Player Discussion Zac Jones

[Amazing Kreiderman]

But that IS supposed to be what Nils is best at no? Isn't that what all the hype and constant proclamation that he's "untouchable" is about? That his offensive and PP ceiling is through the roof. As good as Fox is, Fox was never supposed to be this good. So if you doubt Lundqvist could be better than Fox at this, then I ask, what exactly is the need for Lundqvist and what makes him "untouchable"? Not that you specifically said he was "unctouchable", I just mean in general, that seems to be the opinion. And that people are so excited for him to achieve "greatness". Well how could he possibly achieve anything if he's being blocked by Fox? And if Nils does reach his ceiling, it seems as though it would be higher than Fox offensively. Not saying that's going to happen in the next 2 years, but that is the ultimate expectation with Lundqvist and why he's so "valued".

I can't say what Gallant will do. But IF, and this is all speculative, but IF Lundqvist is everything he's supposed to be, I don't see why Gallant wouldn't want to take advantage of that by giving him a whole chunk of PP time. And if he's ultimately relegated forever to PP2, just because we are paying Fox a lot of money, then what is the point of keeping Lunqvist around? IF Lundqvist is what he's supposed to be, I see no reason he couldn't replace Zibby or Fox on the PP1. And again, Fox is SO good at 5x5, SO good on the PK, that he would be better used in those situations when possible. Which he arguably is, so good at those other aspects of the game. Also, if you remember back to the first half of last season, Fox did not look so good on the PP. There were many people that thought he should be moved off the PP. Now a lot of that changed in the second half of the season. But I don't think we can say that Fox will forever be our PP1 RD nor should he necessarily if someone else proves worthy. If he moved down to PP2, and then played more 5x5 and PK, this team would be ultimately better for it in the long run. Vegas got Pietrangelo and did exactly that because they have Theodore. Without Theodore, Pietrangelo would probably still be getting the majority of the PP1 minutes, which he is completely capable of excelling at. Same with Nurse in Edmonton. He doesn't get the lions share of PP time yet he's arguably their best offensive Dman and puts up ridiculous points for a D in 5x5 and even strength. But instead they use Barrie, who's not quite a PP specialist but close to it, as the PP1 guy. Allowing Nurse to get extended minutes in all variety of other situations. Same for Heiskanen in Dalls where Klingberg is the PP1 guy. Tampa Bay splits their PP more evenly, so Sergachev on PP2 and Hedman on PP1 get more equivalent PP minutes. In Boston McAvoy is the PP2 guy while Grzelnyk gets the majority of PP1 minutes. The reason these teams do this is because even if that star Dman is as good or better than their PP1 option, they are also better in all other situations where they are more valuable.

Now I do agree that one of Lundqvist or Jones will be traded. Or even two of Lundqvist, Jones, Robertson or Miller. No clue which it will be, but for the above reasons I do lean towards Lundqvist.

Jones, is a bit different than Lundqvist, aside from being a natural LD. He's supposed to be very good defensively and he's most usually compared directly to Fox. In many ways he's supposed to be the LD version of Fox, and probably the best skater out of any of our Dmen. His skating is supposed to be THAT ridiculously good. In which case, he might end up being the perfect guy to have on PP1 to move the puck up ice. Which I think would pair well on a PP1 with either Fox or Lundqvist. It wouldn't at all be strange to see two defenders on a top PP if they are both so good at various offensive things.

But there is every possibility Lundqvist is ultimately a superior offensive player to Fox, as good as Fox is. Lundqvist IS supposed to be THAT good. That's just the reality of the situation and the entire high value placed on Lundqvist. And if he's NOT better than Fox, that's even more reason to trade him. However good Schneider will be at offense, offense isn't why people are so excited by him. It's his defense and physical play. So even if he ultimately is not better at offense than Lundqvist, which he probably won't be, he's still more likely to eventually take over that 2RD slot. And yea, if Lundqvist also reaches his potential, I can't see him being content with being a 3rd pair D AND a PP2 guy. The only way he would realistically want to stay, and really, the only reason we would have to keep him, is if he was better than Fox on the PP or at least good enough to replace Fox on the PP. Because he'd still likely be the 3RD, not getting a whole lot of minutes without being the primary PP1 RD. Even if that means shifting Zibby off that role. And I am not sure Zibby is even sticking around long term, so I don't think things will ultimately depend on Zibby at least.

For me, Miller is the guy we ultimately will need the least at LD. Having Lindgren, Jones and eventually Robertson. And Lundqvist is the guy who we will probably need the least at RD, having Fox and Trouba now and eventually Schneider. In reality, it's likely we only keep 2 of Lundqvist, Jones, Miller, Robertson and Lindgren. Unless Lindgren is ok with being a 3rd pair guy, in which case maybe he'd eventually take that role. But otherwise, those 5 guys are going to all be competing for 2 LD spots. With Fox obviously staying as our top RD and most likely Schneider moving into 2RD. I guess a chance that Lundqvist ends up 2RD and Schneider gets moved to LD also. But either way, those 5 guys are competing, long term, for 2 spots. Because we really won't be able to keep high value 3rd pair Dmen long term. They will demand more minutes and higher salaries as they progress. And if they ALL progress, that's not going to work keeping them as 3rd pair unless 1 or 2 of them are SO good on the PP they become 3rd pair PP specialists. But I still doubt we would be able to afford to pay for that in the long run.

Jones on the other hand is a natural LD and touted as being the BEST skater out of all our Dmen. His skating is supposed to be something close to mystifying. Which to me, along with his offensive potential, which is huge, would make for the perfect transition weapon on the PP and possibly elsewhere. There's no reason we couldn't roll out a PP1 with Jones AND Fox or Jones AND Lundqvist. Not necessarily this year, I just mean some time in the future. A lot of people love Robertson, and I agree he has the look of a very good player. But I think he's more a Lindgren replacement or a 3rd pair defensive guy ultimately. If we chose to replace Lindgren at some point that is.

Nils' biggest attribute is his defense and transition game, not his offense. His offense is a nice bonus, but not what defines him as a player.

When he was drafted, his offense wasn't the reason, it was his defensive game.

 

[brakeyawself]

Nils' biggest attribute is his defense and transition game, not his offense. His offense is a nice bonus, but not what defines him as a player.

When he was drafted, his offense wasn't the reason, it was his defensive game.

Are we talking about the same Lundqvist? Every single scouting report I've ever seen talks MAINLY about his puck moving, his distribution, transition game, his skill with his puck on his stick and his passing.

I've never heard he was a bad defender, but defense absolutely was NOT the focus. Do you have any citation or example? Because I would really really like to see it. That's the opposite of everything I've ever read about him.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Are we talking about the same Lundqvist? Every single scouting report I've ever seen talks MAINLY about his puck moving, his distribution, transition game, his skill with his puck on his stick and his passing.

I've never heard he was a bad defender, but defense absolutely was NOT the focus. Do you have any citation or example? Because I would really really like to see it. That's the opposite of everything I've ever read about him.

I don't know. Maybe the 25 times I watched him play in person, or interviewed him and asked, or spoke to his teammates about his strengths and weaknesses?

 

[brakeyawself]

Nils' biggest attribute is his defense and transition game, not his offense. His offense is a nice bonus, but not what defines him as a player.

When he was drafted, his offense wasn't the reason, it was his defensive game.

Here this one is from 2018

Nils Lundkvist Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #40 - Last Word On Hockey

Another

Nils Lundkvist Stats, Profile, Bio, Analysis and More | New York Rangers | The Sports Forecaster

 

[brakeyawself]

I don't know. Maybe the 25 times I watched him play in person, or interviewed him and asked, or spoke to his teammates about his strengths and weaknesses?

So no citations? Just your personal experience? Ok got it.

I'm not knocking your personal judgement. It's just that what you are saying directly contradicts everything I have ever read about him. Which is......keeping me skeptical that it's not just your opinion rather than something of a majority opinion.

Practically everyone and everywhere else raves about his puck skills and offensive potential. I never said he's bad defensively. Just that's not what he's KNOWN for. And unless you can provide overwhelming evidence to the contrary, beyond your personal opinion, I'm not sure that changes.

Even if I respect your opinion, which I do.

And it's not even a matter of cherry picking sources. It's literally every piece I've ever read on him, which at this point adds up to many, many. And most seem to talk about his defense in terms of "he needs to bulk up" or "his raw talent' but always seems to conclude with his point production, his dynamic offensive and transitional potential.

 

[brakeyawself]

I don't know. Maybe the 25 times I watched him play in person, or interviewed him and asked, or spoke to his teammates about his strengths and weaknesses?

2018 NHL Draft prospect profile: Nils Lundkvist, quiet but solid

Here's another from 2018. Again, accentuating his offense more than his defense. Suggesting he has the ability to be a good defender but still needs work in various areas.

Again, not suggesting his defense is bad. Just that he's been touted as an offensive Dman from the start, with varying opinions on that ceiling. But NOT as a defensive Dman. He got a lot of minutes in the SHL, so I have no doubt he has defensive capability. I can't really go off highlight reels or anything, it's not like they show a wide range of fails and successes. And you have seen him play which counts for something. All though I am curious when you saw him play those 25 times..... at what age and at what stage in his development? Which stage did you speak to teammates etc.... All though, should we expect teammates and coaches to say he's not good? I really have no clue what your relationship is with those people or if they are likely to be completely honest with you etc..

It probably makes a difference if you saw him at U18 vs against adults or whatever. And he probably can be a terrific two way player. But will he surpass Fox or Schneider in the defensive department? I guess that is the ultimate question. Meanwhile his offense and PP seems to have improved leaps and bounds even since he was drafted, where he's now spoken about as a high ceiling offensive Dman.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. All though, I am asking you why I should change mine and why the opinion you suggest is not commonly found in scouting reports?

Like this write up which contradicts what you've claimed directly Top 10 prospects for the NY Rangers: No. 3 Nils Lundkvist

 

[jay from jersey]

2018 NHL Draft prospect profile: Nils Lundkvist, quiet but solid

Here's another from 2018. Again, accentuating his offense more than his defense. Suggesting he has the ability to be a good defender but still needs work in various areas.

Again, not suggesting his defense is bad. Just that he's been touted as an offensive Dman from the start, with varying opinions on that ceiling. But NOT as a defensive Dman. He got a lot of minutes in the SHL, so I have no doubt he has defensive capability. I can't really go off highlight reels or anything, it's not like they show a wide range of fails and successes. And you have seen him play which counts for something. All though I am curious when you saw him play those 25 times..... at what age and at what stage in his development? Which stage did you speak to teammates etc.... All though, should we expect teammates and coaches to say he's not good? I really have no clue what your relationship is with those people or if they are likely to be completely honest with you etc..

It probably makes a difference if you saw him at U18 vs against adults or whatever. And he probably can be a terrific two way player. But will he surpass Fox or Schneider in the defensive department? I guess that is the ultimate question. Meanwhile his offense and PP seems to have improved leaps and bounds even since he was drafted, where he's now spoken about as a high ceiling offensive Dman.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. All though, I am asking you why I should change mine and why the opinion you suggest is not commonly found in scouting reports?

Like this write up which contradicts what you've claimed directly Top 10 prospects for the NY Rangers: No. 3 Nils Lundkvist

Kreider man is right here. That’s why Nils went late in the first rd. There was questions about his offensive game and if it would ever develop to the point of the guys picked over him higher in the first rd. Over the next 2 seasons, his offense really came on. It’s true he did QB the PP, and his passing and vision where very good, but his Shot and offensive production came later.
I don’t see nils being able to do anything better then fox does except for his hard heavy accurate shot. That’s why I see him as more of a trigger man option rather then a PP QB.
ADA also had a better shot then Fox and was a proven beast on the NHL as a PP QB the year prior, and Fox was so good, he still came away with the job.
I just doubt Lundkvist has the skillset, or will even get the opportunity to run the point on PP 1 for any extended period of time. Maybe if Fox takes a penalty or something. But odds are if nils makes it on the 1PP, it will be fox setting him up for one timers, not replacing him as the QB

 

[brakeyawself]

Kreider man is right here. That’s why Nils went late in the first rd. There was questions about his offensive game and if it would ever develop to the point of the guys picked over him higher in the first rd. Over the next 2 seasons, his offense really came on. It’s true he did QB the PP, and his passing and vision where very good, but his Shot and offensive production came later.
I don’t see nils being able to do anything better then fox does except for his hard heavy accurate shot. That’s why I see him as more of a trigger man option rather then a PP QB.
ADA also had a better shot then Fox and was a proven beast on the NHL as a PP QB the year prior, and Fox was so good, he still came away with the job.
I just doubt Lundkvist has the skillset, or will even get the opportunity to run the point on PP 1 for any extended period of time. Maybe if Fox takes a penalty or something. But odds are if nils makes it on the 1PP, it will be fox setting him up for one timers, not replacing him as the QB

I am not saying you or him are necessarily wrong. I just can not find ANY evidence what so ever that what he stated and now what you are stating about Nils, was or is true. I have now looked through 30 or so varying write ups, going all the way back to his draft year up to now and every single one of them that I have read, a few of which I posted, states that he is an offensive Dman who needs to work on certain aspects of his defensive game. They all seem to state that he's above average skater, great in transition and with the puck on his stick. The earlier write ups seem to conclude that his offensive ceiling was up in the air, or not as defined as other offensive Dmen. But that he was, none the less seen as an offensive Dman.

It would really be nice if you or he could provide any proof of this beyond "Kreiderman says...". Because it legitimately runs contrary to every single thing I have read. And many of those write ups suggest he is good in his transitional defense, but needs bulking up and work on his deep zone defensive game. While they write glowingly about his offensive transitional game and his ability to to find openings. So I am not saying you or he are wrong, I am just saying there is little to no evidence on the internet, supporting those claims. Which is very weird on the internet, which doesn't easily "lose" material....... I'm even asking for like 1 or 2 write ups that suggest he's more of a defensive Dman, than an offensive Dman. And so far all I have gotten is either silence or "Kreiderman says".

And it's nothing against Kreiderman either. Like I said. I am not trying to change his opinion. I am only asking that he support it with actual evidence beyond his personal experience and opinion since it seems to run contrary to every write up going all the way back to his draft year.

In fact, the MOST glowing compliment about his defense I have seen, was from his draft year, some Caps fan write up about how he's a "reliable" defenseman. That's not exactly the same as stating he's known for his defense.

And like this one, touts that he is much more comfortable as a playmaker than a shooter....

Nils Lundkvist Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #40 - Last Word On Hockey

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What I share about Nils Lundkvist isn't just my opinion. It's based on feedback from him, his teammmates, people in the Luleå and Rangers organisation.

 

[jay from jersey]

Delete

 

[jay from jersey]

I am not saying you or him are necessarily wrong. I just can not find ANY evidence what so ever that what he stated and now what you are stating about Nils, was or is true. I have now looked through 30 or so varying write ups, going all the way back to his draft year up to now and every single one of them that I have read, a few of which I posted, states that he is an offensive Dman who needs to work on certain aspects of his defensive game. They all seem to state that he's above average skater, great in transition and with the puck on his stick. The earlier write ups seem to conclude that his offensive ceiling was up in the air, or not as defined as other offensive Dmen. But that he was, none the less seen as an offensive Dman.

It would really be nice if you or he could provide any proof of this beyond "Kreiderman says...". Because it legitimately runs contrary to every single thing I have read. And many of those write ups suggest he is good in his transitional defense, but needs bulking up and work on his deep zone defensive game. While they write glowingly about his offensive transitional game and his ability to to find openings. So I am not saying you or he are wrong, I am just saying there is little to no evidence on the internet, supporting those claims. Which is very weird on the internet, which doesn't easily "lose" material....... I'm even asking for like 1 or 2 write ups that suggest he's more of a defensive Dman, than an offensive Dman. And so far all I have gotten is either silence or "Kreiderman says".

And it's nothing against Kreiderman either. Like I said. I am not trying to change his opinion. I am only asking that he support it with actual evidence beyond his personal experience and opinion since it seems to run contrary to every write up going all the way back to his draft year.

In fact, the MOST glowing compliment about his defense I have seen, was from his draft year, some Caps fan write up about how he's a "reliable" defenseman. That's not exactly the same as stating he's known for his defense.

And like this one, touts that he is much more comfortable as a playmaker than a shooter....

Nils Lundkvist Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #40 - Last Word On Hockey

I just remember what was said about him the time of his draft year. And why he was taken at the end of the first rd. He’s was always billed as a guy who can move the puck, that was responsible in his own end.
He really wasn’t billed as an offensive powerhouse D that was going to come in and run the PP. I’m happy his offense has reached a new gear. But I highly doubt the offensive package is going to be Adam fox level.
I bring up kreider man because he’s done Yeoman's work as far as reporting on nils. If you want you can go back and look through the threads and read first hand about his games in Sweden.
He’s spoken with him, and seen him live multiple times. Same with kravtsov I believe.

so though as he was billed as a solid transition D man that possesses offense, the high end offensive wasn’t predicted. Lindgren is a solid transition D and moves the puck well. Lundkvist looks to have taken the next step and has a way better shot, but comparing to fox or fox’s style at this point is premature when talking about taking over PP point duties.
no one is saying he was just billed as a defensive D-man. He was first notice for his calm/poise and decision making with the puck as a kid amongst men. Every scouting report said he played a strong 2-way game and handled the puck more like a veteran then a kid.
When his offensive game took a step up to the next level, that’s when scouts/coaches/fans started to take notice of the talented his posses and that maybe a lot of people were wrong about His offensive skills/ ceiling. He’s done a great job since then, and has gotten better at both sides of the puck. That’s why he’s so highly touted now compared to years ago when a lot thought he would just be a solid 2-way player with very good decision making and a limited offensive ceiling.

 

[egelband]

Why wouldn't you want Nils running the top pp? He has the shot for sure (Fox's only weakness is that his shot is just ok) and if you watch tape it appears Nils can pass similarly to Fox. Fox is easily the all around best dman on the team so wouldn't you want him playing more minutes at 5 on 5 and the PK? If Nils can play top pp then that frees Fox to do just that. Of course this won't happen right away, but I don't see it taking too long. This might also help save some $$ on Fox's contract as his point totals should not be as gaudy. Kid will be a stud. Don't understand at all why anyone would want to trade him while he is just getting started and just signed his 3 year ELC. Unless you get an amazing return that would be incredibly foolish. Having 3 strong dmen on the right side is a problem?

PP mins tend to be pretty easy and I think considered kind of a reward for the better players. I don’t think they’d be resting Fox on the pp.

That said, you’re absolutely right that we shouldn’t move Nils unless it’s a pure “hockey” trade.

 

[eco's bones]

Nils made the Lulea SHL team in his draft year because he showed a pretty good degree of defensive reliability. 5 points in 28 games was pretty good for a kid but he certainly wasn’t driving the offense. He had 10 points in 41 in his D+1 year. The offense didn’t break out until his D+2 and more or less was the same in his D+3. His defensive game was what got him into the league and the offensive part developed off of that. Part of what has fueled the offense is his shot has gotten better. He has an excellent one timer that he gets off quickly with a good amount of velocity and degree of accuracy. Fox does not have that kind of shot but his ability to QB a power play is elite for the best league in hockey.

 

[AKA Chief]

Here this one is from 2018

Nils Lundkvist Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #40 - Last Word On Hockey

Read the report and don't understand this sentence regarding his skating and it does not make sense to me:
"Moving backwards is not quite as good, but still well above average." How can it be "not quite good" but still "above average."

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I remember question as to his offensive game until D+1... he was regarded like John Moore. only smaller--main concern.

 

[brakeyawself]

Read the report and don't understand this sentence regarding his skating and it does not make sense to me:
"Moving backwards is not quite as good, but still well above average." How can it be "not quite good" but still "above average."

lol thats a good point. NHL scouting is a very imperfect "science". It's really more like a crapshoot sometimes. The success/failure rate for the NHL draft has been called "systemically low". So teams, GM's and scouts get it wrong way, way more than they get it right. And it's expected. That's part of why it's such a big deal when teams reach in the 1st round. Because the 1st round is the only round you can even come close to an actual measure of "predictive success". And even then it's tiny compared to other sports, other than MLB which has the lowest, by far, in a bottom class of its own really. But reaching in the 1st round of the NHL draft, significantly lowers the chance of success of that pick. Statistically, not on an individual basis of course. Which is why people complain about it so much. I would be very curious to see an analysis of CSS picks vs Team picks. Like if you just drafted off the CSS docket for 10 seasons, in order, would your chance of success be lower/higher/equal to going off-board. Not sure if that exists.

Frankly, I think scouts, GM's, people in general, pundits, fans whatever, regularly don't know exactly what they are talking about. One scout might see an above average skater, another might see a flaw. It's a pretty messy enterprise. Which is why I don't think there is a HUGE scouting disparity. The best scouts only get it right slightly more often than the average ones.

 

[GAGLine]

Read the report and don't understand this sentence regarding his skating and it does not make sense to me:
"Moving backwards is not quite as good, but still well above average." How can it be "not quite good" but still "above average."

Not quite AS good, as his skating forward. His defensive skating isn't as good as his forward skating, but it still above average.

 

[aufheben]

Is that the plan now? Fox is becoming too good so we should try to keep his production down?

 

[KOVALEV022473]

Kid played lights out tonight.

 

[Crease]

Really great to see him do well. This organization will be in a good spot if he pans out.

 

[LoveGoons]

2018 NHL Draft prospect profile: Nils Lundkvist, quiet but solid

Here's another from 2018. Again, accentuating his offense more than his defense. Suggesting he has the ability to be a good defender but still needs work in various areas.

Again, not suggesting his defense is bad. Just that he's been touted as an offensive Dman from the start, with varying opinions on that ceiling. But NOT as a defensive Dman. He got a lot of minutes in the SHL, so I have no doubt he has defensive capability. I can't really go off highlight reels or anything, it's not like they show a wide range of fails and successes. And you have seen him play which counts for something. All though I am curious when you saw him play those 25 times..... at what age and at what stage in his development? Which stage did you speak to teammates etc.... All though, should we expect teammates and coaches to say he's not good? I really have no clue what your relationship is with those people or if they are likely to be completely honest with you etc..

It probably makes a difference if you saw him at U18 vs against adults or whatever. And he probably can be a terrific two way player. But will he surpass Fox or Schneider in the defensive department? I guess that is the ultimate question. Meanwhile his offense and PP seems to have improved leaps and bounds even since he was drafted, where he's now spoken about as a high ceiling offensive Dman.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. All though, I am asking you why I should change mine and why the opinion you suggest is not commonly found in scouting reports?

Like this write up which contradicts what you've claimed directly Top 10 prospects for the NY Rangers: No. 3 Nils Lundkvist

Jones and Lundkist should play 15 games in the AHL. Even Miller with his give always especially that bone head at the end of the should get himself 5 games in the AHL.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Jones and Lundkist should play 15 games in the AHL. Even Miller with his give always especially that bone head at the end of the should get himself 5 games in the AHL.

If Jones plays the rest of the pre-season like he did tonight, he will not be playing any games in the AHL.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I felt Jones played fantastic last night.

He just looks the part for me. He’s got like a Don Mattingly on skates type of presence.

 

[Charlie Conway]

He played well tonight. It's a great problem to have. Is it just me or does he still have some of the forward-like instincts and moves? It looked like it when he went to deke out a guy at the blue line.

 

[AirGut]

It's not like he's quite a Quinn Hughes, but he's got that stocky short build and can skate so well in incredibly tight situations, coupled with his slick hands. Man are we blessed with so many talented D


Sad some of them will prob be gone via trade in the next year or so