Player Discussion Zac Jones

[eco's bones]

To add on Nemeth the Rangers identified him as a player they wanted days before free agency opened and then gave him a 3 year deal at $2.5 mil per annum. Whether this or that poster here likes him or not they didn’t sign him with the idea he’ll be playing in Hartford and they obviously signed him for qualities other than point production. On a pure skills level Jones is certainly a better player but skills aren’t entirely what signing Nemeth was about.

 

[brakeyawself]

To add on Nemeth the Rangers identified him as a player they wanted days before free agency opened and then gave him a 3 year deal at $2.5 mil per annum. Whether this or that poster here likes him or not they didn’t sign him with the idea he’ll be playing in Hartford and they obviously signed him for qualities other than point production. On a pure skills level Jones is certainly a better player but skills aren’t entirely what signing Nemeth was about.

Nemeth is also the type of player that could easily be jumped and pushed into a depth role if one of the young Dmen DO prove ready for the job and I think that's what is most important.

Avs and Wings fans both have nothing nice to say about Nemeth and his time at those clubs. He's a fringe 3rd pair Dman. Fit's there until someone else takes over his job. And that's literally all we need out of that extra LD right now. If Jones doesn't, Robertson could, or Lundqvist or Schneider might end up being so good one of them needs to switch sides temporarily.

But my money is on Jones. I think he has a chance to be better than Miller even. While Miller has the size, he doesn't have Jones' offensive potential and Jones not bad at defense. If Jones puts in a great showing in preseason, I think he has every chance to earn time. I am not sure how Gallant would do things, maybe he has some ideas of his own about different pairings. Lol. Well, I am sure he does have some ideas of his own. More than I can say for Quinn. He just had every players name on a piece of paper and picked them out of a hat I think. But maybe he'd rotate to start until someone proved more consistent. And even if Nemeth starts the season in the 3rd pair, Jones and Robertson will likely be proving themselves in the AHL. And if one is performing at a high level and Nemeth looks subpar, he can make the change at any point during the season without having to worry about Nemeth too much.

But I really like Jones' chances. Especially if we aren't trading any of our young Dmen before the season.

 

[brakeyawself]

Even if Jones proves he's better than Nemeth right now (which he is), Nemeth will still get the nod.

Only at the start. If Jones is taring up the AHL I doubt Nemeth's reign would last too long. Same really goes for Robertson , Schneider and Lundqvist depending on who's with us after preseason. There's a chance all of them could start in the AHL. All though, I suspect Lundqvist will make the team from the start. But he could be jumped by Schneider if Schneider performs better and proves he's ready. In which case i assume Lundqvist would be in the AHL and Schneider with the team. Pretty much anything could happen at this point.

But I do think there's a good chance, Nemeth could be replaced by any of these guys by December/January. THAT is the beauty of Nemeth. Perfect, nondescript placeholder.

With terrible reviews from the fans of everywhere he has played. I think that's important to note. I am yet to find a fan that liked him when he was with their team lol. I am not sure what that actually says about him. But I don't think it's good.

 

[brakeyawself]

You have to qualify what better means. Fox is going to get the lion’s share of power play time and he’s earned that. That will put a limit on the effectiveness of both Lundkvist’s and Jones’ offensive games which really speaks to their strengths as individual hockey players. They both are going to need to be able to play really good D if we’re going to justify either of them making the team.

If Jones and/or Lundqvist prove equal to or better than Fox on the PP, or even close to Fox, why wouldn't Gallant use them more on the PP and give Fox more time to rest or play at 5x5 and even strength or PK? Fox can play in all those situations. So it seems like it would benefit the team more if Fox was eventually replaced on the PP. I am not sure there is any other point to Lundqvist being on this team. Jones at least could get a LD position and he could even play with Fox on the PP. Lundqvist though, unless he did switch sides I guess, wouldn't be able to use his supposed best ability.

If Lundqvist proved he was ready, after a couple of months, I don't see why Gallant wouldn't move him to PP1, getting most of that time and 3rd pair otherwise, with Fox getting more minutes in other parts of the game. This is also what makes me think Lundqvist doesn't really have a long term future with the Rangers unless he basically becomes the full time PP specialist. With Fox, Trouba and eventually Schneider, it doesn't leave a whole lot for Lundqvist to do otherwise. And it's what would benefit the entire team most.

 

[aufheben]

Yeah, Zac Jones is gonna steal Adam Fox’s PP spot.

Like come on.

 

[chosen]

They both are going to need to be able to play really good D if we’re going to justify either of them making the team.

The same can be said for Miller.

 

[chosen]

You have to qualify what better means. Fox is going to get the lion’s share of power play time and he’s earned that. That will put a limit on the effectiveness of both Lundkvist’s and Jones’ offensive games which really speaks to their strengths as individual hockey players. They both are going to need to be able to play really good D if we’re going to justify either of them making the team.

Not sure what you mean.

He's just a better hockey player. Some players are better than other players.

In cases where neither player offers much of worth, then you can dig into minutiae.

Jones already offers some pretty impressive positives. Not really sure what Nemeth offers, but to be fair I haven't watched that much of him.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I think Fox is about to put up 70 pts.

 

[LyNX27]

Reading some of these posts... wowza, season can't come soon enough so we can see how they match up in NHL games instead of in our minds.

 

[OrlandK]

Nemeth is also the type of player that could easily be jumped and pushed into a depth role if one of the young Dmen DO prove ready for the job and I think that's what is most important.

Avs and Wings fans both have nothing nice to say about Nemeth and his time at those clubs. He's a fringe 3rd pair Dman. Fit's there until someone else takes over his job. And that's literally all we need out of that extra LD right now. If Jones doesn't, Robertson could, or Lundqvist or Schneider might end up being so good one of them needs to switch sides temporarily.

While a perfectly fine guy and all that I think the Avs fans found Nemeth's play mediocre at best. I don't see the commitment to Nemeth worthwhile. While Smith certainly is not his equal I think the Rangers could have signed Brendan for 1 year and 1 million or less and not signed Nemeth and Tinordi. The cap savings could have been used to improve the center position. I understand and agree that Nemeth will be a better match for the Nils pairing but all in given Jones, Robertson and Schneider in the wings I didn't like the 3 year commitment. And I'm not convinced they will be able to move Nemeth's contract without a sweetener if and when necessary.

 

[NYR Viper]

Nemeth, even at $2.5m as a #7 d-man is the type of luxury many teams wouldn't mind and for a Rangers team with so many young d-men over the next few years, having a veteran who can step in and play in case of injury or poor play isn't a bad investment. That assumes he is beaten out and can't be traded

 

[OrlandK]

Nemeth, even at $2.5m as a #7 d-man is the type of luxury many teams wouldn't mind and for a Rangers team with so many young d-men over the next few years, having a veteran who can step in and play in case of injury or poor play isn't a bad investment. That assumes he is beaten out and can't be traded

It's not the 2.5 million this year that is the concern. That is a luxury that makes sense for the Rangers. It's the 3 year commitment that I question. It just doesn't make sense to give 6/7 declining asset dman past his prime 3 year contracts in general and with the Rangers in particular given the prospect pool.

 

[NYR Viper]

It's not the 2.5 million this year that is the concern. That is a luxury that makes sense for the Rangers. It's the 3 year commitment that I question. It just doesn't make sense to give 6/7 declining asset dman past his prime 3 year contracts in general and with the Rangers in particular given the prospect pool.

You keep saying declining asset. He's 29 years old. He's not 35. Pretty soon we are going to be asking for 4 year olds for fear that 7 year olds will be a declining asset

 

[eco's bones]

Not sure what you mean.

He's just a better hockey player. Some players are better than other players.

In cases where neither player offers much of worth, then you can dig into minutiae.

Jones already offers some pretty impressive positives. Not really sure what Nemeth offers, but to be fair I haven't watched that much of him.

Look we’re not putting together a video game team here either. The Rangers targeted Nemeth (and that story broke a few days before free agency) for a reason. Jones is a more skilled player than Nemeth sure. So what? Nemeth has a track record and size. Jones doesn’t have either of those things. Fox runs the power play. Norris Trophy winner at 23–you play that guy as much as you can. If there’s a second smaller D it’s most likely Lundkvist but he’s getting the power play leftovers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You keep saying declining asset. He's 29 years old. He's not 35. Pretty soon we are going to be asking for 4 year olds for fear that 7 year olds will be a declining asset

We simply cannot afford to sign Laf and Kakko to 8 year extensions. It takes them to 29, which is basically 30, which is the new 40. They will be happy if they get 2-3 good years out of em!

 

[OrlandK]

I fully understand, especially an old guy like me, how ridiculous it seems that someone at 30 is already in decline but every analysis of the issue indicates that it is the case. It used to be assumed that 28 to 32 were the peak years but analytics indicates it is more like 25 - 28. Look at Nemeth's career stats in particular since that is the issue at hand - his best years were clearly the 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 seasons.

As the saying goes: "“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”.

 

[SA16]

I fully understand, especially an old guy like me, how ridiculous it seems that someone at 30 is already in decline but every analysis of the issue indicates that it is the case. It used to be assumed that 28 to 32 were the peak years but analytics indicates it is more like 25 - 28. Look at Nemeth's career stats in particular since that is the issue at hand - his best years were clearly the 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 seasons.

As the saying goes: "“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”.

What you're not understanding is if you don't give a player like this the years in FA then you will simply never sign any free agents other than the bargain bin 1 year deals in August for players that nobody else wants. Nemeth is a good player, a good defensive defenseman, and this is not an expensive cap hit nor a lot of years. There is almost no risk to this contract. He will easily be tradeable because depth dmen always have value and in the absolute worst case scenario where he's a total disaster and nobody wants him (a highly unlikely scenario) he can always be sent to the AHL to clear 1M.

 

[OrlandK]

I absolutely do understand that. Where we differ is that I don't think Nemeth is a good player so adding the out years as a penalty of sorts, like you have to do to sign a good FA (i.e. Goodrow), doesn't apply. I also do not agree that he will be easily tradable; I think he will likely be untradable without adding a draft pick.

 

[SA16]

I absolutely do understand that. Where we differ is that I don't think Nemeth is a good player so adding the out years as a penalty of sorts, like you have to do to sign a good FA (i.e. Goodrow), doesn't apply. I also do not agree that he will be easily tradable; I think he will likely be untradable without adding a draft pick.

Exactly what is your expertise on Patrik Nemeth other than a couple of Avs fans saying he had a bad playoffs and watching a few playoff games?

He will be extremely easily tradeable with one year left at 2.5M. Worse defenseman were just traded at this deadline. Jordie Benn for a 6. Gudbranson for a 7. Hutton for a 5. Gustafsson for a 7. He just got traded for a 4 himself. Coburn for a 7.

 

[OrlandK]

SA16, I'm clearly not the expert that you are. I base my impression on what Red Wings fans have said, his statistics and the trend line you choose to ignore.

 

[SA16]

SA16, I'm clearly not the expert that you are. I base my impression on what Red Wings fans have said, his statistics and the trend line you choose to ignore.

I'm not seeing this so called negative trend line. I'm seeing a solid defensive defenseman who has remained that way for 3 years. He's far enough above average defensively that even if he falls off in Y2 or Y3 he will likely still be average at worst. I don't know what you mean by "his statistics" because his statistics are good.

 

[OrlandK]

I believe 2017-2018 was Nemeth's best season.
Check out the Red Wings board and search his name to get a feel for how that fan base viewed him.

 

[ElLeetch]

You keep saying declining asset. He's 29 years old. He's not 35. Pretty soon we are going to be asking for 4 year olds for fear that 7 year olds will be a declining asset

Some of the posters on this board would have been fun to post with when the UFA age in the NHL used to be 31. People used to be excited to sign someone who was "only" 31.

 

[chosen]

The Rangers targeted Nemeth (and that story broke a few days before free agency) for a reason.

Because he's Swedish, to help Lundqvist acclimate.

 

[brakeyawself]

While a perfectly fine guy and all that I think the Avs fans found Nemeth's play mediocre at best. I don't see the commitment to Nemeth worthwhile. While Smith certainly is not his equal I think the Rangers could have signed Brendan for 1 year and 1 million or less and not signed Nemeth and Tinordi. The cap savings could have been used to improve the center position. I understand and agree that Nemeth will be a better match for the Nils pairing but all in given Jones, Robertson and Schneider in the wings I didn't like the 3 year commitment. And I'm not convinced they will be able to move Nemeth's contract without a sweetener if and when necessary.

100% I would have preferred Smith staying as well.

And we don't even really know yet if Nils will be ready, so if they did make the addition with that in mind, I think it was a bit premature perhaps. I really think what would help this team the most, on defense is if Trouba could reinvent himself as more of a defensive and physical force, someone who could pair with Jones or Miller and provide the solid defensive and veteran presence they need.
That would move the needle way more than Trouba still trying to be as offensive when we are loaded with young offensive D talent. With his size and athleticism, I don't see why he couldn't do that.

And then Miller and Jones could duke it out for now to see who should pair with him. Meanwhile, Nemeth theoretically would fit with Lundqvist, provided he's ready and it would be a more balanced Defense. Really need Miller to use his size and athleticism to be more physical. He uses his length well, with his stick, but he relies on it way more than he should.

I still think this could be our D by the midway point of the season---

Lindgren - Fox
Jones - Trouba
Miller - Lundqvist

Or maybe swap the 2nd and 3rd pairs, either way. But it would require Trouba to play off Jones or Miller. Or would require Miller using his size and defensive ability to play off Lundqvist. But if either or both of Miller and Trouba focused a bit more on using their size and athleticism to play a more defensive game, it could really open things up for our highly skilled young D men and I think improve our overall play. I've seen people suggest Trouba can't do that for whatever reason, but I disagree. And seen similar suggestions about Miller. But I don't buy those arguments. They can still use their offensive ability, it just wouldn't be the main focus of their role on the ice. Both guys have the necessary attributes to pull it off. At that point it just becomes a matter of willingness, focus and hard work. And if Miller really did improve in this sense, in physicality and defense, there's no reason he couldn't move ahead of Lindgren to pair with Fox, which might actually be the long term ideal. So for now, something like:

Miller - Fox
Lindgren - Lundqvist
Jones - Trouba

Or again, can swap 2nd and 3rd pairs. Could even just play 2nd and 3rd pairs a bit more even in minutes, while first pair gets the lions share. Obviously this all would be dependent upon Jones and Lundqvist proving themselves ready and Miller and Trouba make those slight alterations to their game. But if Schneider ends up being everything we think he can be, he'd be a perfect partner for Jones. And would make it difficult for Lundqvist to get the minutes he will probably eventually require.

I still would be happy with moving Lundqvist for a young center. I keep thinking Turcotte, Vilardi or Kupari just because of how stacked Kings are down the middle. Or Perfetti or PLD because of how deep the Jets are with Scheifle, PLD and now Perfetti and Lucius in the franchise. All though, if Lucius ends up on the wing, I guess they'd want to keep Perfetti. No way to know if PLD will stay there long term. I do wonder what it would take with Lundqvist to get PLD. Maybe a 1st ? But whatever, just daydreaming.