GDT: Your New Jersey Devils vs. New York Islanders, 7 PM, MSGSN/MSGSN2

[SteveCangialosi123]

Vitek is making fewer saves than the fully washed and broken down version of Cory who was on a worse team.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

sorokin, after getting smoked last night, has a .913 sv%, the lowest of his career (and better than vanecek has ever had)

vanecek is at .879

so what exactly are you doing here

Didn't even understand what my point was. Typical.

 

[MadDevil]

So I was at the game, and caught some highlights after. Vitek did make some good saves too. I think its easy to forget when the goals go in.

I do agree - at some point.... the summary of his season is that he's giving up goals. I just don't know that I blame him for last night.

I'm not fully in faith with Akira. But I agree he hasn't been given as long of a leash, and should be given some more starts.

This wasn't his worst performance but it didn't do anything to inspire confidence in him either. It would be one thing him being shaky or outright bad for a few games but this is going back to last season with him now. He's lost the benefit of the doubt with most of us at this point. That doesn't mean he can't play better and regain it but he has to show it first.

 

[njdevil26]

Vitek just seems to snowball when he lets in a soft goal.

 

[glenwo2]

Jack doesn't even acknowledge Bahl

Jack was like "Not now, Kevin. I'm doing my celly."

 

[devilsblood]

so I'm not a Vitek fanboy. I agree looking at this season, he is the sum of all his parts. And I do think we need better goaltending.

But how many of the 4 can we fault him on? Just in last night's game.

1) A powerplay goal,
2) a breakaway goal,
3) a fluke backhand by a diving Clutterbuck in front
4) a bang-bang pass where the puck was already deflected back by the time he was moving

I guess the Barzal breakaway?

I'm never laying the blame on the goalie for a breakaway.

None of the goals last night are on Vitek, and that's one thing he has going for him this year, he's not letting in softies.

Is it true he is not making many big saves? I do think that is accurate. But we also give up a ton of glorious scoring chances.

Sal noted the other night we were 4th worst in uncontested shots from the slot. Last night he posted a breakaway/odd man rush stat, that I only caught in passing, so I didn't get the full details, but we were below water, which for a high octane team, indicates we are giving up a ton of opp's........despite the often posted stats which want to paint us as a tight knit defensive team.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

Vitek just seems to snowball when he lets in a soft goal.

I think goaltending is very volatile, but one thing I think is important is how strong they are mentally and Vitek just doesn't seem to have that.

 

[MadDevil]

Jack was like "Not now, Kevin. I'm doing my celly."

He's following in the steps of greatness...

 

[AfroThunder396]

It brings me no joy to pile on Vitek, he's a great guy and was genuinely pretty good for most of last year. Being the 2nd goalie in franchise history to get 30 wins in a season is pretty remarkable tbh. But he has been dreadful this season, among the worst in the league. I don't know if it's confidence, conditioning, whatever. But at some point he simply has to make a save.

Now we're in a tricky situation, because benching him means that we have to put a ton of pressure on a kid goalie with ~30 NHL starts to save our season. But if we don't bench him, we're forced to basically score +4 goals a game in order to have a chance of winning. Rock and a hard place.

And it's not like Schmid has earned anything this year, in fact I'd argue that some of his softies have been more egregious than the goals Vanecek has allowed. We're just not talking about it because of how little he's been playing.

This is basically a repeat of 2021-22, except now we actually have the offensive firepower to to at least stay in some of these games.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

I'm never laying the blame on the goalie for a breakaway.

None of the goals last night are on Vitek, and that's one thing he has going for him this year, he's not letting in softies.

Is it true he is not making many big saves? I do think that is accurate. But we also give up a ton of glorious scoring chances.

Sal noted the other night we were 4th worst in uncontested shots from the slot. Last night he posted a breakaway/odd man rush stat, that I only caught in passing, so I didn't get the full details, but we were below water, which for a high octane team, indicates we are giving up a ton of opp's........despite the often posted stats which want to paint us as a tight knit defensive team.

Like Like Like

He's following in the steps of greatness...

LOL this was hilarious

 

[forceten]

I think the arguments for and against Vitek and the goaltending in general are mostly overly simply which is disappointing. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

Yeah, the team has had more defensive breakdowns than the average team, leading to more high danger changes against the goalie (breakaways, n-on-1s, open in slot).

It's ALSO TRUE that every team has these - regardless if it's #1 or #32 in the league. Perhaps not as many as New Jersey and in some cases more.

The point is that right now, the vast majority of those high danger chances go in. That's where people are frustrated in those situations. It's not unreasonable to complain about a breakaway, when EVERY breakaway goes in. There should be some expectation that the goaltender "bails out" the skater defense in these situations, and the feeling is that Vitek (and Akira this season) have not done that with any regularity.

Also, the number of soft goals - goals that are not breakaways, n-on-1s, open slot shots - is unacceptable. That's the "make a save!" frustration. A guy from the point, fluttering in, or a shot going through, or off the goaltender and in. These are the "bad goals".

When you COMBINE the infrequency of the "big save" - the bailout of the team's breakdown - with the frequency of the "bad goal" - and the further tendency of Vanacek to mentally lose himself and let in a soft goal VERY SOON after a goal, regardless of quality - you have a team that simply cannot rely on the person whose entire point of existence is not to sell popcorn or hot dogs but to keep the puck out of the net as the last line of defense. You have goaltenders putting the team reliably 3-4 goals down from the jump.

(edit: Vitek has an almost physically obvious mental issue when he struggles. You can see it in how he stands in net, moves in response to shots, etc. There's a physical "tell" to his mental state. I think his athleticism is fine, he can be a .910 goalie in this league, but his mental state is poor for an athlete and it undermines him.)

That is not sustainable. That's the problem. Yes we can point to a bad game from the probably #2 goalie in the league (Sorokin). That certainly happens. These are humans not machines. You can point to other teams that have defensive breakdowns, too. They may not do it as consistently or often or egregiously as we do. Single data points are not interesting or useful. It's performance over time. What's the trend.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

I think the arguments for and against Vitek and the goaltending in general are mostly overly simply which is disappointing. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

Yeah, the team has had more defensive breakdowns than the average team, leading to more high danger changes against the goalie (breakaways, n-on-1s, open in slot).

It's ALSO TRUE that every team has these - regardless if it's #1 or #32 in the league. Perhaps not as many as New Jersey and in some cases more.

The point is that right now, the vast majority of those high danger chances go in. That's where people are frustrated in those situations. It's not unreasonable to complain about a breakaway, when EVERY breakaway goes in. There should be some expectation that the goaltender "bails out" the skater defense in these situations, and the feeling is that Vitek (and Akira this season) have not done that with any regularity.

Also, the number of soft goals - goals that are not breakaways, n-on-1s, open slot shots - is unacceptable. That's the "make a save!" frustration. A guy from the point, fluttering in, or a shot going through, or off the goaltender and in. These are the "bad goals".

When you COMBINE the infrequency of the "big save" - the bailout of the team's breakdown - with the frequency of the "bad goal" - and the further tendency of Vanacek to mentally lose himself and let in a soft goal VERY SOON after a goal, regardless of quality - you have a team that simply cannot rely on the person whose entire point of existence is not to sell popcorn or hot dogs but to keep the puck out of the net as the last line of defense. You have goaltenders putting the team reliably 3-4 goals down from the jump.

(edit: Vitek has an almost physically obvious mental issue when he struggles. You can see it in how he stands in net, moves in response to shots, etc. There's a physical "tell" to his mental state. I think his athleticism is fine, he can be a .910 goalie in this league, but his mental state is poor for an athlete and it undermines him.)

That is not sustainable. That's the problem. Yes we can point to a bad game from the probably #2 goalie in the league (Sorokin). That certainly happens. These are humans not machines. You can point to other teams that have defensive breakdowns, too. They may not do it as consistently or often or egregiously as we do. Single data points are not interesting or useful. It's performance over time. What's the trend.

Ok, so what's the solution? More blaming on Vitek?

 

[NjDevsRR]

Some of y’all need to watch other games. These chances the Devils give up happen league wide

 

[Guttersniped]

Sorokin was not very good last night but this is willful misunderstanding of why Vanacek gets criticized, which is that the latter never makes the save on a high danger chance, as opposed to sometimes with Sorokin.

Most aren't excusing the defensive woes or denying that the majority of goalies in the league aren't especially good and it's a bit of a crap shoot. All they're saying is that a goalie who can give them a chance at a league average makes it much easier to stay in games.

He also shit his pants after the Barzal goal. The last goal wasn’t his fault but he was just flailing around at that point, he was a f***ing mess.

There’s symbiotic relationship with the bad goaltending and team shitting its pants after the Barzal goal. They collectively have to be better but they also know a bunch of GAs are potentially coming and they panicked.

If we had a rock solid shutdown line/pair to settle things down maybe it would better but we don’t.

 

[FinnishDevil]

Brendan Smith has gone from a zero to a hero in less than a week. What a legend.

 

[Guttersniped]

Some of y’all need to watch other games. These chances the Devils give up happen league wide

What? No way other teams give up cross ice passes AND breakaways in the same game. It’s not the 1980s sir.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Didn't even understand what my point was. Typical.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but your point is that we get on Vanecek and call him bad for giving up goals (because we’re ignoring the context) while at the same time we do not say sorokin sucks when he gives up goals.

And my point is, yes individual goals can be the teams fault, but when a dude spends 1/4 the season giving up a GAA of 3.5 and a sv% of .879 behind a team that has middle of the road xGA numbers he doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. We’re not a uniquely bad team in giving up chances against that are wildly high danger. Data doesn’t support it, eye test doesn’t support it.

Sorokin had a bad game, it happens, but I PROMISE you he’d stop a hell of a lot more goals than VITEK if he were playing on this team.

Ok, so what's the solution? More blaming on Vitek?

The solution is play less vitek until we find a replacement for him or he remembers how to tend goal in a way that doesn’t destroy the team.

 

[devilsblood]

Some of y’all need to watch other games. These chances the Devils give up happen league wide

Well I watched one of the best goalies in the league give up 5 last night. Allowed two 2 on 1 goals. Allowed a cross ice one timer(if Bratt didn't miss the net we could have had another) and a couple rebound goals. So it's not like I'm totally isolated.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Well I watched one of the best goalies in the league give up 5 last night. Allowed two 2 on 1 goals. Allowed a cross ice one timer(if Bratt didn't miss the net we could have had another) and a couple rebound goals. So it's not like I'm totally isolated.

Bingo. Isles are a terrible defensive team so far this season and yet Sorokin has a .915 save %, Varlamov a .930 save %. All the while Isles being 5th worse in expected goals against. Devils are 7th best.

Asking for .900 on this Devils team is not outlandish to ask for

 

[MasterofGrond]

Well I watched one of the best goalies in the league give up 5 last night. Allowed two 2 on 1 goals. Allowed a cross ice one timer(if Bratt didn't miss the net we could have had another) and a couple rebound goals. So it's not like I'm totally isolated.

Yeah and how has he done in the other 13 games he’s played this year

Better than vitek?

 

[devilsblood]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but your point is that we get on Vanecek and call him bad for giving up goals (because we’re ignoring the context) while at the same time we do not say sorokin sucks when he gives up goals.

And my point is, yes individual goals can be the teams fault, but when a dude spends 1/4 the season giving up a GAA of 3.5 and a sv% of .879 behind a team that has middle of the road xGA numbers he doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. We’re not a uniquely bad team in giving up chances against that are wildly high danger. Data doesn’t support it, eye test doesn’t support it.

Sorokin had a bad game, it happens, but I PROMISE you he’d stop a hell of a lot more goals than VITEK if he were playing on this team.


The solution is play less vitek until we find a replacement for him or he remembers how to tend goal in a way that destroy the team.

I'm again going to point out the stats Sal has been feeding us lately. 4th worst in uncontested shots from the slot. Last night he posted a stat which I'm pretty sure showed a lot more breakaways and odd man rushes allowed(was in the kitchen so only half saw it).

So I'd argue that the eye test does support it. And I'd also argue, the public advanced stat sites are lacking.

 

[forceten]

Ok, so what's the solution? More blaming on Vitek?

There are several solutions, actually, and we don't even know the behind-the-scenes to see if they've been attempted:

1. Replace the goaltending coach. I don't think this one is working out and we've had success with prior coaches (did they retire?)
2. Sports-related therapy for players HAS worked before and I think Vitek needs it more than anyone I've seen
3. "rehab" stint in the minors after an "injury" to get him some confidence, playing time.
4. Play Schmid more if we feel like he's the more reliable, solid goaltender
5. Make a trade for a player in the situation I described in the Devils Team Thread - where there are players blocked by other players (Jaros/Askarov, Markstrom/Wolf, etc.)
6. Attempt to buy a KHL established goalie aged 26-28 6'+ who has .915+ (there are several) and no NHL rights owned.
7. Work on the defense pinching and simplify the system to provide more shot support and reduce number of breakaways, n-on-1s, and open guys in the slot. It may reduce offense but it won't matter as it could be offset by 1-2 fewer GA/night.

There's lots to do. But continuing to play Vanacek without doing any of these is the definition of insanity.

He may not be the only problem but only someone being willfully ignorant would suggest he isn't A problem.

 

[devilsblood]

Yeah and how has he done in the other 13 games he’s played this year

Better than vitek?

Well he is better then Vitek. We all should know this.

Bingo. Isles are a terrible defensive team so far this season and yet Sorokin has a .915 save %. Isles are 5th worse in expected goals against. Devils are 7th best.

Asking for .900 on this Devils team is not outlandish to ask for

But do the Isle's give up that many truly high quality chances against each game? I don't know. But I figure they don't.

I do know one of the best goalies got smoked when his team did give up those chances.

 

[MadDevil]

I'm again going to point out the stats Sal has been feeding us lately. 4th worst in uncontested shots from the slot. Last night he posted a stat which I'm pretty sure showed a lot more breakaways and odd man rushes allowed(was in the kitchen so only half saw it).

So I'd argue that the eye test does support it. And I'd also argue, the public advanced stat sites are lacking.

I'd argue your starting goaltender needs to make a save on a difficult shot occasionally and not look shaky as f*** the rest of the time.

 

[Hisch13r]

I think he looked shaky all night before he was pulled.

He was on his belly and crawling around a lot. Not the sign of a confident goalie at all.

I commented on this when it was still 1-1 in the 2nd period. He was making almost every save he made look more difficult than it should have, which is why I think it appeared that he was making good saves.

He’s so bad right now I bet he gets scored on a lot in practice and pre game warmups.

I noticed that too. For this game in particular I won't necessarily put it too much on him because while he wasn't giving them "The Big Save" I also think the chances were just really bad. In general though he's a problem.