Value of: Yzerplan put 18.1 million to Holl, Gostisbehere, Reimer, Compher, Sprong and Kostin

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jfrank21

Registered User
Oct 1, 2009
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YOu think he paid Holl 3.4 x 3 to be 6th in icetime? I doubt it.
Well, it will be either him or Ghost as the 3rd pairing D. And they paid Ghost more money....Everyone clowning on Holl when he was literally signed to replace Jordan Oesterle and Robert Hagg....not exactly a high hurdle to clear. Just because Toronto was too cap strapped to have him down the line up doesnt mean he cant be a serviceable #5 or #6 dman.
 

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
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Unless you get a generational type player, crosby, mcdavid, hedman, ovie, bedard, MacKinnon, with a 1st OA pick then it takes significantly longer.

Dallas, Boston and Vegas (weird example) are examples of good clubs w/o top 3 picks let alone multiple top 3 picks, who have managed to be successful and drafting later.

That's it... 2(3) teams

The good teams
Tampa
Toronto
Colorado
Pittsburgh
Washington
Florida
Edmonton
LA
Carolina
NYR

Have all had top 3 picks and sometimes multiple.

NJ
Buffalo

Are up and coming teams who've also benefited from multiple 1st or 2nd OAs, w/o which would stil be irrelevant.

10 years is about right when you arent gifted McDavid or Crosby or MacKinnon and even then it still takes 5 years or more
And still the club needs to draft the right guys.
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,888
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London
Yzerman lacking creativity to make good trades. Instead he's resorted to the tell tale sign that a GM is worried about his job by filling roster spots with overpaid free agents.
Yzerman has had the better end of almost every trade he's made with the wings. Problem is he took over with the cupboard bare of assets bar the ones you don't want to part with.

Great! So, take on cap dumps from other teams, along with the picks/prospects that come with them

That way they're able to fill out the roster, while increasing the number of assets gathered

Cap space is an asset, and Yzerman is giving that asset away on mediocrity without receiving anything in return
1) half of the FAs he's signed over the last two years are deadline trades for picks waiting to happen, so there is still some return.
2) GMs seem to have wised up about getting into panic situations where they are throwing away 1st round picks to sort out cap issues
3) The wings still have 10m+ in cap space, with another 16m+ coming off the cap hit next summer (more than enough to resign RFAs), and thats before the cap goes up.
4) None of the wings best prospects are ready yet bar the ones already in the team, so protecting them by signing players who are able to fulfil different positional and functional roles is pretty sensible.

There is a bit of overpayment or too much term on a couple of the deals, but for the most part the last two UFA crops will likely generate some 2nd & 3rd round picks while having no long-term cap impacts of note

He treated Vrana like crap and had a few bad gambles, but he has to ice a roster that isn't 18 and 19 year old kids.
Detroit fans, what are your expectations for Elmer Soderblom this season?
Stay healthy, get high scoring minutes in the AHL and get NHL games as injury call up or after inevitable deadline sales.

He’s a pretty average GM imo. Not the worst out there but also not the best. People saying these bad signings don’t matter because the Wings have lots of cap space sound a lot like fans of other rebuilding teams that found out that bad contracts really do have a big impact.
Difference is these aren't terrible contracts. The longer ones are slight overpayments in $ or term for guys who will likely still be useful in some role for the duration of their contracts, and the riskier ones are short enough not to be millstones.

The key thing is no more Frans Nielsen wrong side of age curve for middle ranking player deals, and none of the 'lets give a 31 year old with some injury history an 8 year deal' that certain other GMs seem to like.

None of these signings are particularly exciting or move the needle significantly, but none are going to be problematic unless the wings draft picks develop faster and better than projected.

Definitely getting a desperation vibe from these moves. You dont bring in 5 or 6 new guys if you feel like youre pretty close. Thought it was telling at the draft when the woman point blank asked Yzerman when the Wings were gonna make the playoffs and he couldn't even give a boilerplate semiconfident reply.
Curious to hear Wings fans thoughts on how much longer he will be allowed to flail before ownership makes a change?
He's got plenty more rope. Kenny's last few years were a disaster that not only left a terrible team, but bad contracts and some prospects that were massively overpaid for in draft capital. They basically had a decent-ish first line (though Mantha has seriously gone off the boil and Bertuzzi couldn't stay fit) and nothing else.

He's not on any hotseat because although dull and frustrating, he hasn't made any really bad moves, has regenerated the prospect pool despite getting lottery shafted most years, and we still have an excess of picks next year. Its slow going, but the direction of travel is good.

And frankly, at this stage the division is a nightmare because the powerhouse teams haven't dropped off and the other rebuilders have been at it for longer with a lot more help from lotteries etc

Ultimately, like most GMs it will be the success or failure of his drafting that defines things.
 

theVladiator

Registered User
May 26, 2018
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Nicely put. On the other hand, I think you are wasting your breath. Most of the concerns expressed here clearly aren't genuine. Just fans of other teams who aren't sure in their team's management seeking some company for their own misery.

Yzerman is doing just fine, I see a better team and a better prospect stable every year.
 
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zman77

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Oct 1, 2015
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Sam Heughan Reaction GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 

Panda Bear

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Apr 2, 2010
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Gamebreakers aren't available through trades or FA though, and does Detroit actually need any other players? Overpaying for just a good top6 forward or top4 defenseman won't make the team a contender...
We see good players get traded for peanuts due to cap reasons every single season.

Reilly Smith, who posted 14 points in 22 playoff games for Vegas, was traded for a third.
 

mriswith

Registered User
Oct 12, 2011
4,411
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The arguments against Yzerman are painful to even read.

What I've gleaned from this thread is that no one has a clue what Detroit looked like when he took over, no one can remember what year he took over, no one can remember better players taken in the first after Detroits picks except Sanderson, and despite that he should have been competing earlier with UFA's and trades while simultaneously winning draft lotteries.

This is like expecting Grier to making SJS a contender in 3 years except if he had gotten pushed down one more slot in this years draft and never picks top 5 again. Just a ludicrous thread.

I did learn that a lot of people want Yzerman to fail simply for being a GM that hasn't had a lobotomy when it comes to having a strategic plan for his team.
 

Gil Gunderson

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May 2, 2007
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He’s been decent with what he’s had to work with and all those last lotteries. He’s given some pretty questionable contracts but every GM has.
 

Frenzy31

Registered User
May 21, 2003
7,295
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Maybe I’m wrong but good luck dumping those Holl and Chiarot contracts within the next 2 years

They may have mid level 3rd/4th round picks at the dealine in two years. Or maybe they add solid depth and will allow some of detroits players to develop longer instead of being rushed.
 

AirGut

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Jul 1, 2019
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Unless you get a generational type player, crosby, mcdavid, hedman, ovie, bedard, MacKinnon, with a 1st OA pick then it takes significantly longer.

Dallas, Boston and Vegas (weird example) are examples of good clubs w/o top 3 picks let alone multiple top 3 picks, who have managed to be successful and drafting later.

That's it... 2(3) teams

The good teams
Tampa
Toronto
Colorado
Pittsburgh
Washington
Florida
Edmonton
LA
Carolina
NYR

Have all had top 3 picks and sometimes multiple.

NJ
Buffalo

Are up and coming teams who've also benefited from multiple 1st or 2nd OAs, w/o which would stil be irrelevant.

10 years is about right when you arent gifted McDavid or Crosby or MacKinnon and even then it still takes 5 years or more
Rangers haven't had true top-10 talent through the draft ever. Yeah on paper Kakko/Lafreniere are #1 and #2 OVR picks but they aren't superstars and that's what it takes in this league to be a true threat. Devils/Penguins/Lightning/Avalanche all got lucky and were able to get superstars in those draft years because those years were elite. Chicago this year cashed in and is an example of this. Devils in 2019 are another huge example of this.

point is, just because you draft in the top-3 it doesn't mean shit if it's just "one of those years" with prospects. You're right, it might even make you more of a laughing stock around the league when you end up with someone vanilla. That's the cruel reality of draft luck in sports.
 

Zetterberg4Captain

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Aug 11, 2009
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Maybe I’m wrong but good luck dumping those Holl and Chiarot contracts within the next 2 years

Why would they need to?
In 2 years, no
Ghost
Maata
Lindstrom
1 year left with Holl
1 year left with Chariot

They'll just play their contracts out or be waived

Rangers haven't had true top-10 talent through the draft ever. Yeah on paper Kakko/Lafreniere are #1 and #2 OVR picks but they aren't superstars and that's what it takes in this league to be a true threat. Devils/Penguins/Lightning/Avalanche all got lucky and were able to get superstars in those draft years because those years were elite. Chicago this year cashed in and is an example of this. Devils in 2019 are another huge example of this.

point is, just because you draft in the top-3 it doesn't mean shit if it's just "one of those years" with prospects. Might even make you more of a laughing stock around the league tbh when you end up with someone vanilla. That's the cruel reality of draft luck in sports.

Not gonna disagree

The fact remains, the NYR have had both a 1st and 2nd OA pick during their rebuild while Detroit has not had even one top 3 pick and only one top 5.

So... it takes more time

NY benefits from being NYC as well
 
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Connor McConnor

Registered User
Nov 22, 2017
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Why would they need to?
In 2 years, no
Ghost
Maata
Lindstrom
1 year left with Holl
1 year left with Chariot

They'll just play their contracts out or be waived



Not gonna disagree

The fact remains, the NYR have had both a 1st and 2nd OA pick during their rebuild while Detroit has not had even one top 3 pick and only one top 5.

So... it takes more time

NY benefits from being NYC as well
I only said that comment because another Wing fan thought he signed these contracts to dump them for assets at the TDL. I agree with you these were not signed to be dumped but rather to be kept (also pretty bad use of cap imo but not debilitating)
 
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Human

cynic
Jan 22, 2011
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Not a single one.

Probably should've thrown 6 and 7 year contracts at Graves and Mayfield so that we would have cap problems when the players that actually matter are well off their ELCs.

Honestly dunno how we're gonna make it, with guys like Edvinsson/Kasper/Wallinder still only making $900K 4 years from now.
Raise the cap space banner already…
 

jfhabs

Registered User
May 21, 2015
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Of course it's not easy to pull off a rebuild but there are some very exaggerated timelines here.

"At least 10 years"

"5 years to gather core, then 5 years for them to develope"

"Anyone thinking it doesn't take at least 10 years is crazy..."

A long period of time is still no guarantee for success and yes it's hard, but it's still very possible to do great in a few years less than 10, and to do better than the Wings have the past two years. What looked very promising has stalled a bit.
Possible, but you are likely very lucky (see Chicago with Bedard) or you aren't starting from scratch... i Pittsburgh doesn't trade any vets in the next 1-2 years, it could be a very long rebuild for example
 

Ricky Bobby

Registered User
Aug 31, 2008
8,458
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Spot on. People need to look back at Edmonton, Colorado, Buffalo and others, who had to move their young players because they either ruined them by not developing them, or had to trade them away because all they ever did was lose and were so tired of it. Those rebuilds lasted a decade or longer.

Carolina did it the right way as an example. You build from the backend out if you’re not winning lotteries for franchise players. Tampa did that in many respects. Remember the crap Yzerman took for Girardi and Coburn? Same as he’s taking for Chiarot and Holl.

The team already had Chairot, Wallman and Maataa to fill the veteran defensive Dman role.

The Wings messed up by not just signing a vet
Dman to a cheap 1 year league deal. Think names like Staal, Kulikov, etc., who will likely bring back something like a 3rd or 4th round pick at the deadline.

The additional money it cost to take on Holl vs. A 1 year 1 million dollar Dman = 2.4M in real dollars. 2.4M is about what it cost the Hawks to buyout out Bailey but gain a 2nd round pick.
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
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London
Oh please. Yzerman has always been one of those guys who received undeserved praise. Back in the 90's when the Wings focused on building a winner Yzerman was relegated to a secondary role while guys like Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Konstantinov were carrying the heavy load. Instead of calling him out his buddies from the hockey media and Hockey Canada started calling him a 2-way player and gave him undeserved awards like the Selke, which turned into even more of a joke of an award with him winning it, and the Conn Smythe. Anyone remembers how much he sucked at the 98 olympics ? Of course you don't, his buddies wouldn't dare to write it. There is a huge difference between a guy like Yzerman and a true winner like Joe Sakic or Sidney Crosby for example.

Yzerman is certainly not on a hot seat, which is why they are slowly turning ito what they were back in the 70s and 80s.
Typing this is a clear indicator that you didn't watch the Wings that much in the 90s. His peak in the 90s wasn't as high as Federov's best year. He wasn't as supremely consistent as Lidstrom, as physical as Vladdy or Shanny and didn't score as many goals as Shanny, but he was a top 3 scorer on the team every year in the decade (top 3 or 4 times), went over a PPG most seasons, was an excellent playoff performer, and perhaps most importantly was year after year the most likely to put the team on his back or make a crucial intervention when the other stars were being held off the scoresheet.

There's a reason all his teammates respected him, and why he remained the fan favourite even with all that other talent.
(and while he may not have been at his best at the 98 Olympics, I'm sure the Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe that year will have provided some consolation...

None of which has any bearing on how good he is as a GM

I think the major issues with the Yzerplan is bad draft lottery luck and moves that don’t show direction or building towards an identity.

It’s insane that the Wings haven’t landed a 1st or 2nd overall pick through this stretch. That just sucks.

Next, Yzerman seems to spend too much in FA rather than making smart trades that will make them competitive in the near future. He gets great value in his trades mostly, but he tends to spend in FA rather than trading for these pieces. I’m an Avs fan so I can mainly see it through their success. Where is the trade for the legit 2C (ie Kadri)? Instead he signs Copp and Compher who are very low end 2Cs at best. Where’s the trade for a top D man (ie Toews)? Chiarot, Holl instead? Granted, they Walman is a great find. Trade all this draft capital and prospect talent for something more sure.

Lastly, what is the identity they’re building towards? Seider is great, Larkin is very good (he’s a very high end 2C, low end 1C imo). They have solid young talent. But who are they? What is Red Wing hockey besides mediocrity?

I guess I just don’t get the “plan” of the Yzerplan.
A very reasonable take. I think the plan is that in the absence of elite talent due to lottery shafting, he's trying to make a team that is hard to play against, is full of 200 foot players and selfless guys and isn't getting shelled with the frequency of 2 seasons ago - so that this is the prevailing culture that the young talent grows into.

IF the core pieces all buy into this way of playing, it becomes a lot easier to carry a couple of free-wheeling offence only scorers and get them to be more responsible, once the core is formed.

Essentially the problem is that the team isn't far enough along with its best prospects to justify making the splash for those scorers via trade at this point, unless a great deal presents itself or via some low risk reclamation projects.

Its been hurt by Bertuzzi being so injured the last couple of years and Vrana going off the deep end with what ever struggles he was dealing with, particularly as Vrana when fit and mentally in the right shape had an amazing goals per 60 record for the wings, on pace for 30-40 goals a season. That falling apart really hurt the plan and set things back a year.

Detroit has missed the playoffs for 7 straight seasons. I suppose you could say the rebuild started 4 years ago but not many players have graduated to the NHL club since last you made the playoffs.

A pity that you didn’t collect more big pieces while tanking. This UFA infusion looks like a signal that Detroit wants to start competing and build a winning culture (but no more premier 1st rounders coming).

I guess my question to you is do you have enough prospect talent in the pipeline to make this a very successful rebuild?

Yeah, Sadly Ken Holland's last few drafts were disaster class material bar a couple of exceptions. Of course Jury's out on most of Yzerman's picks, but the early evidence is encouraging.

As for prospect talent level - probably not enough as no obviously elite pieces, but in all honesty its just too early to know.

No they aren’t. Going into last year they had Vrana and Bert both looking healthy. Those two were penciled in to generate more offense than the whole lot of what was signed yesterday.
Yeah - their respective availability issues hit the team hard. Vrana seemed to fit this team fantastically until whatever happened off ice happened. Last season the wings lost somewhere between 30-45 goals with those two compared to their replacements. Set us back.
 

TageGod

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Aug 31, 2022
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Sabres rebuilt, tore down, and rebuilt again in the time Detroit is rebuilding. Maybe we will win a cup before Detroit finishes the rebuild. Yzerman making excuses.
 
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Mister Ed

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Dec 21, 2008
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Sabres rebuilt, tore down, and rebuilt again in the time Detroit is rebuilding. Maybe we will win a cup before Detroit finishes the rebuild. Yzerman making excuses.

How many top 3 picks did Detroit have during their rebuild? And how many top 3 picks did Buffalo have? Starting from a farther starting point isn't making excuses.
 

TageGod

Registered User
Aug 31, 2022
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How many top 3 picks did Detroit have during their rebuild? And how many top 3 picks did Buffalo have? Starting from a farther starting point isn't making excuses.
Am I supposed to excuse Detroit's eternal rebuild because they didn't win lottery's? Maybe he should have stopped trying to galaxy brain all his picks.
 
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