player considering he showed that he can play in the NHL. Just because McLeod and Bastian played well together in the OHL doesnt mean they will in the NHL. They may not even make it. I would hope for your sake that the Devils drafted Bastian because they felt he was the BPA and not because he played with McLeod because that is pretty stupid. The Devils get the best player in the deal by a lot. Shero takes this a runs. If Zacha can't dominant against a bunch of junior players idk how he could have success in the NHL. Some Devils fans on here say the Zacha is made for mens leagues and not junior league tbh i think thats BS but thats their opinion. Many people have Nylander close to or on par with Marner who is leaps and bounds ahead of Zacha. So my point, Nylander isnt a little better than Zacha, hes better by a lot.

 

[Currysux*]

Nylander was less than impressive in the AHL playoffs. Soft, no sense of urgency, he only looked good on the PP.

I mean, at least with Zacha you get a huge player who's fast, hits like a truck, plays good defense and have a hell of a shot. And he showed just that in his NHL debut and his short time in the AHL.

Nylander is the better prospect right now, but let's not act like it would be some sort of aberration if Zacha winds up as the better NHLer.

Zacha was drafted high based on the fact that if he put is skills and tools together, he would become a dominant player and not based on what he had shown. There is a chance of that happening but they arent high. Nylander is a better prospect and a better player right now and will likely be in the future. If you want to critisize Nylanders playoffs at least acknowledge he was playing through and illness and that Zacha was pretty underwhelming against junior players.

 

[Currysux*]

Zacha will score 35 points this season, a guy who will be slotted on the 1st PP due to his shot will have a much higher potential point total than that. I swear you hate the Devils, these projections are pretty bad.

Zacha might not even make the NHL. 35 points is more that what you should expect. If you want more than 35 from him your going to be disappointed.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

Something tells me Whiskey would sell his own kids to get rid of Zacha and McLeod.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Zacha was drafted high based on the fact that if he put is skills and tools together, he would become a dominant player and not based on what he had shown. There is a chance of that happening but they arent high. Nylander is a better prospect and a better player right now and will likely be in the future. If you want to critisize Nylanders playoffs at least acknowledge he was playing through and illness and that Zacha was pretty underwhelming against junior players.

http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2016/07/30-teams-in-30-days-new-jersey-devils.html

"I thought Zacha had a fantastic season. Every time I saw Sarnia this year, he was the best player on the ice. He was much more determined and confident, with and without the puck this year. With it, he was a load to handle for opposing defenses. He's so strong on the puck and has the ability to absolutely dominate the possession game. I don't know how many times I saw him come off the wall and drive the net without anyone able to stop him...."

There is a lot more, this is coming from one of the better OHL eyes out there with a track record to prove it.

 

[Gecklund]

I think value alone favors Toronto but I think that both teams just keep their prospects and see how they turn out.

 

[Atomos2]

Until we see more of Zacha at the professional level, I'd hold off on the "by far" portion in your second stanza.

And, as far as the "duo" comment, it's a concept that has been pushed hard by the staff, most notably Hynes.

Zajac and Palmieri fit like a glove last year.

Hall was acquired for many reasons, but one of them being rekindling what he had with Henrique in juniors.

McLeod and Bastian obviously played together and are good buddies.

They are clearly looking to build a certain culture. I doubt they'd disrupt the progress made there (by trading McLeod), to upgrade at a position/role (Nylander over Zacha) where they have a guy they're already really high on.

I won't respond on the value, but that duo comment especially for prospects is incredibly naive. Junior chemistry rarely transfers over to NHL chemistry. It's a different game and players have to adapt their games to the professional level. It makes it all the more harder to try to maintain that chemistry with another person when the whole pace of the game and the league itself is completely different.

It's like trying to trade away Nylander for Dvorak just because he and Marner had incredible chemistry in junior. And Dvorak and Marner had far greater chemistry than any chemistry Mcleod and Bastian had. But it still would be a terrible move, to focus on just junior chemistry. Terrible.

 

[Homesick]

Hear me out on this one.

With Matthews, the Leafs have their future 1C locked up for the next 7+ years. I see Nylander as an offensive center who seems to find more success when he's the focal point of an offense, which he'll likely not get to be very often with all the talent in Toronto.

Why Toronto does this:
Zacha looks to be a very safe pick to be a solid two-way 2C who can play in all situations and provide a big shot on the power play. McLeod promises to be a solid 2 way 2C/3C with speed to burn. Having 2 big, speedy centers (who both have great games for wing too) with strong 2 way games who can carry the puck and chip in on offense like that would be the perfect fit behind / alongside Matthews and Kadri.

Toronto's forward group could look something like this by 2017-18:
JVR - Matthews - Marner
Kadri - Zacha - Soshnikov
Brown - McLeod - Bozak
Kapanen - Gauthier - Hyman

That is big, fast, and skilled down the middle (aside from goat, who's just big). Of course you have the option of moving Kadri / Bozak to C. Or you could trade one or both of them to pick up a top 4 D.

Why NJ does this:
This gives NJ the young playmaking center they've needed and adds a solid young defensive defenseman to help fill the hole left by Larsson's departure and give Santini more time to develop.

Hall - Henrique - Bennett
Cammalleri - Nylander - Palmieri
Boucher - Zajac - DSP
Kalinin - Fiddler - Josefson

That's 2 pretty good looking scoring lines with a solid 3rd line that can chip in as well. Having Nylander with 2 snipers like 'eri' brothers could be pretty fruitful.

Thoughts? Way off on value? Does it make sense for either side?

As a fan of neither team I would say NJ passes rather quickly.
They need offense badly and Zacha could very easily be one of the best in his draft class

 

[Currysux*]

http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2016/07/30-teams-in-30-days-new-jersey-devils.html

"I thought Zacha had a fantastic season. Every time I saw Sarnia this year, he was the best player on the ice. He was much more determined and confident, with and without the puck this year. With it, he was a load to handle for opposing defenses. He's so strong on the puck and has the ability to absolutely dominate the possession game. I don't know how many times I saw him come off the wall and drive the net without anyone able to stop him...."

There is a lot more, this is coming from one of the better OHL eyes out there with a track record to prove it.

Based on OHL hockey he is agood player. Does the blogger take into account that he was a 6th overall pick? I would like to see if he believes that he was worthy of that pick.Like Ok he can do that against juniors , great. Im not saying he wasnt good. He was a great player but is he what you would expect from a guy that was drafted 6thOV in won of the deepest drafts in recent year?

 

[Currysux*]

As a fan of neither team I would say NJ passes rather quickly.
They need offense badly and Zacha could very easily be one of the best in his draft class

One of the best?

Id definitely take these guys over him:

McDavid
Eichel
Strome
Marner
Hanifin
Provorov
Werenski
Rantanen
Barzal
Connor
Konecny
Boeser
Aho

I dont think that a player that is around the 14th best player is one of the best.

 

[X66]

One of the best?

Id definitely take these guys over him:

McDavid
Eichel
Strome
Marner
Hanifin
Provorov
Werenski
Rantanen
Barzal
Connor
Konecny
Boeser
Aho

I dont think that a player that is around the 14th best player is one of the best.

I've always been high on Zacha, and IMO he'll be a better NHL player than all of those players minus McDavid, Eichel, Strome, Marner, Hanifin and Provorov.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

One of the best?

Id definitely take these guys over him:

McDavid
Eichel
Strome
Marner
Hanifin
Provorov
Werenski
Rantanen
Barzal
Connor
Konecny
Boeser
Aho

I dont think that a player that is around the 14th best player is one of the best.

Lets see these guys play the pro game before we start proclaiming them to be great. Zacha's skillset and game is tailor made for the NHL where all offense is created off the cycle.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

Based on OHL hockey he is agood player. Does the blogger take into account that he was a 6th overall pick? I would like to see if he believes that he was worthy of that pick.Like Ok he can do that against juniors , great. Im not saying he wasnt good. He was a great player but is he what you would expect from a guy that was drafted 6thOV in won of the deepest drafts in recent year?

A lot of the things I have read about Zacha say that his game will transfer to the NHL easier than most of the people he was drafted with.

 

[TheDoldrums]

From Toronto's POV, I pass. Feels like trading a dollar (Nylander) and a penny (Marincin) for three quarters (50 cents for Zacha, 25 for McLeod). Yes, this was done highly scientifically don't question my loose change model.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Something tells me Whiskey would sell his own kids to get rid of Zacha and McLeod.

If I could get back a player of Nylander's caliber, I would certainly trade those 2. We need elite playmakers in my opinion. That doesn't mean I don't value them, they are great prospects (heck, any C prospect capable of realistically being a 50 point NHLer while providing good 2 way play is rare). Problem is, we already have a few guys like that in Henrique and Zajac. What we lack is an elite offensive center. We have for over 10 years . . . we haven't had a real 1st line center since Scott Gomez, and even he was a mediocre 1C.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Zacha might not even make the NHL. 35 points is more that what you should expect. If you want more than 35 from him your going to be disappointed.

what are you basing this on?

all indications are that he'll be on the NHL team this year. and he just turned 19 a few months ago

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

As a fan of neither team I would say NJ passes rather quickly.
They need offense badly and Zacha could very easily be one of the best in his draft class

Exactly, hence attempting to acquire Nylander.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I am a Devils fan . . . and yes I would trade 2 ~30-55 point players for a 60-70 point player and a 4/5 defenseman.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

If I could get back a player of Nylander's caliber, I would certainly trade those 2. We need elite playmakers in my opinion. That doesn't mean I don't value them, they are great prospects (heck, any C prospect capable of realistically being a 50 point NHLer while providing good 2 way play is rare). Problem is, we already have a few guys like that in Henrique and Zajac. What we lack is an elite offensive center. We have for over 10 years . . . we haven't had a real 1st line center since Scott Gomez, and even he was a mediocre 1C.

I agree that we need a true 1C but we just didn't have the opportunity to draft one this year. I'm guessing they thought Zacha could be a 1C when they drafted him but most seem to think he'll do better at wing. I'm not saying we should stop trying to get a 1C I just don't think trading our two most recent 1st round draft picks is going to happen.

I also really want to see how they develop. Zacha was really excited to be drafted by NJ and it's just not very often that a player is openly happy about playing in NJ. Maybe Zacha does turn out to be a 1C at the NHL level. People seem to think he has the tools.

I've seen it mentioned by someone on here before but McLeod seems to be the future Zajac replacement which is definitely a good thing to have as long as we're not stuck with making him our 1C like we had to/have to do with Zajac.

So in the end, I agree with you that we do still need to work on getting a 1C, I just don't think we should lose Zacha and McLeod to do it. I think they'll both be good players for us in the future.