norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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YZERMAN: "We’re building a nucleus of young prospects that are going to be part of this team."
- Thread starter Henkka
- Start date
Euro Twins
Healthy Scratch
- Mar 19, 2016
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So your goal is to be the maple Leafs?
I think the goal should be winning a cup by any means necessary.
Whether that be a LAK/St.Louis style win or a Colorado/Florida
I couldn't care less if we are top 5 and get knocked out in the first round but I'll be stoked if we're 13th overall and make the finals.
SirKillalot
Registered User
Then please go cheer for another team. Who wants to sit all season to look at crap hockey to just a one hit season wonder in the playoffs?
Yes if you made the playoffs many years as a contender with failure, you'd take that, but no I would rather have a team playing good technical and interesting hockey than run and bang puck luck Torts game.
- Sep 16, 2020
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Henkka consistently spoon feeding the plan to these numpties that think we will be at our best with bumpkins like chariot on the team. Lol. Thank you. Once a year you do this break down for the ones who lack the frontal lobe and like to regurgitate headlines from people who know nothing about building teams.
So your goal is to be the NYI?
The delusional logic spewed at times here is insane..
Nobody wants to be a team that losses..but yes, the top teams, top 5, statistically both compete for and win more championships then bottom 5 (playoff) teams...
How is this even a discussion?
You wanna increase your odds of competiting for and winning a cup year after year...be a top team...that's it...case closed
jaster
I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
- Jun 8, 2007
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Aside from you describing virtually no one I've seen on this forum (people said the Wings are at their best with players like Chiarot?).... FTFY.
Anyway, these roadmaps of how everyone in the system will fit in the future is fun and all (I did one), but they are also pointless. They never end up close to accurate, they usually overrate prospects and other players in the org, and they often insert the poster's preferences that fly in the face of how the org/NHL actually operates. Henkka's breakdown is no exception (a 4th line with Lombardi and Buchelnikov.... LOL).
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Euro Twins
Healthy Scratch
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Sounds like you should cheer for the leafs. That way you can cheer all year long and get an early summer.
I still cheer for my team win or lose. I'm not sure about you
No. The goal is to win a cup. Regardless of how it happens that makes it a success. He's I'd prefer to be a top 5 team in a few years. But that doesn't guarantee success.
I'm merely pointing out the end goal is to win a Stanley Cup and not be leafs
SirKillalot
Registered User
Well you sound like you cheer for The Isles and the Wild and have time off after easter.
Euro Twins
Healthy Scratch
- Mar 19, 2016
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I cheer for the wings and we haven't made the playoffs in 8 years.
- Sep 16, 2020
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This. Goal is to win. Not compete for the last playoff spot. Not over paying for the stamkos of the world is a good thing. Don't even think Stammer would have considered the wings anyways. If you don't see a clear improvement in the team year to year without having to give up draft capital then that's your point of view. I don't understand the impatience.
Also other teams fans should not dictate your POV on team building especially serial losers like the Canadiens, Sens Leafs. This time maybe our fan base can just stfu and watch and stop writing checks before we actually make the playoffs. Us losing 9 in a row last year had more to do with the team of players and less on management.
We have only seen Seider and Raymond from yzermans crop of players come through.
Ed is next. Bergrren and AJ will get proper looks too. Slowly these players will need to push the temporary short term guys out. That is what talent is supposed to do. Danielson and Kasper will be looking at the centers on the team and think I just gotta beat them out.
We are trying to build a club with a proper program. I don't think Boston is an awesome team to use because lack of silverware but they built 20 years of playoffs on one core. Everyone drafted ,minus the one brutal draft they had where they missed on our right all stars, is drafted to fit their culture. Just hang on a little longer and soon your narrative will change to wow we are making the playoffs and players x y z are still not even up from the prospect pool.
Clear trajectory up the standings to me. Missed the playoffs on last day. Imagine that version of Yzermans wings making the playoffs. Surely would have been the weakest on talent depth to do it.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
- Jul 10, 2014
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It seems like there are lots of assumptions and misunderstandings flying around.
Regular season and playoff success can both be important. Yes, top-5 caliber teams tend to have a talent advantage, and obviously Detroit wants as much talent as possible. But there are lots of ways to build a roster and this rebuild in particular has also been saddled with plenty of limitations (a very empty cupboard to start with, zero help from the lottery, etc.). Not to mention that the league is in a VERY different place with regards to the salary cap and structuring contracts than the last time Detroit had to really build a roster from the ground up.
Overall I get the sense that Yzerman is doing two things: 1) He's trying to just keep adding talent that respects his intended timeline (ideally through the draft and with trades/additions of younger players, but also using stopgap veterans to fill the holes as the kids develop). 2) While he's not going to say no to clearly superior talent, if a given situation has two similar solutions, he's trying to build a roster with specific strengths for a given style (shutdown defense and goaltending, both with size; two-way forwards; a forecheck and backcheck that helps win time of possession). And in addition to any on-ice preference he may have for this philosophy, it's likely an approach that is at or near the top of the list for long term success with the salary cap.
So in attempting to climb the mountain, the Wings have left the cellar and reached the bubble. It's ok to say that the next milestones are to make the playoffs, start learning what it takes to win there, and keep adding talent to maximize your chances to regularly attend the dance. None of that is an acceptance of your ceiling or reducing your END goals, just checking off more boxes along the way.
And yet, if I'm a GM of a playoff team who is always trying to keep adding talent, my thought process isn't, "Can this move get me closer to being a top-5 team, and thus have a better shot at a Cup?" My thought process is simply, "Would this move give me a better shot at a Cup?" And I actually think that's an important distinction, because tweaking a roster for specific needs to try to grind out 16 playoff wins isn't the same thing as tweaking a roster to go from 100 points to 110 points. It's a balance of getting enough talent that you're in a healthy spot in the standings, and getting enough chemistry and grit and fortitude so your talent has what it takes to try to run through that brick wall in the spring.
Like somebody mentioned earlier, it's constant evaluation and the plan updates on the fly with how each season and summer pan out. Hopefully they keep climbing until the mountaintop is within reach.
Regular season and playoff success can both be important. Yes, top-5 caliber teams tend to have a talent advantage, and obviously Detroit wants as much talent as possible. But there are lots of ways to build a roster and this rebuild in particular has also been saddled with plenty of limitations (a very empty cupboard to start with, zero help from the lottery, etc.). Not to mention that the league is in a VERY different place with regards to the salary cap and structuring contracts than the last time Detroit had to really build a roster from the ground up.
Overall I get the sense that Yzerman is doing two things: 1) He's trying to just keep adding talent that respects his intended timeline (ideally through the draft and with trades/additions of younger players, but also using stopgap veterans to fill the holes as the kids develop). 2) While he's not going to say no to clearly superior talent, if a given situation has two similar solutions, he's trying to build a roster with specific strengths for a given style (shutdown defense and goaltending, both with size; two-way forwards; a forecheck and backcheck that helps win time of possession). And in addition to any on-ice preference he may have for this philosophy, it's likely an approach that is at or near the top of the list for long term success with the salary cap.
So in attempting to climb the mountain, the Wings have left the cellar and reached the bubble. It's ok to say that the next milestones are to make the playoffs, start learning what it takes to win there, and keep adding talent to maximize your chances to regularly attend the dance. None of that is an acceptance of your ceiling or reducing your END goals, just checking off more boxes along the way.
And yet, if I'm a GM of a playoff team who is always trying to keep adding talent, my thought process isn't, "Can this move get me closer to being a top-5 team, and thus have a better shot at a Cup?" My thought process is simply, "Would this move give me a better shot at a Cup?" And I actually think that's an important distinction, because tweaking a roster for specific needs to try to grind out 16 playoff wins isn't the same thing as tweaking a roster to go from 100 points to 110 points. It's a balance of getting enough talent that you're in a healthy spot in the standings, and getting enough chemistry and grit and fortitude so your talent has what it takes to try to run through that brick wall in the spring.
Like somebody mentioned earlier, it's constant evaluation and the plan updates on the fly with how each season and summer pan out. Hopefully they keep climbing until the mountaintop is within reach.
NOTHING guarantees a cup but being a top 5 team increases the odds.
Most everybody can see the Leaf shortcomings regardless of their regular season. Most GM's would course correct to actually contend. Citing them as why regular season success has no merit is overgeneralization.
It almost sounds like you are accepting having to be an outliar to win a cup versus a more traditional approach. Are you saying the rebuild is lacking talent and we will have to be the exception to the rule?
Gniwder
Registered User
Playoff hockey is different from regular season. The team needs to be built for it. That may or may not result in a top 5 finish, I really don't care. After 8 seasons without playoffs, I just want to see the team make some noise.
Unfortunately, this current roster looks like first round fodder. Stevie managed to build the softest team in the league.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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Not sure how they feel, but I would say yes, at least in the sense that the "traditional approach" now requires getting lucky as hell in the lottery, which is not an option for Detroit.
The Wings can still build a very good team. But I don't see that including the 100+ point center that many critics are clamoring for, since it's obscenely rare to find those outside the top 3 overall of the draft. And that's ok, because it looks like they're keenly aware of their own situation and are responding accordingly, focusing more on guys who are both capable on offense and a pain to play against than on favorites for the Art Ross Trophy.
Henkka
Registered User
You just need controlled caphits for most important positions, and Stanley Cup is a possibility.
It doesn't matter at all where do you draft. Draft well a better depth than anyone else, make trades and there it is.
Superior generational player like McDavid will:
A) make Nurse overpaid, thanks to inflated production
B) make Draisaitl overpaid, thanks to inflated production
C) make Bouchard overpaid, thanks to inflated production
So that one superstar will give a chance, but at same time he is the main factor to close all Cup windows.
Funny how only cost-controlled and underpaid contracts at Edmonton are made by Ken Holland. Hyman, RNH and Kane.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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Fair.
Here are the current roster players I expect to be at least somewhat relevant when they actually contend:
Larkin
Seider
Raymond
Edvinsson
Debrincat
(maybe) Rasmussen
I don't consider any of the first four soft, and I'm not even sold on keeping Rasmussen into the contending years. So if you wanna call Debrincat soft, ok. But the bulk of the team that will be hoping to go deep in the playoffs is still developing, likely with a few other additions yet to be acquired via trade / free agency. If Seider and Edvinsson grow into the roles we expect, and Danielson / Kasper / Mazur / MBN each become even most of what their current trajectories indicate, it's suddenly very different.
I'm not at all concerned about the current level of toughness.
Gniwder
Registered User
Do people here not realize how much bigger Tkachuk is compared to Raymond/Kasper/Mazur? What are they gonna do in the playoffs? Polish Matt's visor with their 3000 grit sandpaper?
Not too worried on the defensive end, I agree Mo/Ed will anchor the back end for a while.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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Matthew Tkachuk is 6'2" 201lb. I'm not at all worried about the Wings being able to compete with him physically.
And if you're talking about Sloth... Ottawa's gotta make the show first.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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1) In 2024 Matthew Tkachuk threw 73 hits in 24 playoff games. That's 3 per game. On the receiving end, do you honestly believe that any of Raymond / Kasper / Mazur would just throw in the towel if they get bumped 2-3 times by Matty?
2) You're assuming that the biggest bully always wins the war. The battle maybe, but over an entire series nobody is completely without weaknesses. Maybe you can out skate him and he can't catch up to hit you. Maybe you get in as many late elbows and face washes as you can to get him off his game (or better still, in the box for retaliation).
The point is, facing a significantly bigger stronger opponent is not an automatic disaster.
Gniwder
Registered User
I just expect Kasper to get punched in the face when he does his stupid cross check in the back move, just like last preseason. Same with Mazur.
I liked that Raymond bulked up last summer, but he's not exactly pushing people around. He's still under league average weight for a forward.
"We’re building a nucleus of young prospects that are going to be part of this team."
Lol, is that supposed to be a revealing comment? The secret to the rebuild? It's meaningless. Even bad teams have a nucleus or the young makings of one.. At some point in their careers, every player in every team's nucleus was a young prospect. The nucleus Detroit is building "are going to be part of this team." That's a really profound statement. So is the stickboy and team dentist part of the team.
As was pointed out in a previous post, lineup speculation 4-5 years into the future is a meaningless exercise. It never turns out the way you think it might, at least not at that micro level of line and pair combinations. Being a "top five" team is just picking a number out of thei air, also meaningless The top five teams by point total changes every year by at least one or two teams, the top five that are best built for playoff success also changes every year and might not include more than one or two of the top five point teams. Roster turnover is a constant fact of life, as are injuries, failed coaches, bad luck. All you really want is to have a core group that is good enough to keep together and establishes a consistently high standard of play. Do that, and getting to a Cup final or two with that group at the heart of things is often just a result of injury luck, a couple of players having unexpectedly good seasons, a hot goalie, etc.
SY is not building a soft team, but that team isn't going to be ready to compete for 4-5 years. Until then he's trying to be competitive with place-holder rosters that are soft and inept defensively. It's mostly working in the sense that the team keeps getting more competitive and a bit more fun to watch, but even if it achieves the goal of ending the drought those place-holding teams aren't going anywhere in the playoffs. The only important thing is that the team is getting more competitive every year without sacrificing top prospects or first-round picks.
There are two tracks running simultaneously -- the long-term track with some obviously very good prospects; the short-term track with a team relying on bandaids to make the regular season somewhat interesting but fundamentally useless to long-term success other than keeping Larkin from going insane.
Looking ahead it's possible to project the Wings have about half a good team already signed (or will be) and drafted. Four or five guys playing now, the best 5-6 prospects who should show up within the next 2-3 years. That half-team could be pretty good. We're missing half a team. That TBD half doesn't have to be filled with really good players, but it's going to need to include 2-3 already established players currently playing elsewhere who can make a difference, and useful pieces among the rest.
Lol, is that supposed to be a revealing comment? The secret to the rebuild? It's meaningless. Even bad teams have a nucleus or the young makings of one.. At some point in their careers, every player in every team's nucleus was a young prospect. The nucleus Detroit is building "are going to be part of this team." That's a really profound statement. So is the stickboy and team dentist part of the team.
As was pointed out in a previous post, lineup speculation 4-5 years into the future is a meaningless exercise. It never turns out the way you think it might, at least not at that micro level of line and pair combinations. Being a "top five" team is just picking a number out of thei air, also meaningless The top five teams by point total changes every year by at least one or two teams, the top five that are best built for playoff success also changes every year and might not include more than one or two of the top five point teams. Roster turnover is a constant fact of life, as are injuries, failed coaches, bad luck. All you really want is to have a core group that is good enough to keep together and establishes a consistently high standard of play. Do that, and getting to a Cup final or two with that group at the heart of things is often just a result of injury luck, a couple of players having unexpectedly good seasons, a hot goalie, etc.
SY is not building a soft team, but that team isn't going to be ready to compete for 4-5 years. Until then he's trying to be competitive with place-holder rosters that are soft and inept defensively. It's mostly working in the sense that the team keeps getting more competitive and a bit more fun to watch, but even if it achieves the goal of ending the drought those place-holding teams aren't going anywhere in the playoffs. The only important thing is that the team is getting more competitive every year without sacrificing top prospects or first-round picks.
There are two tracks running simultaneously -- the long-term track with some obviously very good prospects; the short-term track with a team relying on bandaids to make the regular season somewhat interesting but fundamentally useless to long-term success other than keeping Larkin from going insane.
Looking ahead it's possible to project the Wings have about half a good team already signed (or will be) and drafted. Four or five guys playing now, the best 5-6 prospects who should show up within the next 2-3 years. That half-team could be pretty good. We're missing half a team. That TBD half doesn't have to be filled with really good players, but it's going to need to include 2-3 already established players currently playing elsewhere who can make a difference, and useful pieces among the rest.
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norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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Getting punched in the face is pretty much Mazur's objective on every shift. Same with Kasper.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Tampa's the 6th best team of the last 5 years. Failure confirmed!
The "traditional" approach is getting extremely lucky in the draft lottery, basically. Maybe with a helping of a fluke superstar in the later rounds as well.
It's been beyond obvious for at least 3-4 years that this rebuild was not going to land multiple top 3 picks and we would need to build differently.
Who cares about the current roster. First round would be a success, let's have some patience before making it cup-or-bust.
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